Fixing Martial Artists

[Metaphysician]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

As regards active caps

 

Str 20 4d6

offencive strike +4d6

MA DC levels +2d6

MA Skill levels +4, +2d6

MA weapon +2d6

 

Thats 14d6, with nothing blatently illegal or over the top, and it costs 60pts when you buy 15pts more of manuvers

 

Also does 12d6 as a normal strike, equal to bricks to have Hit there AP limit of 60 str.

 

So?? If the DC cap for the character is 12d6, than this is just as out of line as building a character with 75 strength.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Its not so much MA thats a problem, a normal human with a sledgehammer does about 10d6-12d6 with a haymaker.

 

MA just higlights the problem

 

I mean if the rules say a Human MA can kick in tanks then the GM has to deal with that absurdity somehow.

When we are talking "normal" humans, there is little actual absurdity in the Hero System. Normals are restricted by things like maximum damage when using weapons, and the damage from Martial Arts should always be restricted for such characters. A normal human with a sledge hammer will never do more than 7d6 (assuming the stats for a Great Club with a STR Min of 15 and STR Min Cannot Add Damage, and characters with a maximum of 20 STR). Martial arts are easily restricted by disallowing Damage Classes, which is suggested in FREd and the UMA. Once a "normal" becomes a Champions character, he stops being "normal"; He's a superhero and should be typically be treated accordingly. Even then, normal human (NPC thugs and such) can still be treated as using the Heroic rules when determing damage.

[Kristopher]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

It is a concept thing. Karate Kid is a classic example of a character who somehow uses Martial Arts to punch so hard he can crack Intertron, or stun Superboy... whatever. To my mind... as much as I liked the character as a kid... I'd never allow that "concept" in my world. It's TOO unrealistic. It goes beyond the fantastic, to the ridiculous.

 

On this, we agree.

[JmOz]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

It is a concept thing. Karate Kid is a classic example of a character who somehow uses Martial Arts to punch so hard he can crack Intertron, or stun Superboy... whatever. To my mind... as much as I liked the character as a kid... I'd never allow that "concept" in my world. It's TOO unrealistic. It goes beyond the fantastic, to the ridiculous.

 

It's a matter of taste, that's all.

 

Or it is a different game mechanic: The Karate Kid should have a huge Find Weakness, you reduce something to defence 1 and it is going to take a lot of damage...

[JMHammer]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

If I'm willing to suspend disbelief enough to enjoy fiction where Superboy flies (among a zillion other powers), Saturn Girl reads minds, Matter-Eater Lad can chow a tunnel through solid rock, and Dawnstar can survive in outer space with no visible means of support, I certainly don't have any problems with Karate Kid fighting Superboy almost to a draw and breaking out of "unbreakable" inertron bonds.

 

In terms of game mechanics, I just don't want every martial artist to be able to do that. So Karate Kid gets a batch of Hand Attack on top of whatever martial maneuvers and martial damage classes he purchases.

 

Just the way I'd do it. Whatever feels best to you is the way to go in cases like this.

John H

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Thread derail: It would be so much fun to see this actually happen in a game. Some little kid shoot Superman with a sucker tip launcher as a prank and thanks to the most improbable series of rolls EVAR cold cocks him on National TV. Just imagine the scrabble and bids on the super villian circuit for that toy gun.

 

Or for the kid.

 

 

How about if it were the Scarlet Witch shooting Supes with a toy pistol?

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Martial Artists are already screwed enough by the rules compared to Bricks. Do we really need to add another handicap to them?

[Kristopher]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Matter of opinion.

[KA.]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I think one reason this comes up is that Martial Arts is one of the few areas where reality and SuperHero Fiction must share the same space.

We have all seen demonstrations where Martial Artists break bricks, even stacks of bricks, have boards broken over them, etc. etc.

We also know that, no matter how skilled, these guys can't punch through the side of an armored car. For one thing, metal stretches, it doesn't break very well, which means that you can't just hit it with more force than it can handle and "snap" it, like a brick or a piece of wood.

However, we are not talking about "real" martial artists that just have a little more STR or training than what we are used to.

In a world where exposure to radiation gives you superpowers, rather than deadly cancer, I have no problem with the idea that someone can "train" until they can punch through a tank.

Otherwise I would be obligated to force every other character to pass this sort of "reality" test:

"You shoot energy out of your eyes? Ridiculous, you would just melt your cornea."

"You can run at 60 MPH? The cartilage in your knees would be destroyed on the first day."

"Fly? What's your wingspan? Where do you get lift? What about thrust? Your body doesn't exactly have any "control surfaces" you know, how could you steer?"

"Teleportation? Are you insane? The first time you did it you would create a vacuum behind you that would shatter the eardrums of anyone within 50 feet. And when you arrived on the other end your body would be shattered by the impact of displacing that volume of air at 14.7 PSI."

 

Really, unless you run a 50 point normals campaign, all of it is basically silly.

I don't see tank-punching Martial Artists as any more goofy than anything else.

 

Not making a comparison to anyone here, this just reminded me of something funny that happened to me once.

Just before Star Trek Voyager started its run, a guy at work was discussing it.

He said that, even though he liked Star Trek, he would never watch it, because the Captain was a woman.

He said that was too unrealistic.

I said: "You mean the fact that they can travel faster than light, teleport themselves through space, and meet hundreds of different alien species, none of that bothers you, but you think a woman Captain is unrealistic?!?"

I just did not know what else to say.

 

There is a phrase in the bible that refers to something like:

"Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel" that seems to apply.

 

KA.

[Vorsch]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I have a problem with people that are not superhuman in there description, doing blatently impossible things.

 

Punching through tank armour is fine for a brick not fine for a MA.

 

In how many team comics is the largest attack the MAs punch ( Ok Karate Kid ).

[KA.]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I have a problem with people that are not superhuman in there description, doing blatently impossible things.

 

Punching through tank armour is fine for a brick not fine for a MA.

 

In how many team comics is the largest attack the MAs punch ( Ok Karate Kid ).

 

I can see your point, but I look at it like this.

If someone is "normal" then they should be built on the scale of the "Competent Normal" from Fred, which means they have about 75 points to put into Characteristics, "Powers", and Skills.

(And yes, you could put 75 points into a 15 d6 Energy Blast, but that is not really what you would consider "normal", is it?)

Someone who is built on 250+ points is Superhuman, to me.

Even if you put most of your points into Characteristics that did not exceed NCM, and the rest into PS:Bowling, you would be a "superhuman".

You may just be the top prize winner on the Pro Bowlers Tour, but your are still "superhuman".

Even if you put all the points into Background Skills, you would still be "The Living Library", or "Super-Sage".

So, when someone tells me that a 350 pt. MA shouldn't be able to do this or that because he is "normal" it does not make sense to me.

When you are built on that many points, it is nearly impossible to be "normal".

I don't consider Donald Trump to be any kind of hero, but even if you use him as an example of someone who put all their points into Bases and Vehicles (big houses and real estate investments and yachts), he still is not considered to be a "normal" guy by most people.

 

I may be oversimplifying your case, Vorsch, and if I am, I apologize in advance, but I have seen some GM's post here that are extremely hung-up on this sort of thing.

Player: "Here's my Character sheet for the Martial Artist Guy."

GM: "He is too powerful to be a normal human!"

Player: sighs "Okay, then he's a Mutant Martial Artist Guy."

GM: "Okay, that will be fine."

 

I just can't always fathom how something that does work in the real world, like Martial Arts training, when taken to a comic book setting is an unacceptable way to gain powers. But something that would never work, like being bitten by a radioactive teddy bear, is accepted as okay, because it is "more realistic".

 

To me it makes more sense for things to be able to "work better" than they can in the normal world, than for things that never would work, to work.

 

Again, Vorsch, I am not really directing this at you. I have no idea how you run things. Your post just brought up the thought.

 

KA.

[ThothAmon]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Two phrases for y'all:

 

Character Concept

Campaign Rules

 

If MA rules are broken then fix them by all means.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

How about if it were the Scarlet Witch shooting Supes with a toy pistol?

 

Well, given that she all but wiped out the Avengers recently. . .

 

[Vorsch]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I can see your point, but I look at it like this.

If someone is "normal" then they should be built on the scale of the "Competent Normal" from Fred, which means they have about 75 points to put into Characteristics, "Powers", and Skills.

(And yes, you could put 75 points into a 15 d6 Energy Blast, but that is not really what you would consider "normal", is it?)

Someone who is built on 250+ points is Superhuman, to me.

Even if you put most of your points into Characteristics that did not exceed NCM, and the rest into PS:Bowling, you would be a "superhuman".

You may just be the top prize winner on the Pro Bowlers Tour, but your are still "superhuman".

Even if you put all the points into Background Skills, you would still be "The Living Library", or "Super-Sage".

So, when someone tells me that a 350 pt. MA shouldn't be able to do this or that because he is "normal" it does not make sense to me.

When you are built on that many points, it is nearly impossible to be "normal".

I don't consider Donald Trump to be any kind of hero, but even if you use him as an example of someone who put all their points into Bases and Vehicles (big houses and real estate investments and yachts), he still is not considered to be a "normal" guy by most people.

 

I may be oversimplifying your case, Vorsch, and if I am, I apologize in advance, but I have seen some GM's post here that are extremely hung-up on this sort of thing.

Player: "Here's my Character sheet for the Martial Artist Guy."

GM: "He is too powerful to be a normal human!"

Player: sighs "Okay, then he's a Mutant Martial Artist Guy."

GM: "Okay, that will be fine."

 

I just can't always fathom how something that does work in the real world, like Martial Arts training, when taken to a comic book setting is an unacceptable way to gain powers. But something that would never work, like being bitten by a radioactive teddy bear, is accepted as okay, because it is "more realistic".

 

To me it makes more sense for things to be able to "work better" than they can in the normal world, than for things that never would work, to work.

 

Again, Vorsch, I am not really directing this at you. I have no idea how you run things. Your post just brought up the thought.

 

KA.

 

No offence taken, i just take it as a gm if the PCs are traped in a Steel room the player of the MA doesnt try and break out by sheer force. If the MA can easily do the same damage as the brick or EB character i feel somethings been lost in the translation.

 

This has been hashed out before, i just find it hard to believe that just cos Karate Kid can take out Mon El thats justification for Batman to have a chance against Superman in a straight fight. Some characters are ridiculous and most people seem to understand this, others view being in a world with superhumans is a excuse for anything.

 

my super agent could get 14d attacks, hes allowd 8 def by the rules, i dont play fantasy games but i suspect every character in them has lots of armour or magic protection. i may be wrong but i doubt it.

 

If its your mutant power to do this then fine. Most published mutants powers are stupid so wh am i to judge that as a rational. (I can controll magnetism for no particulary good reason....mutant power!)

[RDU Neil]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Or it is a different game mechanic: The Karate Kid should have a huge Find Weakness' date=' you reduce something to defence 1 and it is going to take a lot of damage...[/quote']

 

Y'know... IF they explained it this way. If they took the time to quantify the SFX of Karate Kid as to how exactly he does these amazing things that no other martial artist can do... ok... MAYBE I'd buy it. What I don't like is the throw away "He is a master martial artist!" as the reason why. That just shows a lack of even the most basic understanding of martial arts. Maybe I'm just too much of a realist, but I've studied, I've been in fights, and I know that while there is much to be gained by learned technique and throwing a punch in the "right way"... it ain't super powers.

 

Now... if you get into the "mystic" side of martial arts... where study has tapped into the hidden resevoir of ch'i energy or whatever... NOW you are talking about a good rationale for super powers. If they talked about Karate Kid summoning inner strength that allowed him to move at super speed, or form ch'i force around his hand, or harden his skin to diamond density... whatever... THEN I could buy the idea that he has moved beyond human into the superhuman. For KK, this is never done... it's ignored, and each reader can assume whatever they want. It lack internal consistency and a measurable effect. Ok for a cheesy comic... but you can't game without internal consistency and a measurable effect.

 

If KK is finding weakness with superhuman abilty... they should say that... not just allow us to assume it... and then explore his use of that ability like any superpower. It's that DC Silver Age model KK was built under that is just silly (like Matter Eater Lad, etc.) that undermines him as a "legitimate" example of a character.

 

YMMV

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Matter of opinion.

 

 

This one isn't actually a matter of opinion.

 

+2 DC +2 PD costs a MA 10 pts. (The PD is something virtually all MA would buy up anyway)

 

+10 Str 0 end -5 Stun is also 10 pts.

 

Both buy the same martial arts maneuvers and the same dex/spd.

 

Now the brick and the MA do the same amount of damage and both spend 0 end. However, the brick still has the advantage of +2 Rec, +2" leap, 4 times lifting capacity, +5 casual str, and more damage with grabs/martial grabs. The MA only has the advantage that his DCs add to martial flash/nnd/killing maneuvers.

 

The brick easily win out if you look at the numbers. The only reason that MAs are even semi-competitive with bricks in game play is that many GMs place dex/spd limits on bricks relative to MAs.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I can see your point, but I look at it like this.

If someone is "normal" then they should be built on the scale of the "Competent Normal" from Fred, which means they have about 75 points to put into Characteristics, "Powers", and Skills.

(And yes, you could put 75 points into a 15 d6 Energy Blast, but that is not really what you would consider "normal", is it?)

Someone who is built on 250+ points is Superhuman, to me.

Even if you put most of your points into Characteristics that did not exceed NCM, and the rest into PS:Bowling, you would be a "superhuman".

You may just be the top prize winner on the Pro Bowlers Tour, but your are still "superhuman".

Even if you put all the points into Background Skills, you would still be "The Living Library", or "Super-Sage".

So, when someone tells me that a 350 pt. MA shouldn't be able to do this or that because he is "normal" it does not make sense to me.

When you are built on that many points, it is nearly impossible to be "normal".

I don't consider Donald Trump to be any kind of hero, but even if you use him as an example of someone who put all their points into Bases and Vehicles (big houses and real estate investments and yachts), he still is not considered to be a "normal" guy by most people.

 

I may be oversimplifying your case, Vorsch, and if I am, I apologize in advance, but I have seen some GM's post here that are extremely hung-up on this sort of thing.

Player: "Here's my Character sheet for the Martial Artist Guy."

GM: "He is too powerful to be a normal human!"

Player: sighs "Okay, then he's a Mutant Martial Artist Guy."

GM: "Okay, that will be fine."

 

I just can't always fathom how something that does work in the real world, like Martial Arts training, when taken to a comic book setting is an unacceptable way to gain powers. But something that would never work, like being bitten by a radioactive teddy bear, is accepted as okay, because it is "more realistic".

 

To me it makes more sense for things to be able to "work better" than they can in the normal world, than for things that never would work, to work.

 

Again, Vorsch, I am not really directing this at you. I have no idea how you run things. Your post just brought up the thought.

 

KA.

 

I actually disagree with a number of points here, but primarily in the use of "bitten by a radio active spider" The fact is, that worked forty years ago... but over the years characters origins have changed. I'm not saying silly stuff isn't rampant, but there is at least an ATTEMPT to provide a bit more of an internally consistent/slightly more logical origin. The meta-gene in the DCU is a classic example. Rather than just say, "This person fell into a vat of acid and turned into THE DRIP!" they attempt to say, "This person fell into a vat of acid. While this would kill most people, it activated his latent meta-gene, which enable him to survive through massive metabolic reconfiguration which transformed into THE DRIP!"

 

Even the new Ultimate universe tackles this, but setting up the fact that most of the origins are linked through attempts to actually genetically alter humans to create superhumans.

 

Not any less fantastic... but based on the maturity of the audience... a little less ridiculous.

 

These days, enough people have studied martial arts... it is common in our culture now... that the "I'm a martial artist!" doesn't fly as enough of a reason why someone would be superhuman. We need to take it to the next level. Why does character 1 gain 350 points through study of martial arts... and local guy at his dojo who has also studied a life time is only at 50-75 points. I need something else, or it doesn't make sense to me. If you want to punch through steel, give me a good reason (fantastic though it may be) why you can, where most martial artists can't? C'hi attack? Internal C'hi focusing your skin to steel hardness itself? What? If that is the case, then we both understand that the "concept" of the character has changed. They are not just "a martial artist" but are now super human. It's a different story.

 

The point is, it really is about "concept" more than points in terms of what is "normal" and what isn't. I can have a 500 point rich guy with all kinds of skills and wealth and equipment... and he is still "normal" because nothing about him can't be explained through real world concepts. So if I say my character is a "normal with lots of martial arts skills" that is a very different concept than "I have become superhuman through my mastery of inner C'hi abilities that came through martial arts training."

 

Both are viable characters... both can exist in the same world... both are martial artists... but the latter can justify punching through steel... the former can't.

 

Concept... and maintaining internal consistency and VERISIMILITUDE with that concept, are the big issues.

[nexus]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I think you're both saying the same thing, but in different ways. RDUneil wants to see that sort of thing explicitedly stated, "My character has surpassed human ability threw the focus of his c'hi" or whatever. KA seems to just assume that must be the answer to what the characters stats say he can do like with other superpowers (unless you ger some of limitation you can do exactly what the numbers say no matter how "Irrealistic").

[Mentor]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

This one isn't actually a matter of opinion.

 

+2 DC +2 PD costs a MA 10 pts. (The PD is something virtually all MA would buy up anyway)

 

+10 Str 0 end -5 Stun is also 10 pts.

 

Both buy the same martial arts maneuvers and the same dex/spd.

 

Now the brick and the MA do the same amount of damage and both spend 0 end. However, the brick still has the advantage of +2 Rec, +2" leap, 4 times lifting capacity, +5 casual str, and more damage with grabs/martial grabs. The MA only has the advantage that his DCsore successfully. add to martial flash/nnd/killing maneuvers.

 

The brick easily win out if you look at the numbers. The only reason that MAs are even semi-competitive with bricks in game play is that many GMs place dex/spd limits on bricks relative to MAs.

I think the balance is achieved through SFX and role play. I would require a whole lot of convincing as GM that a brick concept is going to justify 7 SPD and 33 DEX and five matial maneuvers no matter how good an origin story you tell, especially in light of wanting every PC to be relevant to the importance of the team operations.

 

Additionally, as Blackjack is wont to say often when referring to the Brick he plays in our campaign, the job of the Brick is not only to dish out the most damage in a fight, the Brick's job is also to absorb the most damage so that the more fragile characters like the MA can operate more successfully. All character design should be done in the context of operating with a team and in balance with the game universe the Gm(s) create.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I think you're both saying the same thing' date=' but in different ways. RDUneil wants to see that sort of thing explicitedly stated, "My character has surpassed human ability threw the focus of his c'hi" or whatever. KA seems to just assume that must be the answer to what the characters stats say he can do like with other superpowers (unless you ger some of limitation you can do exactly what the numbers say no matter how "Irrealistic").[/quote']

 

Exactly. I don't want to assume anything. The stats are secondary to me. I don't look at the stats and then say "Hmmm... must be a superhuman!" I say, "Who is this character? What is their concept?" and then I look at the stats to see if they match that concept. IMO, I would look at a character sheet that had Batman doing 15d6 punches and say "That doesn't match the concept of Batman, as a non-superhuman who has studied and mastered a vast number of skills in his obsession with fighting crime."

 

I guess I can see where someone would build the stats first... basing them on being "competitive" in a mathematical way with other charcters... and THEN coming up with a concept to kind of support that... but that kind of thinking is so alien to me, it is very difficult. I think there are 350 point martial artists characters that could be a straight up threat to a Superman-ish type character... and 350 point martial artist types that would be lucky to land a punch, let alone actually do stun to that same Superman-ish type. Concept dictates this... not points.

[Pegasus]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Thread derail: It would be so much fun to see this actually happen in a game. Some little kid shoot Superman with a sucker tip launcher as a prank and thanks to the most improbable series of rolls EVAR cold cocks him on National TV. Just imagine the scrabble and bids on the super villian circuit for that toy gun.

 

Or for the kid.

 

If I ever saw that happen, I would have to give up gaming forever. No moment could ever come close to that again.

[KA.]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I actually disagree with a number of points here, but primarily in the use of "bitten by a radio active spider" The fact is, that worked forty years ago... but over the years characters origins have changed. I'm not saying silly stuff isn't rampant, but there is at least an ATTEMPT to provide a bit more of an internally consistent/slightly more logical origin. The meta-gene in the DCU is a classic example. Rather than just say, "This person fell into a vat of acid and turned into THE DRIP!" they attempt to say, "This person fell into a vat of acid. While this would kill most people, it activated his latent meta-gene, which enable him to survive through massive metabolic reconfiguration which transformed into THE DRIP!"

 

Even the new Ultimate universe tackles this, but setting up the fact that most of the origins are linked through attempts to actually genetically alter humans to create superhumans.

 

Not any less fantastic... but based on the maturity of the audience... a little less ridiculous.

 

These days, enough people have studied martial arts... it is common in our culture now... that the "I'm a martial artist!" doesn't fly as enough of a reason why someone would be superhuman. We need to take it to the next level. Why does character 1 gain 350 points through study of martial arts... and local guy at his dojo who has also studied a life time is only at 50-75 points. I need something else, or it doesn't make sense to me. If you want to punch through steel, give me a good reason (fantastic though it may be) why you can, where most martial artists can't? C'hi attack? Internal C'hi focusing your skin to steel hardness itself? What? If that is the case, then we both understand that the "concept" of the character has changed. They are not just "a martial artist" but are now super human. It's a different story.

 

The point is, it really is about "concept" more than points in terms of what is "normal" and what isn't. I can have a 500 point rich guy with all kinds of skills and wealth and equipment... and he is still "normal" because nothing about him can't be explained through real world concepts. So if I say my character is a "normal with lots of martial arts skills" that is a very different concept than "I have become superhuman through my mastery of inner C'hi abilities that came through martial arts training."

 

Both are viable characters... both can exist in the same world... both are martial artists... but the latter can justify punching through steel... the former can't.

 

Concept... and maintaining internal consistency and VERISIMILITUDE with that concept, are the big issues.

 

RDU Neil,

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, this post left me chuckling.

I am not intending to get snarky, you have not in any way been rude to me, and I do not intend to be rude to you.

But reading your post led me to the conclusion that if, for example, someone in the DCU trained very hard for years they could come up with somewhere around a 75 point Martial Artist.

And someone with the meta-gene who trained very hard for years could come up with a 350 point Martial Artist.

 

In other words:

Player: "Here's my Character sheet for the Martial Artist Guy."

GM: "He is too powerful to be a normal human!"

Player: sighs "Okay, then he's a Mutant Martial Artist Guy."

GM: "Okay, that will be fine."

 

Just substitute meta-gene for Mutant, and there you go.

 

But, I think nexus is pretty much correct. We are not really that far apart.

 

I have not read too many new comics in the last few years, mostly because I, being the age I am, find it almost physically painful to hand over $4 for a comic that is fewer pages, and has more ads, than ones I used to buy for 25 cents. I buy TPB's and collections, but not many individual comics.

 

But my problem is, an attempt to find a non-silly explanation for an essentially silly problem.

 

The world of comics is obviously not the real world. It just isn't! I have no problem accepting that. Things work there that don't work here. Things happen there that don't happen here. No problem.

 

But an attempt to make is seem like that world is "just like this one with one minor difference" usually comes off as goofy, to me.

 

I don't know if you have ever been exposed to Soap Operas, in the sense of actually watching them, but I have. (Long story short - One TV in the house, my Mom liked to watch them, I came in after school and they were on for an hour before things like Speed Racer, etc. So, being the lazy kid I was, I just plopped down and waited.)

 

Anyway, Soap Opera world is nothing like the real world either.

 

Everyone sleeps with everyone, but no gets VD or pregnant unless the plot calls for it. But since people do get pregnant, we must assume the sex is unprotected.

 

If you have an argument with your wife, and go out to any random bar out of the 1000 bars in your town, the woman who has been trying to sleep with you will not only be there, but will be such good friends with the random bartender that he will spike your drink so she can take you to her place and pretend she had sex with you.

 

If a bad person wants to slip into the hospital, and reprogram the MRI so that it looks like your daughter is pregnant, they can, even with no medical or computer knowledge, or background in espionage. (They don't really use MRI's to determine pregnancy, well that's okay too.)

 

Kids are born as cute babies, disappear for a month or so and come back school age, they go off to school for a year and come back as screwed up oversexed teenagers. Meanwhile, their parents haven't aged at all.

 

If a bad person turns good, they immediately forget everything they ever did, right down to falling for the exact same tricks they used to pull on the good people. (ex. Bad Girl pretends to be pregnant to break up Good Guy's marriage. Even though there is no proof that they even slept together, Good Guy's wife instantly believes her and wants a divorce. Bad Girl is eventually found out, feels bad, and reforms. A month later, she has found a Good Guy 2 of her own, and marries him. When Bad Girl 2 shows up and claims that Good Guy 2 got her pregnant, Formerly Bad Girl instantly believes it with no proof and asks for a divorce.)

 

If a person decides on a new career, any career from Spy to Model to Doctor to Astronaut, it takes less than six months for them to be fully trained and in a top position in the field.

 

Now I don't watch soap operas now that I have my own home, my own TV, and thank goodness, a wife who doesn't like them either. But for a moment, let's say that the producers of soap operas come to us for a solution to their "reality" problems.

 

1) The town water supply is tainted with LSD.

2) A virus is running rampant that causes people to act irrationally.

3) The town is built on an Indian Burial Ground that has cast a curse of confusion.

4) The townspeople are all actually aliens that are only acting out the most extreme forms of what they think human behavior is like.

5) Mutation

 

What I am getting at is basically "Ask a silly question, get a silly answer."

 

Once you decide on a world where people get superpowers and fly around blasting things, it is not going to make perfect sense.

That does not mean that you cannot have continuity.

I think that the characters can and should be internally consistent.

If you have a heroic guy, he should not suddenly start killing babies for sport or pushing wheelchairs down the expressway.

But as far as trying to have a superhero world where the source of the powers makes some kind of "sense", I just think is a silly exercise.

It is like trying to figure out how a Muppet's digestive system works.

Muppets aren't real. They don't have digestive systems. There is nothing to figure out.

Superpowers aren't real. They don't exist. Once you have people who fly under their own power, and can get shot in the face with a bazooka and live, you are outside the bounds of reality.

Slapping something like the meta-gene or genetic manipulation or whatever on there is really just a sop to the fans who want to feel more "sophisticated".

They are comic books. They aren't always going to make sense!

If companies really wanted to take a stab at reality, they would not retcon reality to totally change everything every few years.

What a great argument: "You should believe what we are telling you now, because everything we told you before was a lie. This time we're serious! Unless you don't like serious, in which case this is all a big joke and we will throw it away again."

 

Even though I am somewhat of an oldtimer, I must admit to preferring the old school explanation. It just makes more sense to me.

 

Why can Cannon Man shoot cannonballs out of his arm?

Because he is a superhero and this is a comic book!

 

That is the one explanation that I have always found logically consistent.

 

All the others seem to fall short.

 

KA.

 

P.S. This turned into a bit of a rant. Even though your name is on it, it isn't really directed at you. If you prefer a more focused approach to why some people develop powers, that is your absolute right. That is part of the fun of Hero, you can do it any way you want.

I am like the guys that liked foorball back in the days of leather helmets and the flying wedge. I think some of it depends on what you grew up reading.

 

I just think that modern comics take themselves both too seriously and not seriously enough. Sure, they want to come up with some "reasonable" source for powers, but things like "Oh, by the way, the character that has been portrayed as the most honorable being in the universe is really a child molester." they have no problem with. Powers make sense, but the actions of characters don't. I like it better the other way around.

[Blue]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Just make two martial artists and duke it out already. Two men enter, one man leaves! It's the law of thunderdome. You DO respect the law, don'tcha?

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I think the balance is achieved through SFX and role play. I would require a whole lot of convincing as GM that a brick concept is going to justify 7 SPD and 33 DEX and five matial maneuvers no matter how good an origin story you tell, especially in light of wanting every PC to be relevant to the importance of the team operations.

 

Additionally, as Blackjack is wont to say often when referring to the Brick he plays in our campaign, the job of the Brick is not only to dish out the most damage in a fight, the Brick's job is also to absorb the most damage so that the more fragile characters like the MA can operate more successfully. All character design should be done in the context of operating with a team and in balance with the game universe the Gm(s) create.

 

 

That's exactly my point. It takes GM intervention to equalize bricks and MAs. The rules as written give a huge edge to bricks over MAs, all other things being equal.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

That's exactly my point. It takes GM intervention to equalize bricks and MAs. The rules as written give a huge edge to bricks over MAs' date=' all other things being equal.[/quote']

 

Of course, it takes player concept and GM intervention to make the whole concept of bricks and MA's in the first place. There's nothing in the rules as written that prevents a "brick" from buying martial maneuvers to get those lovely bonuses, or that prevents a "martial artist" from buying up an incredible strength.