Shapeshifting

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

...

 

Interesting attitude.

 

Most constructive.

 

You've completely convinced me. I mean I balked at some of the personal insults there, but now I see that it was just done to make me a better person. Hopefully one day everyone who plays HERO will agree, and that day will last a thousand years.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Interesting attitude.

 

Most constructive.

 

You've completely convinced me. I mean I balked at some of the personal insults there, but now I see that it was just done to make me a better person. Hopefully one day everyone who plays HERO will agree, and that day will last a thousand years.

 

Hmmm.

 

I don't think your martyrdom here is completely warranted, given your own admitted testiness in the previous post, and the straw man that is your last sentence certainly isn't warranted.

 

That said, I certainly didn't mean to escalate any negativity in this discussion, and I apologize for having done so.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Hmmm.

 

I don't think your martyrdom here is completely warranted, given your own admitted testiness in the previous post, and the straw man that is your last sentence certainly isn't warranted.

 

That said, I certainly didn't mean to escalate any negativity in this discussion, and I apologize for having done so.

 

I really should get more sleep but these discussion boards...

 

Friends again,then?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Friends again,then?

 

Sure thing!

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Sure thing!

And suddenly we're in a Lifetime movie.

 

Sigh.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

One thing about Shape Shift that I think could use clarification (perhaps in the Ultimate Metamorph) is what Shape Shift vs. Sight gets you as opposed to Shape Shift vs. Touch.

 

Many people seem to assume that to actually be the shape of the object you Shape Shift into you have to buy Shape Shift vs. Touch. I question that; the shape of an object can easily be determined by Sight, after all.

 

Taking Hugh's baseball example, let's say a character has bought Shape Shift vs. Sight (baseball) but not Touch (and he's bought enough Shrinking to be baseball-sized).

 

To me, the character is in fact the shape of a baseball. Anyone picking him up, however, will feel that he's warm, that he's covered in minute hairs, that he feels fleshy in some spots and bony in others, and they'll even be able to feel his heartbeat pulsating. They'll instantly know that this is *not* a baseball, but that doesn't mean that they can feel tiny arms and a head.

 

Does that seem reasonable, or would you all require the Touch group for the character's shape to be genuine rather than illusory?

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I think this is a reasonable path but unclear from the text. If the shape shift is not versus touch, how can we be "sure" the being is truly spherical and balanced? But more importantly, how would we distinguish between the shape being genuine versus illusory when we want either effect? Is the former only for Shape Shift and the latter only for Images?

 

Even given your example (which btw I think is a fine way to approach it, I'm just exploring it in the above paragraph), I think the bigger issue is that for the effect you describe, one still has to buy a slew of effects to counter it as opposed to the implications of the "good old days" of 4th. I think that's what disturbs me; with all other powers that are so physical, we say (in essence) "The power must be visible in 3 Sense Groups." . Shape Shift would be so much easier if it were expressed that way and either GM exception was in play beyond that or if the remaining Senses had higher points values if the real desire (as implied in 5th) is to prevent abusive "you can't figure out no matter what" Shape Shifts. It becomes easier to say "Mental, Smell/Taste, and Unusual" can be employed, and while this is less canonical from the text, in point of play the visibility is (in my experience and I daresay commonly) based on very specific SFX from which there is usually inferred a specific set of senses, which may or may not match precisely to the groups but rather represent a hybrid. Putting Shape Shift back into this camp greatly eases the burden on all, in large part because of the common practice in approach to power visibility as much as the actual textual rules. It also simplifies the situation in that it is straightforward to apply IPE to SS, there is no complication regarding senses when then applying IPE, it will work the same as for all powers. The entire discussion, I posit, becomes much simpler and yet we really didn't change the power that much.

 

I set aside costing as a separate issue.

[caris]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Well, since this is still going on, I'd like to voice one of my other, but much less compelling complaints with the new version. The FAQ's application of effects to the Touch groups could lead to some really nasty problems with the real Sense Affecting Powers. OK, according to the FAQ, if I have Shape Shift to a human sized sphere with the Touch Group, Radar and Sonar would perceive me as a sphere.

 

Now, one of my first thoughts when I saw that was does this mean that a Darkness vs. Touch, will get Radar and Sonar? Should the Touch Sense Group count as a Targeting Sense Group? The situation this creates makes me uncomfortable, because it makes the rules seem less internally consistent to me.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

*checks the FAQ*

 

Wow, the FAQ has a lot more about Shape Shift than I remembered. In fat, I'd say it resolves the amibguities of the Power quite clearly.

 

Caris, I think the "Shape Shift vs. Touch fools non-Discriminatory Radar" can be assumed to be a Shape Shift only ruling, given the nature of that Power. I'd ask Steve if you were unsure, though.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Even given your example (which btw I think is a fine way to approach it, I'm just exploring it in the above paragraph), I think the bigger issue is that for the effect you describe, one still has to buy a slew of effects to counter it as opposed to the implications of the "good old days" of 4th. I think that's what disturbs me; with all other powers that are so physical, we say (in essence) "The power must be visible in 3 Sense Groups."

 

Well, that's what's done with all Powers that aren't defined as Sense-Affecting. Shape Shift is defined as Sense-Affecting, so the question is whether that's appropriate.

 

I think it is. It seems to me that the primary purpose of a shapeshift is deceptive. Any other benefits of shapeshift can easily be simulated with other Powers if that's all I'm after. The only benefit to *looking* like something else (or sounding, or smelling, or feeling...), rather than simply having the abilities of something else, is to fool other people into thinking that I am that something else.

 

If it's meant to fool the senses, it should be defined as Sense-Affecting. And if it's defined as Sense-Affecting it should interect with the senses just like other Sense-Affecting Powers do: on a Group by Group basis.

 

EDIT: Actually, I'm wrong. Shape Shift isn't defined as Sense-Affecting. That does make it a valid question as to why it interacts with Senses differently than other non-Sense-Affecting Powers. Perhaps it should be Sense-Affecting.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Andrew, good point on the FAQ, I forgot to look. It troubles me a little when a rule has to be routinely hand-waved, as in shoving Radar directly over to be "Touch", though it doesn't bother me greatly in the end. I think the issue remains, as you mention, as to whether this should be a Sense-Affecting power. The FAQ doesn't change my mind (in particular as I think elegance in this matters as stated earlier), but it's good reading.

[caris]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Caris' date=' I think the "Shape Shift vs. Touch fools non-Discriminatory Radar" can be assumed to be a Shape Shift only ruling, given the nature of that Power. I'd ask Steve if you were unsure, though.[/quote']

 

I don't have a problem with the idea of treating Shape Shift vs. Touch is a unique situation. It would have been nice if that statement had been included in the FAQ, and hopefully it will be incorporated into Revised 5e. I'm sorry, but it still does not change the fact that it makes the rules inconsistent. Why does Shape Shift vs. Touch affect Radar, but Darkness vs. Touch doesn't? Game balance. Well, why is it unbalancing for Darkness, but not Shape Shift?

 

This in turn goes back to my original problem with the current set up. The current set up almost makes the existing write up (a full page in Fred, and probably more in revised 5e) useless for determining the cost. OK, I have a character who bought Shape Shift vs. Touch and I tell the GM that I want to make my skin feel cold and clammy. Now, does my IR signature change? How about Detect Tempeture of Objects, Ranged, Discriminatory, Analyze?

 

We can keep coming up with ideas of how if we are making real physical changes with Shape Shift that the change should impact multiple senses. Heck, accounting for even a few Detects that an actual physical change could make would make the Shape Shift less than viable as a power choice.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Touch something. Close your eyes and touch something. What can you feel?

 

You can feel the shape, the texture, hardness, the temperature and any movement or vibration. If you pick it up you get a feel for the weight, although that is also a function of muscle feedback (does that come under the touch sense group or something else?).

 

The problem with shape shift being based on senses is that HERO doesn't have enough granularity in sense mechanisms. It is far better than most, which more often than not ignore senses almost entirely, but it doesn't have enough.

 

If you could shape shift against touch into a giant baseball bat (so we don't need shrinking), someone just using touch should feel a rigid smooth item of a familiar (although very large) shape and temperature. It is still.

 

Now look at the shape shifted baseball bat. Shape shift against sight was not bought, so you look at it, and your sight group linked IR detection sees that it is warmer than you thought - it apparently has two different temperatures. Moreover, it doesn't look like a baseball bat...it has hands and a face and is clearly covered in skin and hair. What shape does it appear to be? Presumably human shaped. If it was otherwise, i.e. it appeared very tall and thin then it could use that to hide behind lamp posts, and we didn't pay the points for that. The texture looks wrong and the colour is all off.

 

If you listen you hear a heartbeat...which is not possible because the sound would be transmitted through the flesh as vibration, and our touch sense already knows that the thing is not vibrating.

 

OK scrap that and let's look at sight, so to speak. You see the overall shape and colour. Colour is important. If someone with shape shift (sight group only AND imitation) doesn't actually change shape but does change colour to match the background they become effectively invisible...but we can't do that as Invisibility is already used for chameleon powers, but they've got to be able to do it: if you can shape shift to appear to the sight group to be a wall then that includes apparent colour and texture, not just overall shape.

 

Each individual sense contains a lot of different ways of perceiving the environment and they often overlap (heat, vibration, as above). The senses work together to form an overall picture of the world. The system does not (and should not) define senses closely enough to account for the breadth of sensing ability of individual senses, or the overlap, so having a power like shape shift based on altered perceptions is always going to cause an enormous amount of confusion, even when we have been playing this version for 10 years. If a power is this confusing to understand and impliment then I think there must be something wrong with it.

 

If you don't believe me, look how long this thread is.

 

If you can change shape, actually change shape, it HAS to affect every sense OR PART OF A SENSE that detects reflected energy or actual mass. I can't even begin to imagine how to build that. Try it. I bet I (or someone with more imagination) can think of a sense that SHOULD detect shape that you've missed. Even if you get them all, all it takes is someone to buy spacial awareness and plonk it in an unusual sense gruop, and you've missed it. It really shouldn't be that difficult (or expensive) to build a power that is really quite simple in concept.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

To post, or not to post, that is the question...

 

I know that some people are simply never going to agree on this because of underlying differences in game system design philosophy. Here is mine, expressed in a way I've never tried before, which may be clearer to some (and dare I hope, has a tiny chance to actually convince someone):

 

If I want to make a regular gun, using HERO System rules, I would notice a power called "Ranged Killing Attack" and think, 'That sounds like exactly what I need!' And indeed it is. I can then add some modifiers to it to fine tune the power into precisely what I want. If "Ranged Killing Attack" was not capable of building a gun, wouldn't you say that there is something wrong with the RKA power? You might say that the power "isn't doing its job" if it can't be used to make a very obvious and simple example of an attack, used to kill, at range. The same as a hammer that doesn't work to drive nails into wood isn't doing its job as a hammer.

 

Likewise, If I want to write up Spiderman's webs using HERO, I would use the power Entangle. If Entangle couldn't be used to make Spiderman's webs, then I would conclude that there is something wrong with the Entangle Power as written, i.e., it isn't doing its job.

 

If I can't make Superman's flight using the Flight Power, then Flight wouldn't be doing its job.

 

If I can't make the Human Torch's fiery body using Damage Shield, then there is something wrong with that modifier.

 

And

 

If I can't make Plasticman's shape shifting ability with the Shape Shift power, then there is something wrong with that power.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean that Spiderman's Entangle comes with free Swinging, or that Human Torch's DS comes with free Absorption. But all the powers ought to provide benefit commensurate with the points spent on them. Shape Shift ought to provide some benefits of actually changing physical shape - which may include any of the following:

 

- Deceiving people into thinking you're an ordinary piece of furniture. (I'm an inanimate object - no threat and not a target, yet I can spy on you as long as you stay in the livingroom)

- Deceiving people into thinking you're a T. Rex. (I'm a much bigger threat to you than an ordinary guy in a costume)

Note that Plasticman can't really do either of these two things above.

- Change into a random wierd shape just to freak people out - or to elicit some other reaction.

- Forming yourself into a ladder so others can climb up you.

- Forming yourself into a canoe so you can float on water fairly easily, and even carry someone.

- Forming yourself into a bucket so you can be used to pick up water.

- Forming yourself into a "bucket with legs" so you can scoop up water yourself and carry it.

- Forming yourself into a man-sized airplane, so you can be thrown as a balanced, aerodynamic object.

- Squeezing yourself into a long narrow shape, so you can fit through small openings.

- Becoming jelly-like so you can ooze through a chainlink fence.

- Speading out your body mass so you fall slower, or to slow the fall of someone holding onto you (or vice versa) - slower terminal velocity, that is.

 

None of the above require Imitation or Cellular, which would mostly only increase the "deceive people" options. Notice that none of the above effects, other than the deceiving ones, can be written as a simple power. They all require a fairly complex set of Advantages and Limitations, many of which have to be custom-made. Rather than deal with all this minute complexity, I simply let the Shape Shift power do its job.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

What shape does it appear to be? Presumably human shaped. If it was otherwise' date=' i.e. it appeared very tall and thin then it could use that to hide behind lamp posts, and we didn't pay the points for that. [/quote']

 

No, it's baseball bat shaped. You can use Shape Shift to make yourself up to 10% taller and 10% thinner, and you certainly aren't required to keep your legs, head, and arms distinct.

 

If you listen you hear a heartbeat...which is not possible because the sound would be transmitted through the flesh as vibration, and our touch sense already knows that the thing is not vibrating.

 

Turning yourself into a baseball bat isn't possible either. Arguing what's realistically possible when it comes to Shape Shift is a no-go.

 

 

OK scrap that and let's look at sight, so to speak. You see the overall shape and colour. Colour is important. If someone with shape shift (sight group only AND imitation) doesn't actually change shape but does change colour to match the background they become effectively invisible...but we can't do that as Invisibility is already used for chameleon powers, but they've got to be able to do it: if you can shape shift to appear to the sight group to be a wall then that includes apparent colour and texture, not just overall shape.

 

 

There's a difference between being able to change color and being able to change color well enough to be effectively invisible. Regardless, per the FAQ Shape Shift can give bonuses to Stealth and Concealment, so there's where color-matching fits in.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

If I can make Plasticman's shape shifting ability with the Shape Shift power, then there is something wrong with that power.

 

Plastic Man's power isn't Shape Shift. Plastic Man's power is Plasticity. Shape Shift is merely one of the myriad applications he puts it toward.

 

The problem is not with Shape Shift the Power. The problem is with people thinking that Shape Shift is all they should need to be Plastic Man.

 

(And you can't use Entangle to make Spider-Man's webs. You also need Swinging, Gliding, HA, Stretching and/or TK, Flash, and a host of other powers. That's what effects-based systems are about. You sample the various Powers to build the final power you want. Plastic Man is no different.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

No' date=' it's baseball bat shaped. You can use Shape Shift to make yourself up to 10% taller and 10% thinner, and you certainly aren't required to keep your legs, head, and arms distinct.[/quote']

 

But the Shape Shift RealLemming described did not have Sight Group, only Touch Group. As such, he should not be able to change the manner in which he is perceived by sight, only the manner in which he is perceived by touch.

 

Which highlights the fact that Shape Shift as written requires a huge point expenditure to actually be able to change shape.

 

As well, is the cost reasonable? To shift shape to Sight, Hearing, Touch, Radio and Smell/Taste (19 points), any number of shapes (+20) as a zero phase action (+5 points) costs 44 points. And it fails against Unusual senses.

 

For 10% less, I can be desolid, walk through walls and am immune to most normal damage (albeit unable to attack back). For 11 more points, I can be completely invisible (the same five sense groups. and no fringe).

 

Comparing the above, Shape Shift seems vastly overpriced for the benefit of a disguise alone.

 

[PhilFleischman: Plastic Man commonly does hide in plain sight - no one seems to realize the red chair with a yellow stripe is unusual.]

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Plastic Man's power isn't Shape Shift. Plastic Man's power is Plasticity. Shape Shift is merely one of the myriad applications he puts it toward.

So? Spiderman's power isn't Entangle, it's Webbing. Entangle is merely one of the myriad applications he puts it toward.

 

The problem is not with Shape Shift the Power. The problem is with people thinking that Shape Shift is all they should need to be Plastic Man.

Which people are those? I'm certainly not one of them. I never said SS was the only power Plas needed.

 

(And you can't use Entangle to make Spider-Man's webs. You also need Swinging, Gliding, HA, Stretching and/or TK, Flash, and a host of other powers. That's what effects-based systems are about. You sample the various Powers to build the final power you want. Plastic Man is no different.)

That's what I already said! Yes, I would allow an any shape SS to form a ladder that other's could climb, but if he wants the ladder to reach from the ground to the top of a ten-story building, he would need Stretching as well (or Growth), and probably some extra STR. Yes, I would allow him to form a bucket to carry water, but he couldn't carry more than he could with his STR, nor could he carry acid or boiling water without buying the appropriate defenses (or taking the damage). Yes, I would allow him to form a canoe, but he couldn't support the weight of more than he could with his STR, nor could he paddle faster than his usual inches of Swimming. etc.

 

Hooray for effects-based systems! I'm all for 'em. But for 44 points, I want to be able to do more than just "deceive senses," which I could do with Images, No Range for a lot fewer points.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

But the Shape Shift RealLemming described did not have Sight Group, only Touch Group. As such, he should not be able to change the manner in which he is perceived by sight, only the manner in which he is perceived by touch.

 

 

Not so. The fact that he hasn't bought it vs. Sight simply means that people aren't fooled into thinking he's a baseball bat when they look at him. It doesn't mean he doesn't look different than a normal human. The FAQ quite clearly states that Shape Shift vs. Touch changes a character's physical form.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

That's what I already said! Yes, I would allow an any shape SS to form a ladder that other's could climb, but if he wants the ladder to reach from the ground to the top of a ten-story building, he would need Stretching as well (or Growth), and probably some extra STR. Yes, I would allow him to form a bucket to carry water, but he couldn't carry more than he could with his STR, nor could he carry acid or boiling water without buying the appropriate defenses (or taking the damage). Yes, I would allow him to form a canoe, but he couldn't support the weight of more than he could with his STR, nor could he paddle faster than his usual inches of Swimming. etc.

 

For the record, I more or less agree with all of this, with the only question being whether the SFX of the Shape Shift warrant it (illusionary Shape Shifts obviously would not).

 

Hooray for effects-based systems! I'm all for 'em. But for 44 points, I want to be able to do more than just "deceive senses," which I could do with Images, No Range for a lot fewer points.

 

Not to the extent that Shape Shift fools them, though.

 

I think comparing the costs of Shape Shift and Invisibility would be more instructive. Shape Shift (any shape) can be as or more functional then Invisibility.

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

The dichotomy for me is very simple.

 

I buy Shape Shift vs Touch. That's it. One sense.

 

Everyone seems to agree that this means my shape actually changes. If my shape has actually changed, why does it not appear so to Sight?

 

To a more granular degree, Sight is based on touch. A radiation bounces off the physical shape of something (in this case, my altered shape) and rebounds back into someone's eye.

 

If my shape has actually changed, how could it possibly not FEEL like it has changed?

 

This makes absolutely no sense (no pun intended). Either my shape has changed, or it hasn't. To say my shape has changed to Touch but not to Sight, is contradictory and irreconcilable. By this definition alone, SS is not longer a Body Affecting Power. Its a Sense Affecting Power that duplicates, to all primary game mechanics, the Images Power.

 

I can understand wanting to add some kind of ability to add additional senses (eg Smell, Unusual, etc) but those should be handled as adders or advantages. I can understand wanting to limit the scope of Shape Shift. Maybe a SS is visible to some unusual group or something. In this case SS should be applied with a few limitations.

 

The entire power should not have been completely scrapped and rebuilt with its entire foundation altered.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

The dichotomy for me is very simple.

 

I buy Shape Shift vs Touch. That's it. One sense.

 

Everyone seems to agree that this means my shape actually changes. If my shape has actually changed, why does it not appear so to Sight?

 

Because without it, everyone who looks at you will think "That's a dude in the shape of a chair/baseball bat/dog. Gross!"

 

Nobody will be fooled into thinking you're anything but what you are: a guy who can mold his body like putty. Not so useful for hiding or sneaking around.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

(snip) If you can change shape' date=' actually change shape, it HAS to affect every sense OR PART OF A SENSE that detects reflected energy or actual mass. I can't even begin to imagine how to build that. Try it. I bet I (or someone with more imagination) can think of a sense that SHOULD detect shape that you've missed. Even if you get them all, all it takes is someone to buy spacial awareness and plonk it in an unusual sense gruop, and you've missed it. It really shouldn't be that difficult (or expensive) to build a power that is really quite simple in concept.[/quote']

 

Just left the last part intact to be clear which post I'm referencing - very well done RealLemming, very well done.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

If you can change shape, actually change shape, it HAS to affect every sense OR PART OF A SENSE that detects reflected energy or actual mass. I can't even begin to imagine how to build that. Try it. I bet I (or someone with more imagination) can think of a sense that SHOULD detect shape that you've missed. Even if you get them all, all it takes is someone to buy spacial awareness and plonk it in an unusual sense gruop, and you've missed it. It really shouldn't be that difficult (or expensive) to build a power that is really quite simple in concept.

 

That's easy. Multiform.

 

I mean, honestly, if your shapechange is really so thorough that no possible exercise of any sense can possibly see through it (Detect Flesh won't work, cause I'm made of wood, Detect Human won't work, cause I'm actually a dog) then your stats should change to accomodate these physical, mental, and spiritual changes. That's Multiform.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Ah well, vive le difference.

 

Mind you, if Images had a 10 or 15 point adder 'Perfect (no automatic PER roll to detect)', we wouldn't need Shape Shift at all, would we? I mean, reasoning from effects-wise.

 

One other thing, if you did turn yourself into a ladder, assuming you are about 6 foot tall, the maximum you could make it with Shape Shift would be about 6 foot 8 inches. Sure other people could climb up it, but...well, it would have to be a funny looking ladder to accomodate all that mass!