Shapeshifting

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Plastic man - I see what you mean, but I'd say that we had a sight and touch shapeshift - you can see that he is a different shape, afterall - with a limitation that it is obvious that it is him (-1/2, maybe) - he can't use it to disguise himself or hide in any meaningful way, it is far more a SFX for his other powers. I'm still unclear how a touch only shapeshift would work: and that is my problem with the power as written. I'm an experienced player, reasonably imaginative and flexible. Liked the new shapeshift in principle when I bought FRED. Then I played it, and it just seemed...difficult...unnecessarily so.

 

I mean it can do so much more than just changing your shape: you can change your pheremonal signature to throw bloodhounds off the scent, but that didn't feel like it should necessarily be in a shapeshift power.

 

I'd like a power that did what it said on the box, and whilst I'm all for appropriate rationalisation, maybe another power that dealt with fooling senses. Despite my earlier rant about images being more useful, they can't so the pheremone thing - it would be prohibitively expensive to make it persistent and uncontrolled, whereas, presumably, once a scent trail has been laid down it stays that way permanently (or does it shange back to your normal scent too, when you do...) I AM SO CONFUSED.

 

And that is my objection to this. Whilst you can make it work, it is not intuitive. If HERO hets slated it is becsue it is difficult to use. This power really does not help.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Plastic man - I see what you mean, but I'd say that we had a sight and touch shapeshift - you can see that he is a different shape, afterall - with a limitation that it is obvious that it is him (-1/2, maybe) - he can't use it to disguise himself or hide in any meaningful way, it is far more a SFX for his other powers. I'm still unclear how a touch only shapeshift would work: and that is my problem with the power as written. I'm an experienced player, reasonably imaginative and flexible. Liked the new shapeshift in principle when I bought FRED. Then I played it, and it just seemed...difficult...unnecessarily so.

 

I mean it can do so much more than just changing your shape: you can change your pheremonal signature to throw bloodhounds off the scent, but that didn't feel like it should necessarily be in a shapeshift power.

 

I'd like a power that did what it said on the box, and whilst I'm all for appropriate rationalisation, maybe another power that dealt with fooling senses. Despite my earlier rant about images being more useful, they can't so the pheremone thing - it would be prohibitively expensive to make it persistent and uncontrolled, whereas, presumably, once a scent trail has been laid down it stays that way permanently (or does it shange back to your normal scent too, when you do...) I AM SO CONFUSED.

 

And that is my objection to this. Whilst you can make it work, it is not intuitive. If HERO hets slated it is becsue it is difficult to use. This power really does not help.

I think the idea of it being vs Sight with the Limitation of "it's obviously him" (whether -1/2 or whichever being debatable, but sounds about right to me) makes more sense.

 

But personally, I'm staying with how 4th does it along with how I've always done it (there's some ways to detect Shape Shift; if the player doesn't want to invent such in his SFX, I will for him), though I'll probably recost upward a tiny bit (like 5 points), and I've already stated to people they could use the Adders in 5th as they make sense.

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I'm still unclear how a touch only shapeshift would work: and that is my problem with the power as written. I'm an experienced player, reasonably imaginative and flexible. Liked the new shapeshift in principle when I bought FRED. Then I played it, and it just seemed...difficult...unnecessarily so.

 

I mean it can do so much more than just changing your shape: you can change your pheremonal signature to throw bloodhounds off the scent, but that didn't feel like it should necessarily be in a shapeshift power.

 

I'd like a power that did what it said on the box, and whilst I'm all for appropriate rationalisation, maybe another power that dealt with fooling senses. Despite my earlier rant about images being more useful, they can't so the pheremone thing - it would be prohibitively expensive to make it persistent and uncontrolled, whereas, presumably, once a scent trail has been laid down it stays that way permanently (or does it shange back to your normal scent too, when you do...) I AM SO CONFUSED.

 

And that is my objection to this. Whilst you can make it work, it is not intuitive. If HERO hets slated it is becsue it is difficult to use. This power really does not help.

Wow. As I was in the shower just now, I had formulated almost this EXACT response. WAAAAAAY back when my mates and I were all about the TMNT comic books, the RPG came out we pooled our cash and bought it. We read through the book (a couple times) and still had absolutely NO IDEA how to play. I may have that book around someplace but I doubt it. Probably used it as kindling or rolling papers or something somewhere along the way.

 

I think Shape Shift is a great abberation for Hero. It is a power that seems to, almost universally, cause a great deal of head scratching. It asks more questions than it answers and makes any constructs with it extremely open-ended, open to interpretation and confusing.

 

I would like to see SS modelled something more like it was in the BBB (with costs approximately in the same neighbourhood as Desol):

 

5pts: Cosmetic Shift a single nontargeting sense (+5 pt adder for a sense group)

10pts: Improved Cosmetic Shift a single targeting sense (+5 pt adder for a sense group)

40pts: Shape Shift (touch, hearing and sight groups)

 

Now, I just made the points up off the top of my head. But I figured SS is about the same level of power as Desol. It would also allow those instances where you want to purchase an additional sense (eg smell).

 

If I change my shape (vs touch) that means my physical form can be a snake. My body has the feel of a snake, dimensions of a snake (albeit a very large snake) and moves like a snake (at least I attempt to, providing my natural movement powers). Now, how can movement as per slithering not SOUND like slithering against the floor? How can my form not LOOK like a snake?

 

Yes, there are isolated instances where a single sense shape shift might be appropriate...but these should be limited to specific sense groups (eg smell) and/or be limited to a lesser version of the power (shape shift with lower case). Shape Shift (with uppercase) covers three default groups (sight, hearing and touch) and do just what the name of the power suggests. Truth in advertising, my good man, truth in advertising.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Sorry this is such a long post, but...

 

Freaky, huh, Rapier...I was writing this when you responded and you'll notice it uses THREE levels of effect. Not quite the same as yours, but have you bought Mind Link recently? (And if you have, I can only apologise!)

 

Right, with kudos for Von D-Man for giving me the idea in the first place, here is how I would re-write shapechange, based on the transformation power. In effect it has 1d6 of transform and extra time (to account for the fact that you’d have to hit yourself several times with a cumulative transform to have the desired effect), and you can change into anything as a default. Then you get self only, shake and…it isn’t an exact science, OK?

 

SHAPECHANGE/METAMORPH

Standard/Body power

Constant

 

Shapechange comes in three levels as follows. It is constant and costs no END to change OR to maintain your form, but it is not persistent unless you buy that advantage. No version of shapechange allows you to change your mass, but might let you change your density. No version let’s you shapeshift clothing or costumes, but might let you appear to be wearing something when you are not. Each version takes a full phase and an extra phase to complete the change. You can make it a half phase change for +1/2 and a zero phase change for +1.

 

You can buy shapechange to change your body, mind or spirit, but the former is far and away the most common, and that is all I’ve addressed here. You’d probably never need more than a cosmetic transform for mind or spirit.

 

No level of shapechange has any effect on combat directly, except through possible surprise modifiers and changes in height and/or density do not have any effect on your characteristics or grant you any powers (INCLUDING REACH) – buy the linked powers for that – and as noted to make it difficult to target vital spots. You gain no linguistic skills other than the ability to make the appropriate sounds.

 

All versions can take the following adders:

 

+10 imitation (You can perfectly imitate a specific being within the confined of the power. You will need to be familiar with them or in their presence, or your imitation is of your recollection of them, which may be inaccurate)

 

+5 extra limbs (whilst you can form extra limbs with certain levels of the power, they are non-functional unless you have this adder. It works just like the power of the same name)

 

1. Cosmetic metamorphosis. BASE COST 10 points. You can not change your basic shape (you must remain humanoid if human), but you can shift your mass around a little (+/- 10% to height, but you get fatter or thinner – the more you do it, the more noticeable it is) and you can change your colouring (blue hair!) and your features to a certain extent. This will have no effect on combat but will allow you to imitate specific individuals with a disguise skill check or the imitation adder. You can change how your voice sounds with this level of the power, but you can only make sounds appropriate to your species, or within the same vocal range. Whilst you can change your skin texture to a degree, it is still recognisably skin (or whatever you have covering you) if touched. You can not change your smell or taste (kinky!). You can impersonate inanimate objects that are humanoid. You can squeeze through gaps that are half the size you could without the power.

2. Minor metamorphosis. BASE COST 20 points. This allows you to truly change shape to anything you like. You can shift mass around to the extent that you can change your density somewhat, and appear up to +50%/-25% of your normal height without appearing disproportionate – but your mass does not change. Your skin will feel like whatever you are imitating and, whilst you can not control your scent or taste, you can, in effect, remove them if you wish. You can appear to be an inanimate object but, whatever the changes, you can be detected by virtually any appropriate special sense, and a detailed medical examination will reveal that you are not what you seem if you are impersonating an inanimate object or another species. You can sound like pretty much anything but can not make ultra or infra sonic noise unless that is normal for your species. You can squeeze through a 6†diameter tube (but you couldn’t get the football through the tube with you). You can conceal small objects (no bigger than a football) inside your body. All hits targeted at vital organs are at an additional –3. You can stretch up to 400% of your normal height but gain no bonuses for doing so – but it is useful for reaching high ledges.

3. Major metamorphosis. BASE COST 30 points. True metamorphosis. This allows you to basically become whatever you like. You do not gain any powers thereby, but you are basically undetectable except by at least one logical sense or detect defined by you (for example, if you are a mutant perhaps that could still be detected), and, of course, if someone sticks a hot wire in you and you freak out. You can shift mass and alter your density so that you appear +100% taller/-50% shorter without looking disproportionate. You can squeeze through a 2†diameter tube. You can hide something of your own base size inside you although you would always look very big when doing so – you can’t make something smaller by enveloping it. If you envelop as an attack you get no bonuses for being a shapeshifter, but it is a damn good justification for linking appropriate powers. You have no differentiated internal organs and opponents cannot gain extra damage to BODY by targeting head or vitals. Always roll for STUN multiples, or apply a campaign average value. You can smell/taste/sound like/look like/feel like anything you can perceive, and if you have enhanced senses, you can appear to those senses as you wish to (subject to the one you can’t hide). You can stretch up to 1000% of your normal height, but gain no bonuses for doing so.

 

Persistent costs +1/2 as you’d expect, and you may want to limit the range of things you can change into to bring down the cost. The limitation will depend on the level of the power you have brought – you don’t get a cost break for only being able to turn into humanoids if you have cosmetic transform (maybe slightly limited group (living things) –1/4, limited group (animals) –1/2, very limited group (people) –3/4), narrow group (men) –1 (or –1/2 for cosmetic transform) or single form –2.

 

Have fun

[Lightray]

You know, I'm now wondering if some form of Shapeshift might be a better model for Instant Change than Transform is.

 

If Touch Shapeshift changes your topography, and Sight Shapeshift changes your color -- then Instant change might be: Shapeshift, vs. Sight, only costs END to activate.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

*SNIP*

 

...Yes, there are isolated instances where a single sense shape shift might be appropriate...but these should be limited to specific sense groups (eg smell) and/or be limited to a lesser version of the power (shape shift with lower case). Shape Shift (with uppercase) covers three default groups (sight, hearing and touch) and do just what the name of the power suggests. Truth in advertising, my good man, truth in advertising.

 

Now, with all due respect Rapier, this sounds like an example of the point I made earlier. People are getting hung up on the name "Shape Shift" upper-case because they think that with that name it has to work a particular way. IOW it has to have a particular SFX, a body physically altering into something else. To me that's an approach that runs counterintuitively to the HERO System, where you start with the effect you want and then find a Power that suits it mechanically. It reminds me of the people who expect a character executing a Block Maneuver to be physically injured against a blow that's vastly stronger than they are, because the word "Block" conjures up the image of physically interposing a body part in the way of the blow... when all Block means in game is a set of combat mechanics which can look however you think is appropriate: redirecting, stepping aside etc.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I for one like the flexibility of the new Shape Shift to fit whatever concept I want. That said, perhaps I might suggest a compromise for people (like Rapier) who want Shape Shift to be body alteration that covers particular Sense Groups, and leave the rest to SFX: how about paying the cost for Shape Shift to the number of Sense Groups you think should be covered - perhaps with specific Groups varying depending on SFX - and then declaring that that is the cost of Shape Shift for anyone in your campaign who wants to buy it? You can then Limit the Shape Shift in whatever way you think is appropriate for a given Power construct. That would also make it easier to port such characters from your campaign into another which may not use the same house rule.

 

As always, YMMV.

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Now' date=' with all due respect Rapier, this sounds like an example of the point I made earlier. People are getting hung up on the name "Shape Shift" upper-case because they think that with that name it has to work a particular way. IOW it has to have a particular SFX, a body physically altering into something else. To me that's an approach that runs counterintuitively to the HERO System, where you start with the effect you want and then find a Power that suits it mechanically. It reminds me of the people who expect a character executing a Block Maneuver to be physically injured against a blow that's vastly stronger than they are, because the word "Block" conjures up the image of physically interposing a body part in the way of the blow... when all Block means [i']in game[/i] is a set of combat mechanics which can look however you think is appropriate: redirecting, stepping aside etc.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I for one like the flexibility of the new Shape Shift to fit whatever concept I want. That said, perhaps I might suggest a compromise for people (like Rapier) who want Shape Shift to be body alteration that covers particular Sense Groups, and leave the rest to SFX: how about paying the cost for Shape Shift to the number of Sense Groups you think should be covered - perhaps with specific Groups varying depending on SFX - and then declaring that that is the cost of Shape Shift for anyone in your campaign who wants to buy it? You can then Limit the Shape Shift in whatever way you think is appropriate for a given Power construct. That would also make it easier to port such characters from your campaign into another which may not use the same house rule.

 

As always, YMMV.

Oh suuuuuuure. Go ahead with logic and all making sense and shit. Sheesh. Where do you think YOU are?

 

Yeah I do get a bit hung up on the name. Mostly because I just can't understand the reasoning behind the new definition. I haven't even, yet, really seen a character with shape shift (lower case) that doesn't work with "my definition" of Shape Shift.

 

A fair portion of my "freakin-out-ness" also deals with the fact that one of my players recently became a metamorph demon (don't ask...it involves an amulet, a curse and a failed curse removal). We built him with Shape Shift. The rules are so outlandish and difficult for me to understand that I am stuck in the unenviable position of not knowing how the power works. I've got no foundation for any rulings. I don't mind punting with a ruling...but this is a bit beyond my comfort zone (kind of like GMing a game system you don't really know).

 

I'm also wondering if maybe Shape Shift isn't the power I want. We added a small MP and VPP to simulate Shifted effects (claws, wings, etc). Ahhhh me. What to do, what to do.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I have interpreted this issue such that Plastic Man basically defines "Shape Shift vs touch only". Shape Shift vs sight and touch would, in most cases, be enough to constitute a complete shape change, although vs. hearing could be useful as well.

 

This does leave the shapeshifter vulnerable, but that reflects the source material. In X-Men, Wolverine could smell Mystique even when she was shapeshifted, for example.

 

If I change my shape (vs touch) that means my physical form can be a snake. My body has the feel of a snake, dimensions of a snake (albeit a very large snake) and moves like a snake (at least I attempt to, providing my natural movement powers). Now, how can movement as per slithering not SOUND like slithering against the floor? How can my form not LOOK like a snake?

 

Your slithering sounds like a snake, because that sound is generated by your scales touching the ground. If you want to hiss, though, you're falling back on your normal snake impression. And your form looks like a snake, because that's what it's shaped like. You look like a snake with human-style eyes and human skin instead of snake scales (but, oddly, it FEELS like snake skin, so maybe it looks like human skin with some kind of dermatological problem).

 

Zeropoint

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Now' date=' with all due respect Rapier, this sounds like an example of the point I made earlier. People are getting hung up on the name "Shape Shift" upper-case because they think that with that name it has to work a particular way. IOW it has to have a particular SFX, a body physically altering into something else. To me that's an approach that runs counterintuitively to the HERO System, where you start with the effect you want and then find a Power that suits it mechanically. It reminds me of the people who expect a character executing a Block Maneuver to be physically injured against a blow that's vastly stronger than they are, because the word "Block" conjures up the image of physically interposing a body part in the way of the blow... when all Block means [i']in game[/i] is a set of combat mechanics which can look however you think is appropriate: redirecting, stepping aside etc.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I for one like the flexibility of the new Shape Shift to fit whatever concept I want. That said, perhaps I might suggest a compromise for people (like Rapier) who want Shape Shift to be body alteration that covers particular Sense Groups, and leave the rest to SFX: how about paying the cost for Shape Shift to the number of Sense Groups you think should be covered - perhaps with specific Groups varying depending on SFX - and then declaring that that is the cost of Shape Shift for anyone in your campaign who wants to buy it? You can then Limit the Shape Shift in whatever way you think is appropriate for a given Power construct. That would also make it easier to port such characters from your campaign into another which may not use the same house rule.

 

As always, YMMV.

LL, to be clear, are you, in essence, advocating as a possible solution (not one you'd do) that one might be best served by simply recosting 4th Edition Shape Shift to cover the desired (default) Senses covered as per the 5th Edition rules and costs, and then allowing any additional 5th adders?

 

To put this more clearly:

 

4th = change form, look, and color into a single other form - that's sight, hearing, and touch (or at least let's say that for sake of simple argument0, so in 5th that's 10 points plus 3 points for non-targeting sense of hearing and 3 for non-targeting sense of touch so we recost "change form, look, and color into a single other form" to 16 points (4th was 10)

 

4th = alter shape into a "limited group" - let's stay with sight, touch, hearing, that's a "limited group of shapes", which is 10 for the basic cost, +6 as above, +10 for the "limited group of shapes", so 26 points (4th was 20)

 

Finally, "any shape" then is simply 36 points following the above logic, with +20 for "any space" instead of +10 for "limited group" (4th was 30)

 

And as a last step you may fudge based on SFX.

 

Correct? Or am I way off base.

[Gary]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I give shapeshifters a limited number of points as sorta a physical adept VPP appropriate to their form chosen. I would give them 1/3 of their points spent in Shapeshift as a mini VPP.

 

So if a character has spent 60 pts in Shapeshift, they have 20 pts to spend on physical powers appropriate to their form. If they shapechange into a bird for example, they can use it for 10" flight. If they change into a wolverine, they can have a 1d6+1 HKA reduced penetration. If they change into a giant amoeba, they can buy 1" stretching and +3d6 Hand Attack.

 

Players are strongly encouraged to have powers appropriate for each form prewritten. A power skill roll at penalties would be needed to improvise a new power. And needless to say, the GM has complete veto power over anything silly or abusive.

 

Players who choose not to be able to have this mini-VPP can apply a -1/2 No Combat ability limitation on their Shape Shift.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Zornwill, re your interpretation of my suggestion: I hadn't actually worked it out in that much detail, but if that's how you see 4E Shape Shift having functioned, then that seems like a logical extrapolation.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I am certainly glad to see official rulings on this from Steve. Are these actually in the FAQ, or are they in the rules questions forum?

 

The last argument I had about SS (The title of the thread was "The Big Arguments") some people seemed to insist that, in effect, SS was an illusion only, and could only be used for deception. That is, if you turned yourself into a snake, you still can't slither through snake-sized holes or escape from ropes, no matter what sense groups you paid for. You'd have to have Desolid for those things. I disagreed, saying that the Shape Shift power should actually allow to to shift your shape. I am glad to see that Steve Long agrees.

 

In that case, I am willing to live with the 5th Ed version of SS, and I would buy Plasticman's power as SS for sight and touch and hearing (I was going to add radio also, but Steve seems to have allowed both Radar and Sonar to be assumed for no extra cost), but with a limitation "Can't change color, texture, or voice" -1/2. This is the "You can always tell it's Plasticman" limitation that other's mentioned, but I've defined it more precisely.

 

But why do I need to include hearing? Because if I change the shape of my legs and feet, I can change the sound of my footsteps. If I change the shape of my hands, I can make non-standard clapping sounds, etc. Likewise if I change into a ball shape and roll along the ground, I don't make any footstep sounds at all. This is a potentially useful ability, and therefore must be paid for.

 

Re: SS vs. Transform - I would NEVER allow Transform to be used as an absolute disguise the way SS can, unless I tacked on some adder or advantage (that currently doesn't exist in the book). Yes, you can change a person's hair/eye/skin color, or alter their facial features in a certain way, but I would consider it abusive to be able to Transform: People into Dan Rather. I might allow it for a +1 advantage (sort of like the Advantage to Summon for summoning specific individuals).

 

Also, I've been toying around with a size modification adder for SS. +5 points allows you to double/halve your size/mass. If you make yourself bigger, you get the Knockback Resistance, but not any other benefits you'd otherwise get from growth, and you're easier to see/hit. If you make yourself smaller, you take more knockback, and you get harder to see/hit, but you lose STR and maybe other abilities as if you had "negative Growth." This Adder would have a ! warning. You could make yourself look like an elephant, but you'd be no stronger than normal, and in fact you'd probably just barely be able to support your own weight.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I would buy Plasticman's power as SS for sight and touch and hearing

 

I'd say Plasticman only needs touch, myself. He changes his shape, as I can tell by touching his flattened out arm, for example. It really did flatten out. It still looks like his arm, only flattened out.

 

His flattened out arm will make a different sound when he smacks it against a table, it's all flat now. He can't change the sound it makes, but it won't be the same as a regular arm. That's because his arm really is flat now.

 

If he could modify the sound it makes, he'd need SS:hearing. If he could make it look different (change color and pattern), he'd need SS:sight.

 

That's my take on it. My area of confusion is where do you draw the line between what-his-changed-shape-can-do and powers-he-should-buy. For example, if he has SS:touch and can get real thin & slide under a door, does he have to buy Desolid, or is that "free"?

[The Zebediah]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

People do seem to get wrapped up in the name...Shape Shift does make a fine "instant change" power, as well as a fine diguise spell and a number of other things I don't usually think of as Shape Shifting. Like all the sensory powers (and a huge number of other things in Hero), it has a misleading name.

 

 

I think, in the Big Arguments thread, someone states that the only purposes of changing one's shape were to gain new abilities based on the new shape, and to alter your perception profile. I think that doesn't quite go far enough..."altering your perception profile" inlcudes two obvious things: Not Looking Like Yourself, and Looking Like Something Else. All the other little changes in perception profile are used as SFX for other powers.

 

Plastic Man, for example, is great at Looking Like Something Else. He's terrible at Not Looking Like Himself, though he might have that for the touch group--you'd have to have someone blind run his fingers over the Plastic Man, er, Wall and see if he can tell the difference between that and a normal wall.

 

Alternately, a voice scrambler or a ski mask or the "You Don't Recognise Me" powers that show up in a number of genres and games ("Mr. Nobody" from Aberrant, for example) allow you to Not Look Like Yourself, but don't really make you look like anything else.

 

Mystique, on the other hand, is great at both Not Looking Like Herself and Looking Like Someone Else. She can even imitate what other people look like exactly, having the Imitation adder and all.

 

 

Now if we had two powers, Signature Erasure and Signature Creation (or a single power that did both, called something like Signature Control) and no power called Shapeshift, this wouldn't be an issue. Changing your shape in order to move through tight spaces would be purchased as Desolidification with limitations or Shrinking or possilby short-range or constant teleportation or something. Becoming a ladder or a hang glider or whatever would require buying the appropriate powers for the form (stretching and some strength, or gliding, I'd assume)...and some type of Signature Control if you can become "just another ladder" instead of "A ladder that looks oddly like Plastic Man." If you want to be a Cool Blue Plasic Ball, figure out what senses that makes you unrecognisable in (mostly the discriminatory senses...can anyone remind me if Touch is discriminatory? I know it's not 360-degrees, which seems odd, whatever...)

 

 

Ideally, I'd like to see all of that folded into a couple of Sensory Powers: Concealment would be Darkness, apply Self Only and IPE at the +2 level for Invisibility (you can't see me, and you can't tell that you can't see me) and "Shapeshift" getting folded into Images. Modify the deliniation of sense groups so the concept of "fringe" is built into them. Heck, I'd love to see Flash and Mental Illusion as aspects of those two powers, too, but that may be going for more power customization and range of powers that Hero can currently handle.

 

 

Oh, PS: Suppose there was a power that did what Images did, but without the "PER roll to notice that this image is false" problem. How much of a side-effect would that be? Would it be a -1 limitation, or -1/2? I thinkn a side effect is the most obvious choice, because it's only an issue when a skill roll doesn't go your way.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

People do seem to get wrapped up in the name...Shape Shift does make a fine "instant change" power, as well as a fine diguise spell and a number of other things I don't usually think of as Shape Shifting. Like all the sensory powers (and a huge number of other things in Hero), it has a misleading name.

 

I think, in the Big Arguments thread, someone states that the only purposes of changing one's shape were to gain new abilities based on the new shape, and to alter your perception profile. I think that doesn't quite go far enough..."altering your perception profile" inlcudes two obvious things: Not Looking Like Yourself, and Looking Like Something Else. All the other little changes in perception profile are used as SFX for other powers.

 

Sounds great. Except that there are abilities one CAN gain from shapeshift that justify it. If one wants to fool perception there is Images, Invisibility, and Mental Illusions.

 

Shape Shift has more in common with Extra Limbs, Duplication, Desolidification, Growth, or Shrinking. It is a body alteration power.

 

Shape Shift could be used to: turn one's fingers into lockpicks, fooling fingerprint scanners, fit through odd shaped openings (yes, shapeshift). All of which require actual, physical transformation and canNOT be duplicated by another power.

 

Desolid for elongation is one of the silliest power builds ever. It should be stretching or shapeshift to fit through tiny cracks.

[The Zebediah]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Sounds great. Except that there are abilities one CAN gain from shapeshift that justify it. If one wants to fool perception there is Images, Invisibility, and Mental Illusions.

 

Shape Shift has more in common with Extra Limbs, Duplication, Desolidification, Growth, or Shrinking. It is a body alteration power.

 

Shape Shift could be used to: turn one's fingers into lockpicks, fooling fingerprint scanners, fit through odd shaped openings (yes, shapeshift). All of which require actual, physical transformation and canNOT be duplicated by another power.

 

Desolid for elongation is one of the silliest power builds ever. It should be stretching or shapeshift to fit through tiny cracks.

 

Right now, it's a rather bastardized power...a body alteration divided by sense groups, which makes it act like a sensory power. I think everyone agrees that the current version is sub-optimal, but not how to change it.

 

Now, in a more cut-and-dry world...

 

"turn one's fingers into lockpicks" -- means you don't need tools to pick locks, so it might be a perk ("needs no equipment for skills?"), or some kind of PSLs on the lockpicking roll for dealing with not having the proper tools. Heck, if I can make my fingers into lockpicks, why not sharpen them (changing my normal punch to a KA) or make by body as rigid and resillient as spring steel (vital for a good set of lockpicks) which would logically allow me to jump higher or allow myself to be used as a platform or something. Heck, suction-cup fingers should give me Clinging...why buy it separately? This opens the door for all sorts of shenanigans, and its "Check with Your GM" time.

 

"fooling fingerprint scanners" is an obvious sensory deception thing. The lock uses it's discriminatory sense of touch to check you against its eidetic memory. A "touch" illusion should work just as well, I think (correct me if I'm wrong. I'd believe you)

 

"Fitting through small openings" ... I agree. Desolid for that is one of the silliest builds ever. I'm not even convinced Desolid should be a base power, and I think it's there mostly because its so common in genre, and building it with EDM and limited Clairsentience is something of a pain in the butt.

 

However, there's another perfectly good power for slipping under small cracks in doors: Shrinking. Or, perhaps, some variant on Teleportation (make it constant, and limit it to not pass through solid walls?). Or lots of Contortionist skill, perhaps, though I admit that one's a little odd.

 

 

Hero doesn't have Ice Powers or Fire Powers...it tells you to think about what kinds of things you want to be able to do with those powers, and build them. Only in a few places (the body-affecting powers being the primary culprits) do they try to give you a special effect, and all its 'logical ramifications.' The wackiness with the odd Desolid builds is a major result of this.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I give shapeshifters a limited number of points as sorta a physical adept VPP appropriate to their form chosen. I would give them 1/3 of their points spent in Shapeshift as a mini VPP.

 

So if a character has spent 60 pts in Shapeshift, they have 20 pts to spend on physical powers appropriate to their form. If they shapechange into a bird for example, they can use it for 10" flight. If they change into a wolverine, they can have a 1d6+1 HKA reduced penetration. If they change into a giant amoeba, they can buy 1" stretching and +3d6 Hand Attack.

 

Players are strongly encouraged to have powers appropriate for each form prewritten. A power skill roll at penalties would be needed to improvise a new power. And needless to say, the GM has complete veto power over anything silly or abusive.

 

Players who choose not to be able to have this mini-VPP can apply a -1/2 No Combat ability limitation on their Shape Shift.

That's really interesting Gary, I like that idea a lot.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Why is everyone disgruntled with Shapeshift so bent on elimenating it? Why not just switch back to something closer to the 4th edition shapeshift? Why should I buy a host of powers to replace one power that functions perfectly if i just ignore the "sense-affecting power" element of the description.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Why is everyone disgruntled with Shapeshift so bent on elimenating it? Why not just switch back to something closer to the 4th edition shapeshift? Why should I buy a host of powers to replace one power that functions perfectly if i just ignore the "sense-affecting power" element of the description.

Hey, that's what I propose, so it' snot "everyone".

[tesuji]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

FWIW, Fantasy HERo shapeshift allows you to IIRC "respend" a number of points equal to 1/2 the ap of shapeshift for powers suitable to your new forms.

 

of course, that was olde Fantasy hero... Pre-4th edition even.

 

:-)

[Gary]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

FWIW, Fantasy HERo shapeshift allows you to IIRC "respend" a number of points equal to 1/2 the ap of shapeshift for powers suitable to your new forms.

 

of course, that was olde Fantasy hero... Pre-4th edition even.

 

:-)

 

 

In a fantasy hero game without ready access to Power Frameworks, this may be ok. However in a superheroic campaign, I think it makes SS too powerful. You could stick 60 pts of SS in a EC for 30 pts net and have a 30 pt VPP. Essentially a limited Cosmic VPP with no control cost. Even less if you have limitations. That's why my suggestion was 1/3 the points, not 1/2.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Ok, this is how I would change shapeshift...

 

10 points - This is a seemingly minor change. Changing one's clothes, hair style, and other appearance changes. You still retain your basic size and shape. Think Instant Change from the BBB. You gain +2 to Disguise if you have it. If you can only change one way and then back, it is 5 points.

 

20 points - This is the advanced version. You can squeeze under doorways (although this takes 2 full phases unless you have some other power), turn yourself into Giant Blue Ball, and other fun like things. Unless you spend points for Imitation or Cellular, people have a pretty good idea who you are (how many bouncy Giant Blue Balls do you run across?), but you have +4 to Disguise or Concealment if you happen to pick a really good shape and act like one of those things (looking and acting like a cop when police are everywhere or turning into a mailbox and standing still). You still retain most of your mass and are unable to change your size more than double or half your original size.

 

A small multipower of Shapeshifting tricks is also recommended. Common ones would be bonuses to DCV (small shape), Stretching, Bonus Running or Leaping, Physical Damage Reduction (Non-resistant) and possible bonuses to physical stats. This will no doubt be covered in the Ultimate Metamorph.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

10 points - This is a seemingly minor change. Changing one's clothes' date=' hair style, and other appearance changes. You still retain your basic size and shape. Think Instant Change from the BBB. You gain +2 to Disguise if you have it. If you can only change one way and then back, it is 5 points. [/quote']

 

Good point - why is instant change derived from Transform instead of Shape Shift? Shifting shape to Hero form seems like Instant Change in a nutshell!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Hello again. Been away a couple of days, which is nice: you get to see a thread develop. Couple of thoughts (bear in mind I've just re-read Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber. If you haven't yet, DO SO. It is excellent. The main protagonist (Corwin) muses over sophistry: the idea that all you can prove the existence of is yourself - everything else is just a series of chemo-electrical nerve impulses you are interpretting and may not represent an external reality at all, but your own deranged musings...)

 

1. Lord Laiden. Excellent defence of the changes made to shapeshifting in 5th ed. Part of my concern is created by the rules themselves which clearly say that shapeshift, multiform and duplication are linked but have different effects different. The mechanics of multiform and duplication are handled entirely differently from shapeshifting, which seems counterintuitive, given that there are powers (invisibility and images) which work very like shapeshifting. I can use it as is but I'm concerned that cost seems to have increased without increased utility. The new system allows for enormously increased granularity (see - I am using it!) and definition: you would have had a job doing scent change under the old system, without some reaching. I'm just concerned that the current sysytem seems to be cramming too much into one power, when there are other powers that could have been used, and had it crammed in there...which brings me to...

 

2. The Zebediah. I like the signature conceal/change idea, but it seems to me that invisibilty already does what you are after here. It wouldn't take much of a change to reduce the cost of invisibility, then give it adders: say +10 for concealment (i.e. actual invisibilty to the chosen senses), +10 for change (making the chosen senses perceive something different). You can, of course, buy both, so that the one power allows you to either look like something else or nothing at all. That would seem (to me) to be pretty much what you are after AND would sweep up the current version of shapeshifting all in one.

 

3. Generally. If we are rationalising, lets incorporate Images too: you just give it range and area of effect and limitations: Imperfect (allows a PER roll to detect that it is an image) and something like Not Real (the changes wrought are illusory and have no actual effect real world objects other than fooling perception.

 

Hell we can probably get the HERO system down to a four page booklet if we keep this up...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Good point - why is instant change derived from Transform instead of Shape Shift? Shifting shape to Hero form seems like Instant Change in a nutshell!

 

Or maybe, transform should work like shapeshift: you haven't changed Grond into a Belgian Waffle, it is just that he- and everyone else - perceives him that way.

 

I'm sorry, it was Bonfire Night this weekend, and I may have inhaled too much smoke...