Shapeshifting

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Imitation shapeshifting still allows a PER roll for people who know the character well at -3. This would cost 9 points in images (-3 to PER roll). You automatically get to copystuff with an INT roll. Shapeshift is not 'perfect', but I accept that there are disadvantages to images. Can you accept that this is (more than) balanced by it's increased utility. Range: you can throw your voice, or make it appear that a team mate is doing a sneak attack - then do one yourself. The power can emulate darkness in some ways, especially effective if you buy personal immunity: put a wall in front of you then punch through it. Lots of other stuff: you can look like Dan Rather a significant part of the time. Who's going to spot that you are fake,and if they do, isn't that goingt o convince them you are the original?

 

Invisibility is a great espionage tool, more useful in some situations, less so in others than shapeshift. That is pretty rare in comics (characters you can not see are not interesting to watch). It is similarly priced and has far greater effect in combat.

 

The other well made point is that the price reflects comic book reality/rareness. I would be persuaded if this carried through to other powers, but dare I point at transform? Not a very common power in comics. Cheap for what it does. In fact if you had two characters with 5 points of cosmetic transform in the party you could have them make each other look exactly like Dan Rather. For this reason I can not accept that it is the design philosophy to keep shapeshifters rare. You can do that in any event by not building/allowing them very often, you don't need a rules mechanic.

 

Finally whilst I agree that they are great for role playing certain scenarios, you only really get to do that a great deal if you are playing solo. A group won't want to wait around whilst Proteus infiltrates VIPER, uncovers the plot and sets demolition charges around the doomsday device, so, in practice, you are only going to get to use the powers in limited ways, like fooling a guard to get the rest of the group in.

Well thought and well argued. Personally, I would never play a shape shifter. Just not my particular cup of tea. The shapeshifter I have in my group has just picked up his shapeshifting power, so I'm looking forward to him using it a bit more.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I can only apologise, Rapier, I don't know what came over me...but thank you for your kind words.

 

I have played shapeshifters (I'm converting a 4th to 5th edition one at present and so the topic is live for me) and I think I can put my finger on part of the problem. We now have adders and much tighter and more restrictive definitions.

 

Before you could build a character that could turn into something different, say a lion, and the cost was a bit less than it is in 5th ed. You didn't change scent, because no one had thought of it and it got fluffed through on special effects. Now, if you 'really' do want to change into someone/something else it is going to cost you becasue of all the senses you have to cover...and you're not really changing, you are making it appear to perceptions that you are.

 

One way of making it cheaper before was to apply a limitation to what you could turn into. Monster Girl (the character I mentioned above) can turn into any creature at all, but it has to be 'monstrous'. Before I'd have a -1/4 or -1/2 limitation, now I have a 10 point adder. That can make a significant difference to overall cost.

 

Obviously MG is not the team infiltrator:

 

Guard 1: Halt, who goes there?

MG: Grrrrrrrrraaaaaaa!

Guard 2: Oh, it's OK, its only Godzilla!

Guard 1: Hey, Goddy, welcome back. How was Tokyo?

 

The feel of shapeshifting (if you'll excuse the pun) was different. The new way of looking at it (just can't stop with the puns...) is more restrictive and leaves less room for GM/player discretion, if you are playing by the rules as writ. As it happens, MG gets away with quite a lot, but then I've been playing her for some time...one example, MG has, on one occasion, changed into a monstrous serpent, which was long and thin (MG has 30 points of growth too, so very long...). She got away with stretching a hell of a distance (far more than I could afford to buy with combat stretching) to grab the tail of a plane we needed to stop taking off. I grabbed the plane and slowed it enough to let the others catch up and we won the day, trouncing evil and recapturing Hitler's brain...long story...everyone was happy). You could call it a one off power trick under 4th, under 5th it is clearly an impossible abuse.

 

Silly point, but worth making. If you take shapeshift to ONLY effect touch and shapeshift into a fat dwarf, everyone sees you as you were before. If they punch you in the head that they see, do they hit you but not feel like they have, or do they miss you?

[caris]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

What zornwill said.

 

People have been implying that shapeshift is 'the real deal'. If you buy it just against sight, it is an illusion (albeit a good one) thrown over your usual shape. You don't actually shift shape, you fool other peoples senses into thinking you are a different shape, which is why it has no 'real world effect'.

Which is my fundamental dislike of the new structure for Shape Shift (my appologies to Emerged and others that like the new structure).

 

I like the added granularity, and to some extent basing it some what on the senses make sense. It just adds in a bunch of strange issues to the game. Now Shape Shift isn't really a body affecting power anymore. It is a sense affecting power. Now, if as the FAQ states (presumably this will be part of 5ER) shape shift vs. touch can be assumed to affect some radar, some sonar and some spatial awareness does this mean a Darkness vs. Touch can affect some of them too? If not, why not?

 

Than there are the issues arround when you are trying to use Shape Shift + Powers to mimick some construct rather than Multiform. If you are actually becoming something physically even if it is mechanically more complicated it usually better to use Multiform, because than you don't have to worry about buying every possible Detect that might be necessary to mimick what you have become.

 

Than there are the odd situations like Plastic Man. When he is pulling his various "hiding as a lamp, a waste paper basket, etc." schtick what does he need? Touch? Sight with Limitation?

 

I think that I would prefer that I got the just as complicated, but more body affecting like choice of making the categories be something like: physical composition, physical shape, coloration, vocalization, spirit, mind etc. with the option for the GM to add or remove categories at their need.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I will definitely be using the word 'granularity' in conversation. Thank you, caris. Apologies to everyone who knows me.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Imitation shapeshifting still allows a PER roll for people who know the character well at -3. This would cost 9 points in images (-3 to PER roll). You automatically get to copystuff with an INT roll. Shapeshift is not 'perfect', but I accept that there are disadvantages to images. Can you accept that this is (more than) balanced by it's increased utility. Range: you can throw your voice, or make it appear that a team mate is doing a sneak attack - then do one yourself. The power can emulate darkness in some ways, especially effective if you buy personal immunity: put a wall in front of you then punch through it. Lots of other stuff: you can look like Dan Rather a significant part of the time. Who's going to spot that you are fake,and if they do, isn't that goingt o convince them you are the original?

 

Invisibility is a great espionage tool, more useful in some situations, less so in others than shapeshift. That is pretty rare in comics (characters you can not see are not interesting to watch). It is similarly priced and has far greater effect in combat.

 

The other well made point is that the price reflects comic book reality/rareness. I would be persuaded if this carried through to other powers, but dare I point at transform? Not a very common power in comics. Cheap for what it does. In fact if you had two characters with 5 points of cosmetic transform in the party you could have them make each other look exactly like Dan Rather. For this reason I can not accept that it is the design philosophy to keep shapeshifters rare. You can do that in any event by not building/allowing them very often, you don't need a rules mechanic.

 

Finally whilst I agree that they are great for role playing certain scenarios, you only really get to do that a great deal if you are playing solo. A group won't want to wait around whilst Proteus infiltrates VIPER, uncovers the plot and sets demolition charges around the doomsday device, so, in practice, you are only going to get to use the powers in limited ways, like fooling a guard to get the rest of the group in.

But transform is common in heroic literature in general I would say. Don't forget Fantasy. Plus attack powers are a little different anyway in that at least we have a more strictly-utilitarian basis of damage, and with Transform we (traditionally, anyway) compare that to a Killing Attack, so 15 per 1d6 for the most heady version seems reasonable enough (mostly).

 

Great points re Images.

 

PS/EDIT - one point re espionage/solo - not to naysay your point, but, rather, I would say that in some groups this works fine despite being solo-oriented; in our group this tends to happen in email or F2F, if in F2F the group tends to have a high ability to self-entertain and so it does happen a reasonable amount.

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Which is my fundamental dislike of the new structure for Shape Shift (my appologies to Emerged and others that like the new structure).

 

I like the added granularity, and to some extent basing it some what on the senses make sense. It just adds in a bunch of strange issues to the game. Now Shape Shift isn't really a body affecting power anymore. It is a sense affecting power. Now, if as the FAQ states (presumably this will be part of 5ER) shape shift vs. touch can be assumed to affect some radar, some sonar and some spatial awareness does this mean a Darkness vs. Touch can affect some of them too? If not, why not?

THATS IT!! Gadzooks. I haven't been able, up to now, to quantify what was bugging me about FREd Shape Shift. This is it exactly. You aren't changing shape so much as you are changing how you are perceived. It went from being a Transform (BBB) to Images (FREd).

 

Now I have to think about how that effects things.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

There have been a few assumptions in this debate being discussed as fact about what Shape Shift does or does not do. I think it would be helpful to clearly present what the official position on these things really is, so that we can at least start from the same page. The official position comes from Steve Long, of course, so I'm just going to transcribe his pertinent responses from the FAQ and the Rules Questions Forum.

 

First, regarding the ability/inability to see through Images with a Perception Roll:

 

 

The standard rules for Shape Shift don’t provide any PER Roll to “see through†the alteration in form. It has to be detected in other ways, such as a PER Roll using a Sense the Shape Shift doesn’t affect (“He looks like Bob... but he sure doesn’t sound like himâ€). A character could Limit his Shape Shift so that observers get a PER Roll to “see through†his change in form, if desired.

 

The PER Roll for Shape Shift with a Required Skill Roll is going to depend on the extent to which the GM allows Skill Versus Skill Rolls with RSR powers. See 5E 199.

 

The PER Roll modifier discussed for Imitation is an optional thing the GM can allow if he wants, but all it does is tell the onlooker (who by definition has to know what the person being imitated “looks†like) that something’s not quite right. It doesn’t reveal the character’s true appearance or anything like that.

 

 

Now, as to how "physical" the shifting of shape actually is (note in particular the specific examples at the bottom):

 

 

 

Shape Shift (Sight Group) allows a character to change his form as perceived by the Sight Group. This would let him

 

—change his coloration (all sorts of interesting uses, including possible benefits to Stealth or Concealment)

 

—look like a snake, but not feel, sound, or smell like one

 

—look exactly like someone else (if he used the Imitation Adder)

 

In the latter example, the character looks like a snake, but doesn’t feel, sound, or smell like one. Anyone who touches him, for example, will realize he’s not a snake. Depending upon the nature of the power and the special effects, they may touch the snake and its scales feel like human skin or cloth. Or, it could be that they reach down and somehow “feel†the human form behind the Sight Shape Shift. A Sight-only Shape Shift works best for characters who only want to change some visible aspect of themselves, generate a change defined as a potent illusion, or the like.

 

Shape Shift (Hearing Group) allows a character to change his form as perceived by the Hearing Group. This would let him

 

—not sound like himself (for example, to trick a voice-tracking program)

 

—sound exactly like someone else (if he used the Imitation Adder)

 

Shape Shift (Touch Group) allows a character to change his form as perceived by the Touch Group. This would let him

 

—make his skin feel like scales, or like cloth

 

—alter his actual physical shape or mass distribution (though his total mass would not change), thus allowing him to, for example, slip out of bonds, radically alter his form, or within reason to fit through openings a human-shaped being cannot fit through — in the classic meaning of “shifting shape.â€

 

Shape Shift (Smell/Taste Group) allows a character to change his form as perceived by the Smell/Taste Group. This would let him

 

—change his scent to throw tracking dogs off his track

 

—duplicate someone else’s scent to fool a biochemical security system (if he used the Imitation Adder)

 

Shape Shift (Radio Group) allows a character to change his form as perceived by the Radio Group (including Radar). This would let him

 

—alter the “energy signature†given off by his superpowers

 

—duplicate someone else’s “energy signature†(if he used the Imitation Adder)

 

If a character has Shape Shift (Touch Group), but not (Radio Group), and another character perceives him with Radar, the Radar typically only tells the character using it where the Shape Shifted character is, and his general shape/configuration (in Shifted form). Radar can’t pick up fine details, so Shape Shift (Touch Group) usually suffices to “fool†it. The Discriminatory modifier allows the Radar user to tell the general nature of the Shape Shifted character (organic versus inorganic, solid versus liquid, and the like). The Analyze modifier provides a more definite answer, but still only general information (e.g., the Shape Shifted being is a mammal, the Shape Shifted being is made of gold, or the like). (Generally, this all applies to Sonar as well, though in that case it’s usually the Hearing Group, not the Radio Group, that’s involved.)

 

As these examples and the Basic Shape Shifting and Advanced Shape Shifting powers in the book indicate, almost all Shape Shift-based powers are probably going to affect both the Sight Group and the Touch Group at a minimum. You can always go beyond that, but those two Sense Groups are necessary if a character wants to fully “alter his form†as most gamers conceive of that concept. However, you can use Shape Shift for just one Sense Group to create all sorts of interesting powers and abilities.

 

 

Q: All right, let’s try some hypotheticals:

 

Q1: What happens if a character with Shape Shift (Sight Group) shifts shape into a snake? If another character touches him, what would he feel?

 

A1: What happens depends on the nature of the power and its special effects. If a character bought only Sight Group for his Shape Shift, his form changes only as perceived by the Sight Group. This would allow him to, as you suggest, make himself look like a snake. But anyone who touches him is going to realize he’s not a snake. Depending upon the nature of the power and the special effects, maybe the person touching him feels like human skin or cloth instead of scales. Or, maybe he reaches down and somehow “feels†the human form behind the Sight Shape Shift. Similarly, anyone who listens to him hiss is going to realize he’s not a snake; and anyone who smells him will realize he’s not a snake.

 

Q2: A character uses Shape Shift (Sight Group) to shift shape into a dog. Would someone trying to pet the dog have his hand “pass through†the dog shape to feel the human form beneath? Would he feel the human form standing up through the back of the dog?

 

A2: What would happen is not that someone petting the dog form would have the hand “pass right through†the shape-shifted character (unless that suited the special effects of the power). Instead, they’d touch the dog’s fur, and say, “Hey, this looks like dog fur, but it feels like human skin [a pair of jeans, a suit of armor, whatever]!â€

 

Q3: A fat character has Shape Shift (Sight Group). An enemy ties him up. If he shifts shape to look thinner, do the ropes fall away from him, or do they remain suspended in midair encircling his true shape, or what? What happens if he also had Touch Group as part of his Shape Shift?

 

A3: Because the character has not shifted his shape to the Touch Group, he can’t get out of the ropes, which are touching him. (If he did have Touch Group, he could alter his physical form or distribution of mass and slip out of the ropes easily.) When he only shifts shape as to the Sight Group, he’s just affecting how others perceive him with Sight, and the ropes don’t see him. What appears to happens to the ropes depends on the special effects of the power. If, for example, the power were defined as a potent illusion, the ropes would probably still look like they’re tightly confining him, since it would make the illusion useless if they just remained where they were, suspended in mid-air.

 

Q4: A 100 kg character has Shape Shift (Touch Group). He shifts shape into a snake. How much does the snake weigh, and can it fit through an opening too small for a human, but small enough for a snake?

 

A4: The snake would weigh 90-110 kg — Shape Shift (Touch Group) allows a character to redistribute his mass, but not to alter it more than +/-10%. As such, he’d have to be a bigger than normal snake, or a longer than normal snake, or pick a species of snake that’s already big and heavy (like a reticulated python). As a snake, he can fit through anything a snake of that size and shape could normally fit through, even if his human shape is too big for that opening. (However, there are reasonable limits on this. To fit through very small openings, characters should typically buy a Limited form of Desolidification — Shape Shift can’t spread a character’s mass out to the thinness of vapor, for example.)

 

I'd also like to address in a bit more detail the concerns that some folks here have expressed over the interaction of Shape Shift to Touch which alters the shape and proportions of your body, and how that is or is not perceived by Radar. It's a topic which has been discussed here before.

 

If you've read any DC comics featuring Plastic Man, you'll have seen him alter his body into any number of shapes that often resemble particular objects, but are still recognizably Plastic Man: the colors don't change, flesh is still recognizably flesh, etc. This would be an example of Touch Group Shape Shift that doesn't include Sight.

 

Anyone who's worked with radar knows that some materials are more radar-reflective than others, and tend to produce a more intense image. While simple radar may only be able to detect the outline of an object - and hence be fooled by a target which has altered the distribution of its mass to resemble something else - more sensitive radar (bought with Discriminatory, in HERO terms) would be able to recognize the difference in reflectivity of different materials, and recognize that something that looked like a tree wasn't really made of wood, for example.

[Vondy]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I know self only isn't technically okay for transform, but this is to illustrate a point. If the ability to assume any human shape (all base senses, only costs end to change shape) costs more than this, then shapeshift is over priced IMHO. This write up assumes a body of 15:

 

Cost	Power	END
33	Shape Shift: Cosmetic Transform 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points); Self Only (-1/2)	5

Powers Cost: 33

 

Total Character Cost: 33

 

Cost	Power	END
61	Shape Shift (Sight, Smell/Taste, Touch and Hearing Groups, limited group of shapes), Cellular, Imitation, Costs END Only To Change Shape (+1/4)	5

Powers Cost: 61

 

Total Character Cost: 61

 

And I note you can't apply persistent to a power that costs endurance, which means it would be even more expensive to make the power persistent, which transform is by default - if I ignore that rule and tack on persistent anyways it costs 86 points!

 

Even if you made self only -0 it would still be cheaper with transform - and if I can do it to someone else for 50 points (without self-only) then I should be able to do it to myself for that much. I think the restriction on self-targeting transforms is an arbitrary - and intetnded to protect shapeshift, which is (IMHO) conceptually redundant.

 

In summation - to do the same thing to myself that I can do to someone else costs 36 points more to achieve the same effect. 56 more if you give points for self only. And I didn't include exotic sense groups. True, if you have a big body score or want variable com the savings go down, but the difference (36 Points without self-only and with cheating on shapeshift) indicates Shapeshift is overpriced. I like shapeshift as a form of convenient shorthand, but it shouldn't cost more to transform my own shape than it does someone else's with the same body score.

 

Edit: and since most shapeshifting occurs in non-combat (I think) the fact that transform is cumulative will also play into it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

It just occurred to me that part of the difficulty people are having with the 5E Shape Shift may lie in the name. People connect "shifting your shape" with physically altering your form. While that may be the SFX of a particular iteration of Shape Shift, it doesn't have to be, any more than an Energy Blast has to always be a projection of Energy.

 

Shape Shift is just the name given to a Power which does certain game-mechanical things: it alters how the senses of another perceive the user of the Power, in a way that a Perception Roll cannot usually detect as having been done. You can use this to make yourself look like something else, sound like something else, smell or feel like something else, or any combination thereof. There are lots of times when you want to do these things individually, rather than collectively.

 

I've also been thinking about the issue of Shape Shift now just being an "illusion" rather than an actual physical change. These concepts aren't really mutually exclusive. An "illusion" is simply a false seeming; what creates the illusion is, again, just SFX. For example, someone wearing makeup, facial prosthetics and a wig has added physical materials to his face, but all he's really done is create the illusion that he's a different person. Because it didn't grant any other Powers, that's all that the 4E Shape Shift did, too.

 

Von D-Man: that's a very logical cost comparison. I do want to point out that as you've built this Cosmetic Transform shapeshift power, it will only grant you one other predefined shape, whereas you've given the Limited Group of Shapes Adder to the Shape Shift example. To get the same result from Transform you'll need at least a +1/4 Advantage, raising the Active Points to 62 and the Real Points to 41, with an END expenditure of 6. Also, the Transform will only work instantaneously (as Shape Shift does) on a character with maximum 15 BODY. If your character has more you'll have to raise the number of dice, with proportionate increase in Active/ Real Points and END, whereas Shape Shift isn't affected by BODY total.

 

I wonder: would you allow a Cosmetic Transform that only altered the way you look, and not the way you feel/sound etc., to take a further Limitation? As the Power is written in the rules it doesn't look like that would make any difference to the cost, whereas it makes a big difference to the cost of Shape Shift.

 

(I'm sorry if I sound like I'm giving you a hard time, Von. Just working through some of the implications of your comparison.)

 

EDIT: I noticed your added point about the Cumulative nature of Transform. That is definitely worth taking into account.

[Lightray]

A3: Because the character has not shifted his shape to the Touch Group' date=' he can’t get out of the ropes, which are touching him. (If he did have Touch Group, he could alter his physical form or distribution of mass and slip out of the ropes easily.) When he only shifts shape as to the Sight Group, he’s just affecting how others perceive him with Sight, and the ropes don’t see him. What appears to happens to the ropes depends on the special effects of the power. If, for example, the power were defined as a potent illusion, the ropes would probably still look like they’re tightly confining him, since it would make the illusion useless if they just remained where they were, suspended in mid-air.[/i']

Thinking of Shapeshift as a sense-affecting power that affects the senses of objects is very weird, but I can almost wrap my brain around that concept.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Thinking of Shapeshift as a sense-affecting power that affects the senses of objects is very weird' date=' but I can almost wrap my brain around that concept.[/quote']

 

Maybe it would help to think of it not as affecting the "senses" of objects, but of how objects interact with the change to the subject of the Shape Shift.

[Vorsch]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Try explaining that to new players.

 

While i like and have come around to some of the sublties of the new power, it dosent let you play mystique out the box.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I know self only isn't technically okay for transform, but this is to illustrate a point. If the ability to assume any human shape (all base senses, only costs end to change shape) costs more than this, then shapeshift is over priced IMHO. This write up assumes a body of 15:

 

Cost	Power	END
33	Shape Shift: Cosmetic Transform 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points); Self Only (-1/2)	5

Powers Cost: 33

 

Total Character Cost: 33

 

Cost	Power	END
61	Shape Shift (Sight, Smell/Taste, Touch and Hearing Groups, limited group of shapes), Cellular, Imitation, Costs END Only To Change Shape (+1/4)	5

Powers Cost: 61

 

Total Character Cost: 61

 

And I note you can't apply persistent to a power that costs endurance, which means it would be even more expensive to make the power persistent, which transform is by default - if I ignore that rule and tack on persistent anyways it costs 86 points!

 

Even if you made self only -0 it would still be cheaper with transform - and if I can do it to someone else for 50 points (without self-only) then I should be able to do it to myself for that much. I think the restriction on self-targeting transforms is an arbitrary - and intetnded to protect shapeshift, which is (IMHO) conceptually redundant.

 

In summation - to do the same thing to myself that I can do to someone else costs 36 points more to achieve the same effect. 56 more if you give points for self only. And I didn't include exotic sense groups. True, if you have a big body score or want variable com the savings go down, but the difference (36 Points without self-only and with cheating on shapeshift) indicates Shapeshift is overpriced. I like shapeshift as a form of convenient shorthand, but it shouldn't cost more to transform my own shape than it does someone else's with the same body score.

 

Edit: and since most shapeshifting occurs in non-combat (I think) the fact that transform is cumulative will also play into it.

I would argue that a shape shift of self to a cellular level is not cosmetic so your comparison is not entirely apples-to-apples. Also, Shape Shift is absolute and independent of BOD whereas Transform costs increase according to BOD, thus penalizing higher-BOD characters.

 

Also, I would argue that one gets more flexibility in self-transformation than transformation of another, although that's admittedly a more tenuous argument. PS/EDIT - well perhaps less tenuous in that you alter your own shape to do a variety of tasks at your own will; altering another is most often "simply" an attack and even if not requires their cooperation and a whole other layer of involvement. I do think there is a clearer utility to self-transformation than transformation of another in terms of flexibility, although you could well argue it's an equal trade-off in that the transformation of another is elimination of them as a threat (as well as other such possibilities).

[Vondy]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

 

Von D-Man: that's a very logical cost comparison. I do want to point out that as you've built this Cosmetic Transform shapeshift power, it will only grant you one other predefined shape, whereas you've given the Limited Group of Shapes Adder to the Shape Shift example. To get the same result from Transform you'll need at least a +1/4 Advantage, raising the Active Points to 62 and the Real Points to 41, with an END expenditure of 6. Also, the Transform will only work instantaneously (as Shape Shift does) on a character with maximum 15 BODY. If your character has more you'll have to raise the number of dice, with proportionate increase in Active/ Real Points and END, whereas Shape Shift isn't affected by BODY total.

 

Good point about the number of forms. I didn't include radar in shapeshift, though and I let it cheat on how it got persistent... so even if transform were to cost 62/41 points it would still be cheaper than shapshift at 86 points by a margin of 24/45 points - if you buy radar as well, and transform would cover it - then the cost variance goes up.

 

I do find the fact that the body and cost is scalable wonky for transform, but I don't see that many characters - at least not morphs who don't use multiform - who have massive body scores. And the way shapeshift is modelled conceptually is also pretty wonky. I see your point about "illusions," but if I can do the real thing MUCH cheaper in most cases (15-20 is a pretty normative BDY) then I wonder about the price.

 

I'm not inclined to dink with it, but it does raise my eyebrow.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

(snip)

 

If you've read any DC comics featuring Plastic Man, you'll have seen him alter his body into any number of shapes that often resemble particular objects, but are still recognizably Plastic Man: the colors don't change, flesh is still recognizably flesh, etc. This would be an example of Touch Group Shape Shift that doesn't include Sight.

 

Very interesting. But is this supported anywhere in HERO material, FAQ or otherwise, and I missed it? What concerns me with your comment is that the sight sense sees Plastic Man looking very, very different. And if it's dark or Plastic Man is in shadows, in fact, his Shape Shift is working very much against sight. I think you are suggesting something for nothing here - ?

 

Anyone who's worked with radar knows that some materials are more radar-reflective than others, and tend to produce a more intense image. While simple radar may only be able to detect the outline of an object - and hence be fooled by a target which has altered the distribution of its mass to resemble something else - more sensitive radar (bought with Discriminatory, in HERO terms) would be able to recognize the difference in reflectivity of different materials, and recognize that something that looked like a tree wasn't really made of wood, for example.

 

Although I understood your other point that radar just sees a blip of an object and therefore it isn't really a concern re a Shape Shift against sight, wouldn't radar with discriminatory be reporting an outline, and if so, unless one buys Shape Shift versus Radio, doesn't that mean that even on the so-called "sight" basis radar gets past that? And is that appropriate?

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

OH DAMN, I just accidentally erased everything I wrote, and it was lengthy. Freaking crap...okay, starting over...

 

Comparing Shape Shift to Images, there are two primary differences. One is that Images are not absolute whereas Shape Shift is; you purchase the sense for SS, that sense is entirely fooled. The other of course is that Images are projected and have external effect. These differences are not dissimilar, actually, from Transformation to Shape Shift, sharing the same essential ingredients as Transformation is not absolute and is projected against something/someone.

 

I don't think that self-Transformation is forbidden so much as a concern for duplication with Shape Shift as much as it is the general utility of such also in terms of Multiform. One could easily create a cheaper flexible version of Multiform with self-Transformation, I believe, at least for more powerful forms (single cheap Multiforms could still be done better with that, given the 1/5 ratio). There's an interesting interplay here, too, in that Multiform and Duplication and Transformation all intrinsically change an object whereas Shape Shift doesn't really have to - its SFX may be that its a sophisticated mirage.

 

If Shape Shift is a sophisticated mirage, then the senses take is understandable and accurate. However, I would really question this because most often in the source material, a Shape Shift is a very, very real thing. The being has changed form in point of fact. And even in those cases where it has not, either the SFX are that it may as well have OR it simply is better modelled with Images as high-PERs tend to see through the subtleties of image projection or inaccurate mental meddling.

 

And if Multiform and Transform and the like don't require sensory declarations, why should Shape Shift? I don't think there's adequate support in source material; it seems to me most Shape Shifters in fiction have a singular weakness or a closely-bound set of weaknesses - the Shifter, for example, always has a small identifying mark somewhere, or it feels fleshy ieven if taking other forms, or it has a strange odor, or whatever.

 

And even as a tangent and despite the rules' prohibition on self-Transformation, VDM's point raises the very question of why would I elect to play a guessing game of "did I get all the senses I need" when I could chose to actually be it for all external appearance and sound purposes?

 

I just don't see adequate evidence that the shift to senses-based Shape Shift really makes sense. Certainly, a good solid discussion of having the ways in which the Shifter could be identified is in order. But I would urge this senses-based approach, at least as it stands now, be fully reexamined for 6th.

 

That being said, the self-Transformation idea remains an interesting one and in general we should consider whether this can/should be built from another power such as that. There's still a utility/value proposition to explore, and I don't know that the cheaper value that can be had by Transformation is good, and even removing Cellular to make for a better comparison still holds to VDM's central point that there's still a cost discrepancy, whichever way is the "correct" way. And the difference troubles me a bit in that Transform still requires the BOD-based accounting, although that's not necessarily a problem as one could well support the idea that in general Shifters wouldn't be of high BOD and if they were, paying more is a fair trade-off - maybe. Also, it makes it harder to buy Shape Shift as a zero-phase action, doesn't it? On the other hand, self-Transformation makes it easier, given guidelines for CP changes, to make reasonable changes in points that often accompanies Shape Shift!

 

The discussion of Shape Shift versus Transformation is certainly a more tricky one. I suppose somewhere in here we need Instant Change as a discussion as well - certainly Instant Change is not all that different at all from Shape Shift.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

OH DAMN' date=' I just accidentally erased everything I wrote, and it was lengthy. Freaking crap...okay, starting over.[/quote']

 

Nothing to do with the thread, but...

 

If you accidentally highlight and hit delete, or even another character, you erase everything you wrote. Oh....dear.

 

You can get it all back using Ctrl - Z.

 

Bit late, I know, but next time...

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Nothing to do with the thread, but...

 

If you accidentally highlight and hit delete, or even another character, you erase everything you wrote. Oh....dear.

 

You can get it all back using Ctrl - Z.

 

Bit late, I know, but next time...

I just checked it out - amazing, I didn't know undo worked in this environment. Thanks so VERY much - rep for you! It will be handy in the future.

[Lightray]

If you've read any DC comics featuring Plastic Man' date=' you'll have seen him alter his body into any number of shapes that often resemble particular objects, but are still recognizably Plastic Man: the colors don't change, flesh is still recognizably flesh, etc. This would be an example of Touch Group Shape Shift that doesn't include Sight.[/quote']

Very interesting. But is this supported anywhere in HERO material' date=' FAQ or otherwise, and I missed it? What concerns me with your comment is that the sight sense sees Plastic Man looking very, very different. And if it's dark or Plastic Man is in shadows, in fact, his Shape Shift is working very much against sight. I think you are suggesting something for nothing here - ?[/quote']

I have some reservations about Plastic Man not having Shapeshift - Sight Group, as well. If he changes shape into a mailbox, he does look like a mailbox -- just a very, very strange mailbox. I'd be more inclined to give him the Sight Group adder, and then a limitation (like Visible to Sight Group).

 

 

One of the other main issues that's being brought up with Shapeshift is the cost, particularly in regard to combat use. There's another thread around here on Life Support where similar arguments have been advanced (i.e., that they're point expensive for powers that are primarily special effects, not of use in combat).

 

Life Support comes into play in combat a bit more than Shapeshift (mainly as an NND defense), but I see both of these powers as primarily out-of-combat powers. And when used in out-of-combat situations, they're powers that trump any other method of accomplishing the same thing -- LS: need not breathe is always better than holding breath and making END rolls, Shapeshift is always better than Disguise rolls.

 

So, in effect, I think the cost of Shapeshift and Life Support should be high, because they're guarenteed success at what they do. If you don't want to do that (breathe someplace weird, look like something weird), then it is a high point cost.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Another way to do shapeshift - and I do not think you should - is with a cosmic VPP with very limited power - just one - multiform. In 5th ed Multiform is a Standard not a special power (oh Lordy). For a 70 point pool, control cost is (+2, limited group -1) 52. Power costs you 132 points (chose 70 assuming a 350 point character) and you actually CAN change into pretty much anything and you get the powers to boot.

 

Now if it can cost 80+ points to build a meaningful 'complete' shapeshift, this looks like the way to go for you metamorphs...

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

No, Multi-Form is a way to do a metamorph. And VPP: Multi-Form only has got to be highly illegal.

 

But Shapeshift is shapeshift. And there is no logical reason for shapeshift to be sense-based. It has far more in common with duplication, multi-form, and extra limbs than invisibility.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

No, Multi-Form is a way to do a metamorph. And VPP: Multi-Form only has got to be highly illegal.

 

But Shapeshift is shapeshift. And there is no logical reason for shapeshift to be sense-based. It has far more in common with duplication, multi-form, and extra limbs than invisibility.

 

...but worryingly, VPP Multiform only isn't illegal. Hell, if you are worried about a single power VPP, make it Multi form and transform, it would cost the same and then you could change yourself or anything else you wanted into anything you wanted...used to be under 4th when multiform was a special power, but no more...just checked the erratta and it is still a standard power.

 

On your second point, whilst I can see the internal game logic point of making it sense based, I completely agree with you.

 

It makes sense from a sense point of view but not from a common sense point of view (if you see what I mean), and I'll take playability and ease of use over shoehorned internal consistency any day.

 

Can I take this opportunity to thank Lord Laiden though, for some excellent input which I think does help clarify the issues on shape shifting. I still think it is too expensive based on the utility/other power comparison test, but your insight makes the power as written far easier to understand and so to play.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Very interesting. But is this supported anywhere in HERO material' date=' FAQ or otherwise, and I missed it? What concerns me with your comment is that the sight sense sees Plastic Man looking very, very different. And if it's dark or Plastic Man is in shadows, in fact, his Shape Shift is working very much against sight. I think you are suggesting something for nothing here - ?[/quote']

 

I didn't find any "official" comments supporting this precise position, other than the ones I quoted from previously. Although I did find an old thread on this subject in which we both participated, where I made much the same point. Everything old really is new again.

 

I'm not sure about your point regarding PM being Shifted in shadow, though... doesn't every character get the obscuring benefit of darkness for free?

 

Although I understood your other point that radar just sees a blip of an object and therefore it isn't really a concern re a Shape Shift against sight' date=' wouldn't radar with discriminatory be reporting an outline, and if so, unless one buys Shape Shift versus Radio, doesn't that mean that even on the so-called "sight" basis radar gets past that? And is that appropriate?[/quote']

 

Well, light-based sight doesn't just recognize general outlines; due to different wavelength absorptions it also recognizes colors, textures and reflectivity. Radar being EM radiation like light - simply in a different range of wavelengths - I would expect Discriminatory Radar to be capable of discerning at least some of those kinds of details.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I have some reservations about Plastic Man not having Shapeshift - Sight Group' date=' as well. If he changes shape into a mailbox, he does [i']look[/i] like a mailbox -- just a very, very strange mailbox. I'd be more inclined to give him the Sight Group adder, and then a limitation (like Visible to Sight Group).

 

I can see why you would interpret the effect that way, but that does seem a bit more complicated than I think is necessary, as well as increasing the requisite Active Points. YMMV, of course.

 

The thing is, that mailbox would still be partly flesh-colored, partly red with stripes, and be wearing goggles and a big goofy grin. Whatever Plastic Man contorts himself into, it's always recognizable as Plastic Man. Once you know what he looks like normally you can always spot him in other guises.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I didn't find any "official" comments supporting this precise position, other than the ones I quoted from previously. Although I did find an old thread on this subject in which we both participated, where I made much the same point. Everything old really is new again.

 

I'm not sure about your point regarding PM being Shifted in shadow, though... doesn't every character get the obscuring benefit of darkness for free?

 

Surely, but the difference in this case is that if the Shape Shift isn't against Sight, but we give the benefit of the doubt because he's shaped like something but it still "looks like him," he gets a free Shape Shift against sight when the details of his surface are not apparent. It's tricky.

 

Well, light-based sight doesn't just recognize general outlines; due to different wavelength absorptions it also recognizes colors, textures and reflectivity. Radar being EM radiation like light - simply in a different range of wavelengths - I would expect Discriminatory Radar to be capable of discerning at least some of those kinds of details.

 

Interesting. It sounds like Discriminatory Radar overlaps a lot with sight in a way, at least for this purpose, though I don't know what point I have here...it's late...