Shapeshifting

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Re: Instant Change being based on Transform rather than Shape Shift. My guess would be that it's for two reasons: (1) Shape Shift is now broken down into Sense Groups. For the classic Instant Change where it's clothing that actually changes from one form/material to another, that should cover almost all the Sense Groups by default. (2) Assuming you don't want your clothes to change back when you're Stunned or Knocked Out, you need to buy SS to 0 END and Persistent.

 

Transform does all these things in this particular case more simply and cheaply. Which kind of brings us back to the start of this thread. The issue is much more complicated than that, of course, but one can always reread the whole thread to recap the debate.

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Good point - why is instant change derived from Transform instead of Shape Shift? Shifting shape to Hero form seems like Instant Change in a nutshell!

I've often wondered. The only thing I can think of, is that with the Sense Affects of SS, Transform seemed more appropriate.

 

After giving it a little more thought:

 

There is also the fact that InstaChange had the "Any suit of clothes" option/adder (don't have the BBB handy). SS would mean that even though it looks like a leather jacket, it is still only a windbreaker. Not quite the effect we would want, neh?

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Or maybe' date=' transform should work like shapeshift: you haven't changed Grond into a Belgian Waffle, it is just that he- and everyone else - perceives him that way.[/quote']

 

"Mmmm... Sure tastes like a Belgian Waffle."

"Grond hate Unluck."

 

There is a certain practically to having Shapeshift as Images (except Touch being the strange way that you shift mass around ). The BBB version of Shapeshift had lots of unanswered questions of just how good of a mimic could you be. The solution of breaking down into each sense group and Adders makes Shapeshift easier to GM (Sorry, your Shapeshift can't do that, you need THIS) but it makes it much more expensive to be a shapeshifter, with almost no bonus for (I can only change into these things).

 

It also makes Shapeshift almost exclusively the ability to deceive someone with your Shapeshift power rather than look at the shape I can shift into.

[Kristopher]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I've often wondered. The only thing I can think of, is that with the Sense Affects of SS, Transform seemed more appropriate.

 

After giving it a little more thought:

 

There is also the fact that InstaChange had the "Any suit of clothes" option/adder (don't have the BBB handy). SS would mean that even though it looks like a leather jacket, it is still only a windbreaker. Not quite the effect we would want, neh?

 

IMO, if you have Sight, Hearing, Touch, and Smell/Taste, that would basically turn the windbreaker into a leather jacket.

 

But...sheesh, that's a lot to pay for Instant Change.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

"Mmmm... Sure tastes like a Belgian Waffle."

"Grond hate Unluck."

 

There is a certain practically to having Shapeshift as Images (except Touch being the strange way that you shift mass around ). The BBB version of Shapeshift had lots of unanswered questions of just how good of a mimic could you be. The solution of breaking down into each sense group and Adders makes Shapeshift easier to GM (Sorry, your Shapeshift can't do that, you need THIS) but it makes it much more expensive to be a shapeshifter, with almost no bonus for (I can only change into these things).

 

It also makes Shapeshift almost exclusively the ability to deceive someone with your Shapeshift power rather than look at the shape I can shift into.

 

The problem with this is twofold.

 

1) There are very few shapeshifting SFX that would not involve all sense groups. The rare cases an exception is needed, just adjust with limitations. It also fails to be specific. Example: Plastic Man (DC) can change shape but not color. So does he or does he not need the sight group. Because if he shifts to be a chair, he looks like a chair except its a red and yellow chair.

 

2) Powers are intended to be based on function. the function of telepathy is to know someone's thoughts (which is why it includes empathy). the function of invisibility is to hide from a sense. the function of shapeshift is to alter your form into a different shape. hence, shape SHIFT. now, when i imagine this power....it doesn't sound sense effecting to me. The sense effecting rule is the result of a well-meant but incorrect use of the similiar basis rule that was used to determine the cost of Transform. But the logic doesn't flow here as well.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

The problem with this is twofold.

 

1) There are very few shapeshifting SFX that would not involve all sense groups. The rare cases an exception is needed, just adjust with limitations. It also fails to be specific. Example: Plastic Man (DC) can change shape but not color. So does he or does he not need the sight group. Because if he shifts to be a chair, he looks like a chair except its a red and yellow chair.

 

2) Powers are intended to be based on function. the function of telepathy is to know someone's thoughts (which is why it includes empathy). the function of invisibility is to hide from a sense. the function of shapeshift is to alter your form into a different shape. hence, shape SHIFT. now, when i imagine this power....it doesn't sound sense effecting to me. The sense effecting rule is the result of a well-meant but incorrect use of the similiar basis rule that was used to determine the cost of Transform. But the logic doesn't flow here as well.

Yes, to restate, this is in tandem with my thoughts. The fundamental problem is that a shapeshifter doesn't just "appear" differently so much as he actually is different, and as such the senses that do not apply are the EXCEPTION and NOT the rule.

[Kristopher]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

The problem with this is twofold.

 

1) There are very few shapeshifting SFX that would not involve all sense groups. The rare cases an exception is needed, just adjust with limitations. It also fails to be specific. Example: Plastic Man (DC) can change shape but not color. So does he or does he not need the sight group. Because if he shifts to be a chair, he looks like a chair except its a red and yellow chair.

 

2) Powers are intended to be based on function. the function of telepathy is to know someone's thoughts (which is why it includes empathy). the function of invisibility is to hide from a sense. the function of shapeshift is to alter your form into a different shape. hence, shape SHIFT. now, when i imagine this power....it doesn't sound sense effecting to me. The sense effecting rule is the result of a well-meant but incorrect use of the similiar basis rule that was used to determine the cost of Transform. But the logic doesn't flow here as well.

 

Well said.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Right! And you'll notice that even though SS is built with sense groups, it's not listed as a Sense Affecting Power.

 

If you aren't actually shifting your shape (which as I've said would require Sight, Touch, Sonar, and Radar at a minimum), then why wouldn't you just buy Images instead?

 

What's the difference between Images vs. Smell/Taste and SS Smell/Taste group only? They are:

 

1. SS is no range (self only).

2. SS is "absolute" while Images gives penalties to a Per roll.

3. Images can create the scent of anything. SS requires you to pay for greater flexibility. One scent only/small group of related scents/large group of scents/any scent.

4. SS has options for Imitation and Cellular.

 

If I want to smell like a pine tree to throw off the bloodhounds chasing me, SS or Images will work.

 

The same thing is true for sound-shifting. What's the real world difference between "shape-shifting" my voice into a lion's roar and making a sound "image" of a lion's roar?

 

This is why Shape Shifting should not be based on senses, and should only be used for actual shape alteration.

[Vorsch]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Heros desire to make words not mean what they say "Reasoning from effect" i think its called is dangerous.

 

Stealth as teleport

 

running as a lim of Flying ( look free clinging, powergamers!)

 

Shape shift means changing shape ( Imitation i can accept) its almost a definition.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Re: Instant Change being based on Transform rather than Shape Shift. My guess would be that it's for two reasons: (1) Shape Shift is now broken down into Sense Groups. For the classic Instant Change where it's clothing that actually changes from one form/material to another' date=' that should cover almost all the Sense Groups by default.[/quote']

 

 

...and I think that most peoples understanding of the 'classic shapeshift' is that you actually change shape, which should cover sight and touch and ANY sense that detects shape, like discriminatory radar, discriminatory sonar, spacial awareness and so on. I can see a place for better definition regarding other senses - like smell/taste and hearing, but I think that an awful lot of people would be mollified if shape change was clearly stated to change someone's shape, for all relevant senses perceived that and 'in reality'.

 

I've been thinking about the plastic man thing, and I'm not sure that he has shape shifting at all as defined in HERO these days: it would all be SFX for the powers he is using, be they desolid, killing attack, stretching: the fact that he really does change shape is not really relevant if it is obvious to everyone that it is still him. If the power is not really effecting senses, making him appear to be something that he is not, then one of the classic comic book shape changers doesn't have shape change. Got to be wrong in my opinion.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

As Vorscht alludes to...what effect are we reasoning from that requires Shape Shift to be defined as it is?

 

It seems to me that the redefinition of Shape Shift bought on Senses begs that it's a fine line between this and Images if indeed we are always reasoning from the effects of "it looks like a bug and smells like a bug, but it doesn't sound like a bug."

 

But those aren't the effects we're reasoning from IMHO. MOST often (not always) we're reasoning from "It's a rat, but not REALLY. Really, if we knocked it unconsciouss, it would turn into a human by the name of Buddy Guy!"

 

This alone for me proves the point that Shape Shift should not be bought as it is now being bought.

 

The last two posts really crystalize this for me.

[Lightray]

I've been thinking about the plastic man thing' date=' and I'm not sure that he has shape shifting at all as defined in HERO these days: it would all be SFX for the powers he is using, be they desolid, killing attack, stretching: the fact that he really does change shape is not really relevant if it is obvious to everyone that it is still him. If the power is not really effecting senses, making him appear to be something that he is not, then one of the classic comic book shape changers doesn't have shape change. Got to be wrong in my opinion.[/quote']

For that matter, Plas-as-mailbox isn't really getting the effects of being in a mailbox shape (... whatever those might be). The effect Plas-as-mailbox gets is "don't notice me here".

 

That's more like Invisibility, with a Fringe. And special effects visible to Sight Group ("What's this red-and-flesh colored mailbox doing here?").

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

For that matter, Plas-as-mailbox isn't really getting the effects of being in a mailbox shape (... whatever those might be). The effect Plas-as-mailbox gets is "don't notice me here".

 

That's more like Invisibility, with a Fringe. And special effects visible to Sight Group ("What's this red-and-flesh colored mailbox doing here?").

 

Actually, since he'd be a bright red and yellow mailbox, the effect is not invisibility.

 

How about a better example? In an issue of JLA, Plastic Man shifted into the form of a dress that was worn by Big Barda. The effect of this is (1) not get noticed, (2) he is a dress and can be worn, folded, and neatly is wrapped around Barda's body (thereby occupying almost the same space - maybe we should have him get desolidification and invisibility).

 

This is not an illusion, this is not invisiblity. He is actually a dress being worn by Barda.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Actually, since he'd be a bright red and yellow mailbox, the effect is not invisibility.

 

How about a better example? In an issue of JLA, Plastic Man shifted into the form of a dress that was worn by Big Barda. The effect of this is (1) not get noticed, (2) he is a dress and can be worn, folded, and neatly is wrapped around Barda's body (thereby occupying almost the same space - maybe we should have him get desolidification and invisibility).

 

This is not an illusion, this is not invisiblity. He is actually a dress being worn by Barda.

 

Did she know? Can't imagine she was too chuffed...

 

Maybe a little change environment too: prevent BB from getting chilly. Really can't imagine she was too chuffed. Or Scott Free, for that matter...

 

Presumably, though, he was a bright red and yellow dress. With a face. Anyone who knows him will spot him a mile off. He's a plastic dress with a face and is bright red and yellow. You can bet she wasn't too chuffed...

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Actually, since he'd be a bright red and yellow mailbox, the effect is not invisibility.

 

How about a better example? In an issue of JLA, Plastic Man shifted into the form of a dress that was worn by Big Barda. The effect of this is (1) not get noticed, (2) he is a dress and can be worn, folded, and neatly is wrapped around Barda's body (thereby occupying almost the same space - maybe we should have him get desolidification and invisibility).

 

This is not an illusion, this is not invisiblity. He is actually a dress being worn by Barda.

 

Shrinking, to reduce mass enough to be worn comfortably. Lots and lots of skill levels with Disguise, to Disguise oneself as a dress.

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Shrinking' date=' to reduce mass enough to be worn comfortably. Lots and lots of skill levels with Disguise, to Disguise oneself as a dress.[/quote']

Which brings up the question, why isn't there a Density Decrease? I've got one that I created. Rather, I would like to see two powers: Control Size, Control Density.

 

As a default, it would allow you to alter your size or density (respectively) up or down. You could limit it to positive levels (growth only) or negative levels (shrinking only).

[Lightray]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Actually' date=' since he'd be a bright red and yellow mailbox, the effect is not invisibility.[/quote']

Well, if he's becoming Plas-as-mailbox so he won't be noticed, the power for that is Invisibility.

 

Invisibility doesn't mean you can't notice someone invisible, it means you have to work at noticing them -- hence the PER roll. The fact that he's a red and yellow mailbox just means it's that easier to notice him (and thus the Fringe).

How about a better example? In an issue of JLA, Plastic Man shifted into the form of a dress that was worn by Big Barda. The effect of this is (1) not get noticed, (2) he is a dress and can be worn, folded, and neatly is wrapped around Barda's body (thereby occupying almost the same space - maybe we should have him get desolidification and invisibility).

 

This is not an illusion, this is not invisiblity. He is actually a dress being worn by Barda.

Trickier to do this one without Shapeshift. But it doesn't seem that the effect of this one is at all "provide Barda with clothes".

 

I suppose some kind of Invisibility + Desolidification + Clinging affects solid world might work... But I'd giggle at that on a character sheet so I'm not going to recommend it.

 

It is difficult to define the effect of Shapeshift as "your shape changes", when quite a few other Powers can have that as the special effect of their own effect (e.g., your shape changes to flat and two-dimensional to slide under a door as the special effect of your Desolidification).

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Well' date=' if he's becoming Plas-as-mailbox so he won't be noticed, the power for that [i']is[/i] Invisibility.

 

Invisibility doesn't mean you can't notice someone invisible, it means you have to work at noticing them -- hence the PER roll. The fact that he's a red and yellow mailbox just means it's that easier to notice him (and thus the Fringe).

 

Trickier to do this one without Shapeshift. But it doesn't seem that the effect of this one is at all "provide Barda with clothes".

 

I suppose some kind of Invisibility + Desolidification + Clinging affects solid world might work... But I'd giggle at that on a character sheet so I'm not going to recommend it.

 

It is difficult to define the effect of Shapeshift as "your shape changes", when quite a few other Powers can have that as the special effect of their own effect (e.g., your shape changes to flat and two-dimensional to slide under a door as the special effect of your Desolidification).

 

I'd go more with Stealth as a Power, although I don't mind Invisibility (or even Images).

 

PS - for me, this thread with its various discussions has put the nail in the coffin for 5th Edition Shapeshift. Just Say No.

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Well' date=' if he's becoming Plas-as-mailbox so he won't be noticed, the power for that [i']is[/i] Invisibility.

 

Invisibility doesn't mean you can't notice someone invisible, it means you have to work at noticing them -- hence the PER roll. The fact that he's a red and yellow mailbox just means it's that easier to notice him (and thus the Fringe).

 

Trickier to do this one without Shapeshift. But it doesn't seem that the effect of this one is at all "provide Barda with clothes".

 

I suppose some kind of Invisibility + Desolidification + Clinging affects solid world might work... But I'd giggle at that on a character sheet so I'm not going to recommend it.

 

It is difficult to define the effect of Shapeshift as "your shape changes", when quite a few other Powers can have that as the special effect of their own effect (e.g., your shape changes to flat and two-dimensional to slide under a door as the special effect of your Desolidification).

See, I disagree. One of the main points of SS is that you can look like something other than yourself. For me, Invis is "I don't see anything"...SS is "I don't see anything that look like Bob the Robot."

 

But I agree. SS is not very all encompassing. Any SSer worth his salt is also going to have an MP or points in Desol, Stretching, Growth, Clinging, Attacks, etc. SS is almost like only the first step on the path....

[The Zebediah]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Hmmm....for that matter, why not make all the sense-affecting powers affect, by default (except for one pre-defined weakness, like Desolid) and limit them if you want something that only stands up to a few senses?

 

Or perhaps simply have them apply to all normal senses as default, with avantages or adders to allow them to apply to unusual senses as well?

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Well' date=' if he's becoming Plas-as-mailbox so he won't be noticed, the power for that [i']is[/i] Invisibility.

 

Invisibility doesn't mean you can't notice someone invisible, it means you have to work at noticing them -- hence the PER roll. The fact that he's a red and yellow mailbox just means it's that easier to notice him (and thus the Fringe).

 

My point is the SFX of Plas as a mailbox is not to avoid notice. People easily notice him; far more than even the bright fringe option would entail. At best it could possibly be Images, which has PER penalties.

 

On to Plas as a dress...

 

Trickier to do this one without Shapeshift. But it doesn't seem that the effect of this one is at all "provide Barda with clothes".

 

I suppose some kind of Invisibility + Desolidification + Clinging affects solid world might work... But I'd giggle at that on a character sheet so I'm not going to recommend it.

 

It is also silly to use 70 AP of powers to represent something so lacking in power. This effect includes many minor abilities such as being able to be folded and placed in a box. and i'm sure creative players can think of more uses.

 

It is difficult to define the effect of Shapeshift as "your shape changes", when quite a few other Powers can have that as the special effect of their own effect (e.g., your shape changes to flat and two-dimensional to slide under a door as the special effect of your Desolidification).

 

Why not have just two powers then? Seriously...EB, RKA, HKA, and HA all have the same effect -- they do damage. But with noticably different elements. Suggesting that shapeshift isn't unique enough to be its own power defined as "your shape changes" would suggest any power that overlaps any other power should also be eliminated.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

It's OK if powers overlap a little! It means there is more than one way to do things. There's nothing wrong with that. It helps to ensure that there is always at least one way to do everything.

 

BTW, I would probably not require a character to have Desolid with his SS to fit through small holes. SS+Stretching+Power Skill will work in most cases, and sometimes, I might even allow it without the Stretching. The size of the hole would determine a penalty to the Power Skill roll, or the amount of points spent on SS/Stretching would mitigate it. A drainpipe or a mailslot usually wouldn't be a problem. The eye of a needle would be a significant penalty, however.

[Kristopher]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

"Mmmm... Sure tastes like a Belgian Waffle."

"Grond hate Unluck."

 

I have no idea exactly why, but that is absolutely hilarious.

[Kristopher]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

No, Multi-Form is a way to do a metamorph. And VPP: Multi-Form only has got to be highly illegal.

 

Bad news. I was reading through CKC, and came upon Holocaust's VPP that can only be used to create various Absorbtion setups tailored to whatever threat he's facing. (It's also his third Framework, IIRC.)

 

Why is it we keep coming across published characters who seem to violate the ideas that most of us seem to have about what is acceptable in power builds?

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Bad news. I was reading through CKC, and came upon Holocaust's VPP that can only be used to create various Absorbtion setups tailored to whatever threat he's facing. (It's also his third Framework, IIRC.)

 

Why is it we keep coming across published characters who seem to violate the ideas that most of us seem to have about what is acceptable in power builds?

Because a lot of power-gamers are writers.