Shapeshifting

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Did anyone else find Steve's answer odd? I hope I'm just mis-reading his answer' date=' but it seemed to imply that the alternate forms would be limited to 60 points, and not 60*5, and that because the Multipower was being purchased through a VPP that the alternate forms couldn't buy anypowers that a VPP would be restricted from buying. While the later part seems reasonable, I'm not sure about the point thing.[/quote']

 

I think Steve misunderstood "Multiform only" to be a special effect limitation; in other words, he read it as a VPP used to simulate a "Multiform" rather than one that can only be used to buy the Power Multiform.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

The difference is that the VPP allows the player to tweak and customize the forms every time he uses them.

 

"Since we're facing Dr. Somnus, I'm including LS: Does Not Sleep in my Warrior Gollum form this time."

 

A character with a regular VPP can pull that stunt anyway. In fact, he can cut out the middle man and just add it to his base form AND give it to all his friends.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

A character with a regular VPP can pull that stunt anyway. In fact' date=' he can cut out the middle man and just add it to his base form AND give it to all his friends.[/quote']

 

Good point. And, if a GM wants to restrict the Multiform VPP, he could certainly require all forms be pre-written and pre-approved, avoiding questions like "Since when do elephants need no sleep?" or "Why does your statue form have no life support?"

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

It actually seemed to imply he didn't read it carefully enough to note it WAS a multiform power pool, and not a standard VPP.

 

My take on the VPP approach is a pretty simple one. It cost you 60 points for a 300 point form, plus 45 for an unlimited number of them. If you bought Multiform, you could have spent 60 points for a 300 point form, and 45 for 512 different forms. 512 is enough to be practically unlimited anyway, so let it go.

 

Read Steve's answer again carefully. He also mentions this is a way to gain access to things not normally permitted in a VPP such as frameworks. But it is technically legal.

 

Where his answer becomes strange is that he mentions he uses Multi-Form for metamorphs but fails to emphasis that he does not use a VPP for this.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Read Steve's answer again carefully. He also mentions this is a way to gain access to things not normally permitted in a VPP such as frameworks. But it is technically legal.

 

It reads to me like he said VPP is a poor method because different forms may require Frameworks that a VPP can't provide. Which says to me that he understood the pool as being used to directly buy the alternate form's Powers rather than being used to buy a Multiform.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

How many senses should Shape Shift: Fake Breasts account for?

 

It's not just higher COM with SFX - after all, many aren't affected by that COM-wise (no rude puns, please....).

 

It doesn't cost much as it's very limited part, only one shape, but it costs more for the various senses - they would be seen as breasts by most means.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Changing to Norse Storm Hammer God doesn't help you escape notice or disguise yourself; if anything, Norse Storm Hammer God is more likely to attract unwanted attention.

 

The point of Shape Shift (the Power) is that it's a Sense-fooling ability. It's a flawless self-only Image. If your shapeshift doesn't help your character disguise or conceal himself, than you're looking at the wrong Power. You may not even need to buy a Power at all.

 

OK...

 

NSHG gets practically KO'd by the stun lottery, and he hadn't even bought a ticket. He ducks around a corner, chased by the CheeseMonger, who always uses killing attacks for this very purpose, and there is a crowd of normals. Thinking fast, NSHG changes into wimpy normal who is two foot shorter and completely nondescript, thinking that the CheeseMonger, who doesn't have AE attacks and didn't see him change, is going to have to kill his way through half the crowd before he finds him becasue the change is a flawless self only image: more than enough time to make any number of recoveries then...

 

OK, silly un-heroic example, but the point is changing shape as a sfx CAN be used to your advantage, and it never unbalanced the game. The basic form of Shape SHift only allows you to assume one other form: not too useful, but now you have to pay enough for points for shapeshift that you could have bought 3/4 Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, STUN only, and avoided all that tedious uncertainty.

 

To return to the original point, I am simply saying shape shift is too expensive for its (lack of) utility. I don't like how it works either, but that is another point entirely.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

How many senses should Shape Shift: Fake Breasts account for?

 

It's not just higher COM with SFX - after all, many aren't affected by that COM-wise (no rude puns, please....).

 

It doesn't cost much as it's very limited part, only one shape, but it costs more for the various senses - they would be seen as breasts by most means.

 

Far more than extra limbs. Which is silly.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

OK...

 

NSHG gets practically KO'd by the stun lottery, and he hadn't even bought a ticket. He ducks around a corner, chased by the CheeseMonger, who always uses killing attacks for this very purpose, and there is a crowd of normals. Thinking fast, NSHG changes into wimpy normal who is two foot shorter and completely nondescript, thinking that the CheeseMonger, who doesn't have AE attacks and didn't see him change, is going to have to kill his way through half the crowd before he finds him becasue the change is a flawless self only image: more than enough time to make any number of recoveries then...

 

You don't have to pay points to look like a normal person out of costume (and Norse Storm Hammer God is essentially a costume). Everyone without Distinctive Features is assumed to look like a normal person.

 

EDIT: Also, the change back and forth between identities is assumed to take time (just like a costume-change). If the character hasn't bought Instant Change (Don Bloke's clothes to Norse Storm Hammer God's battle gear and back) I wouldn't let him do it in the middle of a fight, at least not without a significant chance of being caught and ruining his Secret ID.

 

EDIT2: Finally, if the player insists on trying to use the switch back and forth between identities as a disguise, then yes, I'd make him buy Shape Shift. But that's not required by the concept, that's a player trying to get extra mileage out of his special effect. Fine once or twice, but after that you cough up the points.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

How many senses should Shape Shift: Fake Breasts account for?

 

It's not just higher COM with SFX - after all, many aren't affected by that COM-wise (no rude puns, please....).

 

It doesn't cost much as it's very limited part, only one shape, but it costs more for the various senses - they would be seen as breasts by most means.

 

This is not a Power, unless you can tell me what the game effect is.

 

It's certainly not Shape Shift. Possibly a bonus to Disguise Rolls, only to Disguise oneself as a woman.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

This is not a Power, unless you can tell me what the game effect is.

 

It's certainly not Shape Shift. Possibly a bonus to Disguise Rolls, only to Disguise oneself as a woman.

 

Gaaaakkk! That's it though, isn't it? Back to Plastic Man, (practically) everything he does is a sfx for some other power: force wall, entangle, stretching: what is the game effect beyond the base power? Nothing, it's sfx: THE SHAPE SHIFT adds nothing, certainly if built the way HERO currently advocates, so I maintain that one of the best comic book examples of a shapeshifter doesn't have HERO shapeshifting.

 

NSHG's change is not just a Clark Kent 'put on a suit and glasses' thing, it is a bolt of lightning, dividing a huge muscly God from a wimpy looking normal. He doesn't have powers in both forms. It is a real shape shift. Game effect is minimal. The base level of HERO shapeshifting is to a single other form - not much use as a disguise power, and an awful lot to spend to protect your secret ID.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Gaaaakkk! That's it though, isn't it? Back to Plastic Man, (practically) everything he does is a sfx for some other power: force wall, entangle, stretching: what is the game effect beyond the base power? Nothing, it's sfx: THE SHAPE SHIFT adds nothing, certainly if built the way HERO currently advocates, so I maintain that one of the best comic book examples of a shapeshifter doesn't have HERO shapeshifting.

 

Energy Blasts often aren't energy blasts, either. If you're getting hung up on the names of the Powers, you're not taking the proper perspective on the system.

 

 

NSHG's change is not just a Clark Kent 'put on a suit and glasses' thing, it is a bolt of lightning, dividing a huge muscly God from a wimpy looking normal. He doesn't have powers in both forms. It is a real shape shift. Game effect is minimal.

 

If game effect is minimal, it's not a Power. Electro-Eye Blast Man can make his eyes glow blue. That's a "power," but it's not a Power. It doesn't do anything for him. It's a special effect.

 

The switch from Don Bloke to Norse Storm Hammer God is only a Power to the extent that increases his Characteristics and lets him control the weather. He doesn't have to pay extra for the physical change any more than Tommy Stork has to pay extra to change his appearance when he puts on or takes off his armor.

 

*Are* you making Tommy Stork buy Shape Shift (armored form) OIF Armor? Why not? Certainly no one looking at Tommy Stork is able to visually connect him to Powered Armor Man. Powered Armor Man might be able to infiltrate an enemy base in his Tommy Stork guise. Should he pay points for the privilege?

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Energy Blasts often aren't energy blasts' date=' either. If you're getting hung up on the names of the Powers, you're not taking the proper perspective on the system.[/quote']

Yeah, but how much of that is legacy? Didn't EBs (WAAAAAAY back when) used to actually be vs ED? Think of the reaction when the next version came out and they looked through the book and said EBs...vs ***PD***?? Yes, maybe SS will end up like this someday and we will laugh about all this. Until then....

 

I don't think its unreasonable for the Power name to be related to the default effects of the Power. If the Power is called Telekinesis, I'm expecting to move things without touching them. If a Power is called Flight, I'm expecting some kind of aerial movement. If the Power is called Shape Shift, I'm expecting to be able to shift my shape. Otherwise we might as well rename all the powers into un-pronouncable characters (eg The Power Formally Known as EnergyBlast).

 

To further flog the pony: What if, for whatever reason, TK became No Range by default? IMO, that is what has happened to SS. It no longer meets the expectation of the power. Further, it has left gaping holes and quandries.

 

When was the last time this kind of effort was spent on "I just don't get it" when talking about a power? Combined, we probably have more years in Hero than the US has been around. Something strange is going on when that happens. I'm calling Mulder and Scully.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

I don't think its unreasonable for the Power name to be related to the default effects of the Power. If the Power is called Telekinesis, I'm expecting to move things without touching them. If a Power is called Flight, I'm expecting some kind of aerial movement. If the Power is called Shape Shift, I'm expecting to be able to shift my shape. Otherwise we might as well rename all the powers into un-pronouncable characters (eg The Power Formally Known as EnergyBlast).

 

This is a red herring, because Shape Shift *does* change one's shape, from a sensory standpoint. The problem is that people keep wanting to project different functions on top of it instead of looking at additional Powers like they should (or, conversely, they mistakenly think they *have* to buy Shape Shift to be able to do non-functional, completely SFX related appearance changes like glowing eyes or fake breasts).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Energy Blasts often aren't energy blasts' date=' either. If you're getting hung up on the names of the Powers, you're not taking the proper perspective on the system.[/quote']

 

Tosh. A physical energy blast or an energy energy blast do exactly what they say on the box. Kinetic energy is energy as much as radiation is. The name of the power is supposed to give a pretty big clue as to what it does, and if it doesn't there is probably a really good reason, and by good I mean bad.

 

If game effect is minimal, it's not a Power. Electro-Eye Blast Man can make his eyes glow blue. That's a "power," but it's not a Power. It doesn't do anything for him. It's a special effect.

 

The switch from Don Bloke to Norse Storm Hammer God is only a Power to the extent that increases his Characteristics and lets him control the weather. He doesn't have to pay extra for the physical change any more than Tommy Stork has to pay extra to change his appearance when he puts on or takes off his armor.

 

*Are* you making Tommy Stork buy Shape Shift (armored form) OIF Armor? Why not? Certainly no one looking at Tommy Stork is able to visually connect him to Powered Armor Man. Powered Armor Man might be able to infiltrate an enemy base in his Tommy Stork guise. Should he pay points for the privilege?

 

You seem to be arguing both sides here. My contention is that shapeshift costs too much, that's my side. Oh, and it doesn't do what it says on the box. HERO defines SS as a sense affecting power, while actually calling it a Body power (another anomaly there, methinks). SS at present is a perfectly valid way to represent NSHG or Tommy Storks ability to look different. In fact, let's forget it is called shapeshift and let us call it 'Be Perceived Differently Power' (a catchy name I think you'll agree) because that is what it does. Mind you, to actually make anyone pay for this would be high order lunacy...and that is the core of my objection to the new way it is done.

 

The Justicar: Villainy is Vanquished! But, rough fight, I'd better comb my hair before the press get here!

 

GM: You can't do that, you haven't got Be Perceived Differently Power.

 

What I'm after is a power that allows a character to Shift (by which I mean change) Shape (by which I mean...well...shape). To me that would be shape shifting.

 

M'kay, so what are you saying it is about NEW! IMPROVED! shape shift that justifies the cost? Looking like someone specific is a single 10 point adder. That is the main utility in the power and as I suggested earlier should probably cost MORE, but shape shift in itself is of very limited use, if you leave imitation aside.

 

Shapeshift is one of a small handful of powers with no effect on combat, and all the other ones (Mind Link, Clairsentience, Mind Scan) are all pretty darned useful for the poiints.

 

So what does shape shift (sans imitation) do? Not a lot, really.

 

The point is it is (imitation aside) largely a cosmetic power, and as such COSTS TOO MUCH.

 

So we need to either decrease the cost or increase the meaty goodness. Preferably in a way that makes it seem like the character is changing shape...

 

Stuff like you can modify your COM. No one uses COM anyway 99% of the time. No biggie. Extra PRE attack dice too. You can squeeze through tiny gaps (I was never entirely happy letting that one got to desolid, it is just that is how it was always done...it is clearly changing shape) You can hide stuff inside you. You are utterly impossible to arm lock or choke. Give that a basic cost, 30 points and say that if you change shape, your shape is *&%$£!*& well changed, and every sense that can discern shape knows it. Limitations for limited scope (limited number of forms or whatever) advantage for imitation (+1/2). We'll keep the cellular adder and say that if someone with it changes into a chair, to all intents and purposes they appear to be made of wood. True shapeshifters ignore increased or decreased damage due to hit location. Whatever, but it should be something unique that doesn't feel like half the other powers. We can have an adder to change scent, or maybe another power entirely. Change scent. 10 points. That was easy.

 

I'm going on a bit...

 

Look, I'm sorry if I come across a bit testy: it's that time of my life.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

By Thunder, I've just realised that is pretty much how 4th edition did shapeshift!

 

(irony)

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Far more than extra limbs. Which is silly.

BREAST LIMBS! A whole new NPC is born...

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

This is not a Power, unless you can tell me what the game effect is.

 

It's certainly not Shape Shift. Possibly a bonus to Disguise Rolls, only to Disguise oneself as a woman.

I want people to thinik I have big breasts, measurably big, massive hooters that stretch out in front of me. Game effect enough for me. I don't want a rep that I "might" do it and I don't want comeliness as that isn't accurate.

 

Disguise is possible. But what if I just want to actually have those big breasts at will?

 

It's a silly example, but the core issue is that there is indeed a difference in game effect between simply having something and allowing for that effect as such versus having to buy it versus multiple senses for no real gain on those many fronts, yet not being able to "let go" and just hand-wave as in fact the rules do state otherwise.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Gaaaakkk! That's it though, isn't it? Back to Plastic Man, (practically) everything he does is a sfx for some other power: force wall, entangle, stretching: what is the game effect beyond the base power? Nothing, it's sfx: THE SHAPE SHIFT adds nothing, certainly if built the way HERO currently advocates, so I maintain that one of the best comic book examples of a shapeshifter doesn't have HERO shapeshifting.

 

NSHG's change is not just a Clark Kent 'put on a suit and glasses' thing, it is

a bolt of lightning, dividing a huge muscly God from a wimpy looking normal. He doesn't have powers in both forms. It is a real shape shift. Game effect is minimal. The base level of HERO shapeshifting is to a single other form - not much use as a disguise power, and an awful lot to spend to protect your secret ID.

The thing is, I think Plastic Man only has Shape Shift for ONE reason, a reason very similar to our Shape Shifter - his various powers are linked to his core ability to do that. Deprive him of that one power and he's lost all other abilities. And because it is a power construct as opposed to "Limitation: Must be able to change shape" there is a built-in game method to deal with it (Drain, Suppress, etc.).

 

So although on one hand I totally see the "shape shift is entirely SFX" argument, I think it's worthy of note that the SS power becomes an integral yet viable independent construct even where it in and of itself does very little, and this EVEN FURTHER reinforces my view that senses should be designed on an exception rather than a "which do I buy" basis.

 

PS - I should also admit that having just done an unusual change with our Shape Shifter, I did use the Sense Group Adder value to create an add-on core ability, along with IPE, for mental invisibility/identity change. I don't have a problem with the add-ons in 5th as a guideline to expanding and refining Shape Shift, but at the least Shape Shift really needs a built-in "this comes with (x) built-in, add or remove by Sense Group" or similar as compared to the current "you get one group, figure out the rest" approach.

[zornwil]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

This is a red herring' date=' because Shape Shift *does* change one's shape, from a sensory standpoint. The problem is that people keep wanting to project different functions on top of it instead of looking at additional Powers like they should (or, conversely, they mistakenly think they *have* to buy Shape Shift to be able to do non-functional, completely SFX related appearance changes like glowing eyes or fake breasts).[/quote']

I think the problem is that one has to cover every Sensory basis for what may be a fairly trivial additional game effect ("I need Detail Radar to show the character's outline the same as his shape actually is" (which is an odd thing to have to ask for)) but is still nonetheless best covered by Shape Shift.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

The thing is' date=' I think Plastic Man only has Shape Shift for ONE reason, a reason very similar to our Shape Shifter - his various powers are linked to his core ability to do that. Deprive him of that one power and he's lost all other abilities. And because it is a power construct as opposed to "Limitation: Must be able to change shape" there is a built-in game method to deal with it (Drain, Suppress, etc.).[/quote']

 

Oh absolutely, basically link all the powers to shapeshift...but you can probably just do it by putting the powers in an EC, and call the pool 'shapeshifting', or linking them all to physical damage reduction or stretching, and have the same sort of effect, calling any changes of shape sfx.

 

Contrary to the way I'm probably coming across I don't want to lose shape shift, I would prefer it if is was a more unique power though, and I admit I have a problem with the name/function dichotomy so as a distant second I would settle for a name change to Be Perceived Differently Power . I'd sleep better.

[Rapier]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

BREAST LIMBS! A whole new NPC is born...

Someone brings up Stretching - 1 Limb Only and I'm out of here.

 

Oh wait. I just did. DRAT!

 

: stomps out :

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Tosh. A physical energy blast or an energy energy blast do exactly what they say on the box. Kinetic energy is energy as much as radiation is. The name of the power is supposed to give a pretty big clue as to what it does' date=' and if it doesn't there is probably a really good reason, and by good I mean bad.[/quote']

 

And Shape Shift changes shape. That it doesn't do out-of-the-box every aspect of shape-changing you want is part and parcel of an effects based system.

 

 

You seem to be arguing both sides here.

 

Not at all. I'm pointing out that NSHG's alternate identity isn't fundamentally different than a guy putting on a suit of power armor. If you're making the former buy Shape Shift (and I wouldn't), then you have no reason not to make the latter as well, and that just shows how silly the idea is.

 

My contention is that shapeshift costs too much, that's my side. Oh, and it doesn't do what it says on the box.

 

Shape Shift does exactly what Shape Shift is described as doing. Your preconceptions are irrelevant.

 

 

SS at present is a perfectly valid way to represent NSHG or Tommy Storks ability to look different.

 

It is, if they use them as Super-Disguises. But they don't. (And they'd be foolish to, given their Secret IDs.)

 

 

In fact, let's forget it is called shapeshift and let us call it 'Be Perceived Differently Power' (a catchy name I think you'll agree) because that is what it does. Mind you, to actually make anyone pay for this would be high order lunacy...and that is the core of my objection to the new way it is done.

 

Making someone pay to be perceived as having a different hair-style would be lunacy. Making them pay to be perceived as a rock, or a tree, or wall-painting is totally reasonable. People don't generally attack rocks or trees or paintings for no reason, or give them more than a cursory look.

 

M'kay, so what are you saying it is about NEW! IMPROVED! shape shift that justifies the cost? Looking like someone specific is a single 10 point adder. That is the main utility in the power and as I suggested earlier should probably cost MORE, but shape shift in itself is of very limited use, if you leave imitation aside.

 

Shapeshift is one of a small handful of powers with no effect on combat, and all the other ones (Mind Link, Clairsentience, Mind Scan) are all pretty darned useful for the poiints.

 

So what does shape shift (sans imitation) do? Not a lot, really.

 

This betrays a startling lack of imagination. Without imitation, Shape Shift can be used to hide, spy, shadow, trigger Psych Lims, draw enemies into traps, pull Trojan Horse ploys, get access to restricted areas. Even a one shape, Sight only Shape Shift can be nearly as good as Invisibility if the right shape is chosen.

 

Stuff like you can modify your COM. No one uses COM anyway 99% of the time. No biggie. Extra PRE attack dice too. You can squeeze through tiny gaps (I was never entirely happy letting that one got to desolid, it is just that is how it was always done...it is clearly changing shape) You can hide stuff inside you. You are utterly impossible to arm lock or choke. Give that a basic cost, 30 points and say that if you change shape, your shape is *&%$£!*& well changed, and every sense that can discern shape knows it. Limitations for limited scope (limited number of forms or whatever) advantage for imitation (+1/2). We'll keep the cellular adder and say that if someone with it changes into a chair, to all intents and purposes they appear to be made of wood. True shapeshifters ignore increased or decreased damage due to hit location. Whatever, but it should be something unique that doesn't feel like half the other powers. We can have an adder to change scent, or maybe another power entirely. Change scent. 10 points. That was easy.

 

This is caused-based thinking, not effects based. You just described a Heroes Unlimited Power, not a Hero Power.

 

And you under-charged for it.

 

And this is *not* how 4E Shape Shift worked. If you thought it gave players an immunity to Grabs and the ability to squeeze through any crack for 30 points, you read it wrong, 'cause the description sure as heck doesn't say that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

Shape Shift does exactly what Shape Shift is described as doing. Your preconceptions are irrelevant.

 

What Shape Shift seems to do is provide Images, Self Only, no range, No PER Roll. If I want to be perceived as something I'm not, limited Images seems a very effective means under the rules as written.

 

Actually changing your physical shape seems, to me, a completely different ability. I don't "look like" a baseball - you can actually pitch me as I am shaped axactly like a real baseball.

 

Making someone pay to be perceived as having a different hair-style would be lunacy. Making them pay to be perceived as a rock' date=' or a tree, or wall-painting is totally reasonable. People don't generally attack rocks or trees or paintings for no reason, or give them more than a cursory look.[/quote']

 

So how is Shape Shift different from Images to the same sense groups, with a huge negative PER modifier? All we seem to need is a "no PER roll" advantage for images and the current Shape Shift is redundant. But someone who actually wants a character who can change shape - well, too bad!

 

Whyen Plastic Man shapeshifts into a bucket in the comics, you can use him to carry water. When he shape shifts using Hero rules, well gosh he sure LOOKED like a bucket.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Shapeshifting

 

What Shape Shift seems to do is provide Images, Self Only, no range, No PER Roll. If I want to be perceived as something I'm not, limited Images seems a very effective means under the rules as written.

 

Actually changing your physical shape seems, to me, a completely different ability. I don't "look like" a baseball - you can actually pitch me as I am shaped axactly like a real baseball.

 

That's why there's no PER Roll. It's assumed to be an actual change, so it can't be "seen through," except using Sense Groups your change doesn't cover.

 

 

So how is Shape Shift different from Images to the same sense groups, with a huge negative PER modifier? All we seem to need is a "no PER roll" advantage for images and the current Shape Shift is redundant. But someone who actually wants a character who can change shape - well, too bad!

 

There are a lot of Powers that could be eliminated by using Advantages and Limitations on other Powers. Shape Shift is a separate Power because it uses somewhat different rules assumptions than Images and because it is convenient to separate them. The alternative would be another Healing/Regeneration style combo power which would certainly displease as many or more people as it pleased.

 

Whyen Plastic Man shapeshifts into a bucket in the comics, you can use him to carry water. When he shape shifts using Hero rules, well gosh he sure LOOKED like a bucket.

 

That fits under the SFX of his Shape Shift. A bucket-shaped character being able to carry water like a bucket is not worth points (though he will need Shrinking to reduce his size and mass enough to actually be carried by anyone other than the team brick).

 

Super-Illusion Man, though, couldn't carry the water. He just looks exactly like a bucket.

 

EDIT: OTOH, if Plastic Man wanted to shape shift into a giant bucket with legs and act as his own massive mobile water-carrying device, I'd probably require him to use his VPP to buy No Range Telekinesis Affects Porous. Shape Shift shouldn't be used as a cheap VPP, and I get the sense that a lot of people seem to want to use it that way.