Oihid

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

You consider a multipart scenario to be tossing the assumptions of the game out the window? You've never ran a multi-session scenario before?

 

Multisession scenarios are a staple of Hero gaming.

 

Actually, it would be the other way around.

 

They are indeed a staple.

 

But sometimes, people don't actually have them. That doesn't make charges 'broken' any more than never bringing up OIHID makes OIHID broken.

 

If Hero ID is all that you ever need powers in, then effectively the GM is giving EVERYONE the OIHID limitation for 0pts. If no one ever fires an attack more than 12 times before returning to base, he's giving EVERYONE Charges for 0pts.

 

_That_ is the problem.

 

Even Activation roll can be like that if he always say 'whatever. 15- is a Gimme'.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

It was a custom modifier. About which the rules specify little.

Does this quibble relate in any way to the suggested fix of Taking defenses with no limitations on them?

 

 

If you don't put the limitation on defenses, then you're saving fewer points. You're probably saving 35 pts now instead of 50.

 

 

 

50pts pf OIHID?

 

To be 'worth' 50 points as a Disadvantage, it would have to be equivalent to 50 points of Physical Limitations in being interesting...

 

10 Albinism

20 Blind

5 Low Body Temperature

15 One Arm

 

Equivalency? Your Captain Marvel Clone is equally interesting as the Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino?

 

It's either a -1/4 lim, or 15-20pt disadvantage. 50pt Disadvantage is too high...

 

...and it's not because it's not worth 50 points. It's because disadvantages, inverted into powers, would mostly be worth more than they cost. (Anti-Hunted costs a lot more than Hunted, for example...)

 

 

I think a Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino would be unplayable and uninteresting. Why do you think Captain Marvel has lasted so long in comics while stuff like a Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino are stuck to being mere supporting characters when they appear at all?

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Yeah' date=' it gets to one of my philosophies. If the majority of players want to play 450 pt characters in a 350 pt world, it's more honest to just give everyone an extra 100 pts each. If only one or two want to, while the majority want to play a 350, then we have a problem.[/quote']

 

This is kind of an "eh" issue for me. If Player A wants a magic sword because his character concept includes "I've got a big sword!", and if I as the GM like that idea, I'll probably OK it. It does give him more bang for his buck than Player B (who took no limits on his powers), but I can take care of that by having a few game events where Sword Man has no sword. OIHID is the same; I can always throw in events where OIHID guy can't change, or changes back at an awkward moment, or has whatever trouble makes sense to make up for the extra points he gets for the limit. If Sword Guy were a munchkin, I wouldn't have OKed his character in the first place. (replace "Sword" with "Magic Ring" for a straight comparison of IIF vs OIHID).

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Actually, it would be the other way around.

 

They are indeed a staple.

 

But sometimes, people don't actually have them. That doesn't make charges 'broken' any more than never bringing up OIHID makes OIHID broken.

 

If Hero ID is all that you ever need powers in, then effectively the GM is giving EVERYONE the OIHID limitation for 0pts. If no one ever fires an attack more than 12 times before returning to base, he's giving EVERYONE Charges for 0pts.

 

_That_ is the problem.

 

Even Activation roll can be like that if he always say 'whatever. 15- is a Gimme'.

 

 

It seems to me that having a multi-session scenario or a dozen agents pop up or an alien horde is more common than a character being attacked in normal ID. Especially if you use the default rules and allow the character to abort to heroic ID.

 

As for the activation roll, sure if the GM ignores the rules, it's broken. Just like if the GM allowed you to roll 20d6 killing attack when you pull out a .38 pistol. However, we're not talking about such a situation.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

It seems to me that having a multi-session scenario or a dozen agents pop up or an alien horde is more common than a character being attacked in normal ID. Especially if you use the default rules and allow the character to abort to heroic ID.

 

As for the activation roll, sure if the GM ignores the rules, it's broken. Just like if the GM allowed you to roll 20d6 killing attack when you pull out a .38 pistol. However, we're not talking about such a situation.

 

Sure, abort to Hero ID. Every single combat? That's gonna hurt. Especially if you have multiple combats in a single scenario...

 

...and especially if the GM is doing their job, and having your 'distinct, separate identity' that is the _prerequisite_ for OIHID actually exist. Ignoring THAT rule (that the other ID is a limitation, y'know...) is the same thing as your wonderful 20d6 Killing Pistol.

 

It's NOT following the rules and then getting upset because it wasn't perfectly balanced.

 

Wow. I feel so much sympathy... wait, no, you brought the 'brokenness' upon yourself.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

If you don't put the limitation on defenses, then you're saving fewer points. You're probably saving 35 pts now instead of 50.

[/Quote]

 

Not at all... it doesn't even need to be full DEF, after all. Just enough to stay alive and conscious when you blow the roll.

 

You know... like Captain Levram () and his way of dealing with the ambushes that otherwise have the GM saying 'sorry dude... go read a book till he comes round'.

 

I think a Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino would be unplayable and uninteresting. Why do you think Captain Marvel has lasted so long in comics while stuff like a Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino are stuck to being mere supporting characters when they appear at all?

 

Because Physical Limitations are the one category no one takes 50pts from?

 

50 points worth of Psych Lims gives you an interesting personality.

50 points of Social Lims gives you Spidey's life.

50 pts of Vulnerabilities gives you Superman (or something...)

50 pts of Hunteds gives you a Rogues Gallery.

 

50 points worth of "OIHID - The Disadvantage" gives you? What? The third (and I'm being generous) most popular Superman Variation?

 

Oh wait... he has other stuff too. Like his own villains, and Accidental change, and Psych lims, and, and, and...

 

Which, y'know, he would have nowhere near as much of if he only had 2/3rds the disads.

 

Besides which, comics aren't roleplaying. In game, the lack of personality, or enemies, or whatever else it is you cut from his disads because you had a 50pts lump sum... will give you less to play with.

[Rapier]

Re: Oihid

 

I believe the rule in 5E is that a -1/4 limitation should effect the character about one in four adventures.

Even that I think is a little excessive. While this is how I handle all limitations, I'm going to run with the IIF example.

 

1) I don't sit around planning adventures and think "Oh is it Thursday? The HumanHammer needs to lose his focus again tonight." However, I might shift a plot/villainuous hideout a few blocks east to drop it next to the power station (Intense Magentic Fields...TAKE THAT). For the most part, most of the limitations end up becoming limitations for that game because of the situation (eg villains targets Lumberjack's axe) with the notable exceptions of the Not in Intense Magnetic Fields man...which takes a little more planning. But even that planning is appropriate. I find it's easier to develop a villain that can take advantage of a hero's limitation/disads. Electrode Ed has his hideout in an old hydroelectric dam (and I'll be your dam opponent).

 

2) There are levels/grades of the limitation effect. Sometimes the limitation is only useless for a phase (knocked out of someone's hand...while not exactly IIF appropriate I drew a blank), a turn, a portion of a session or even multiple sessions. Sometimes instead of having the limitation active every 2 or 3 sessions, there is a long span where it has no effect and then is totally inactive for a session or two. This lets things flow a little more naturally and doesn't seem so staged (ONCE...ONCE...and they still make jokes up Disarm Night ). Besides it is VERY difficult to work all player's disads and limitations into a single session or five. You HAVE to spread them out.

 

Limitations need to limit a power to be worth points. It doesn't take any more effort to stage a combat on the beach (not in water), in a nuclear waste site (not in high radiation), the desert (not in dry conditions) or a power station (not in hgih EM fields) as it does a warehouse, a bank, a street corner, a sport arena or an expressway.

 

Villains should be using tactics (at least the serious villainy types should, not necessarily the comic relief type). Tactics involves disarming the WildWeasel of his WeaelGun, stealing the FlyingRat's utility belt while he is entangled, targetting The SLUG's GooFlinger etc.

 

If you aren't doing these things, you are doing a great disservice to yourself and your players. Any real RPer (as opposed to the dastardly MetaGamer in Disguise) WANTS you to use the lims. Its fun and exciting...and a challenge.

[Rapier]

Re: Oihid

 

Let me introduce you to the major villain Professor Pervert....

And his main power:

 

PantyRaid: 50" Teleport, 1 Floating Location (-1 Only into Women's Bedrooms)

 

and

 

Peepers: Clairsentience, Only Able to View Through Bathroom Mirrors

[Rapier]

Re: Oihid

 

The trouble with that limitation is that usually it takes a "I'm the GM and I'm going to screw with your character" scenario to make it come up. And there are only a limited number of times that the GM can realistically run this type of scenario' date=' and even if you didn't have OIHID, the GM could still run that type of scenario against you anyway.[/quote']

If this is an accurate assessment, I have great pity for you. The relationship should never be that adversarial. Either the GM is not doing a very good job of running sessions or the players are WAY too uptight and need to chill (and maybe grow up).

 

I've even been a player (although it's been a while) and I've GMed Champions for 14 years now. Player's fully expect their limitations and disads to come into play. If they don't they are very out of touch (and IMNSHO in the vast minority). It almost sounds like you guys need to sit down out-of-game and discuss things.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

And please lay off the insults and personal digs.

I'm very sorry you took it as an insult; it was intended only as an observation that you apparently like clearly quantifiable and predictable numbers in your games. Considering you're a serious devotee of Advanced Squad Leader, that's hardly an insult. I get the distinct impression you'd be happier with OIHID if it had "14-" tacked onto it to indicate relative frequency of occurence.

 

OIHID does take rather more attention and subtlety to run than many Limitations, both for both the GM and the player. If you don't like it, fine. Don't use it or allow it in your campaign. But there is nothing inherently broken about the Limitation itself.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Sure, abort to Hero ID. Every single combat? That's gonna hurt. Especially if you have multiple combats in a single scenario...

 

...and especially if the GM is doing their job, and having your 'distinct, separate identity' that is the _prerequisite_ for OIHID actually exist. Ignoring THAT rule (that the other ID is a limitation, y'know...) is the same thing as your wonderful 20d6 Killing Pistol.

 

It's NOT following the rules and then getting upset because it wasn't perfectly balanced.

 

Wow. I feel so much sympathy... wait, no, you brought the 'brokenness' upon yourself.

 

 

I find that the vast majority of combats start with the character in hero ID. Even most people on this board don't pretend otherwise. So I'd say that "Every single combat" is an exaggeration.

 

The alternate form does exist. Where have I ever stated that it didn't?

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Not at all... it doesn't even need to be full DEF, after all. Just enough to stay alive and conscious when you blow the roll.

 

You know... like Captain Levram () and his way of dealing with the ambushes that otherwise have the GM saying 'sorry dude... go read a book till he comes round'.

 

 

If the player did that, it would make OIHID even less of a limitation than it already is. Is that the point you're trying to make?

 

 

Because Physical Limitations are the one category no one takes 50pts from?

 

50 points worth of Psych Lims gives you an interesting personality.

50 points of Social Lims gives you Spidey's life.

50 pts of Vulnerabilities gives you Superman (or something...)

50 pts of Hunteds gives you a Rogues Gallery.

 

50 points worth of "OIHID - The Disadvantage" gives you? What? The third (and I'm being generous) most popular Superman Variation?

 

Oh wait... he has other stuff too. Like his own villains, and Accidental change, and Psych lims, and, and, and...

 

Which, y'know, he would have nowhere near as much of if he only had 2/3rds the disads.

 

Besides which, comics aren't roleplaying. In game, the lack of personality, or enemies, or whatever else it is you cut from his disads because you had a 50pts lump sum... will give you less to play with.

 

 

Nothing stops anyone from taking more limitations than 150. They simply don't get any points for the excess limitations. I've had characters in the past with more than 50 pts of hunteds or psych lims before simply because it made sense for the character. So why should you care if someone can get 50 from this category? Besides, you seem to be arguing that physical lims are inherently less interesting than other lims. I disagree.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

If this is an accurate assessment, I have great pity for you. The relationship should never be that adversarial. Either the GM is not doing a very good job of running sessions or the players are WAY too uptight and need to chill (and maybe grow up).

 

I've even been a player (although it's been a while) and I've GMed Champions for 14 years now. Player's fully expect their limitations and disads to come into play. If they don't they are very out of touch (and IMNSHO in the vast minority). It almost sounds like you guys need to sit down out-of-game and discuss things.

 

 

What the heck makes you think it's an adversarial situation? Players expect to be screwed with from time to time.

 

You're missing out on a great deal of fun if your GM never screws with your character.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

This is kind of an "eh" issue for me. If Player A wants a magic sword because his character concept includes "I've got a big sword!"' date=' and if I as the GM like that idea, I'll probably OK it. It does give him more bang for his buck than Player B (who took no limits on his powers), but I can take care of that by having a few game events where Sword Man has no sword. OIHID is the same; I can always throw in events where OIHID guy can't change, or changes back at an awkward moment, or has whatever trouble makes sense to make up for the extra points he gets for the limit. If Sword Guy were a munchkin, I wouldn't have OKed his character in the first place. (replace "Sword" with "Magic Ring" for a straight comparison of IIF vs OIHID).[/quote']

 

There are degrees of course. I have no problem with a magic sword or ring because presumably it's a relatively small percentage of a character's points.

 

I dislike disads that affect the vast majority of a character's points. The ones where the character is terrifyingly powerful 95% of the time but helpless 5% of the time.

[Rapier]

Re: Oihid

 

What the heck makes you think it's an adversarial situation?

Your diction, actually.

 

Players expect to be screwed with from time to time.

 

You're missing out on a great deal of fun if your GM never screws with your character.

Ah. You see I read "screw with your character" in a negative light. I prefer to think of it as bringing your disads and limitations into the foreground of the setting. But for other than a preference for certain turns of phrase, we are in agreement.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Your diction, actually.

 

 

Ah. You see I read "screw with your character" in a negative light. I prefer to think of it as bringing your disads and limitations into the foreground of the setting. But for other than a preference for certain turns of phrase, we are in agreement.

 

 

Let me expand on my previous statement that you replied to. I feel that the obvious and most common way to exploit OIHID is to attack the character in his normal ID when he has no support. IOW, the GM has to setup some sort of ambush situation. However, the GM could setup the same sort of situation even if the character doesn't have OIHID. It's just that in the second case, the GM will use 3 normal villains or 1 powerful one to take out the hero instead of one normal villain like in the first case.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

I'm very sorry you took it as an insult; it was intended only as an observation that you apparently like clearly quantifiable and predictable numbers in your games. Considering you're a serious devotee of Advanced Squad Leader' date=' that's hardly an insult. I get the distinct impression you'd be happier with OIHID if it had "14-" tacked onto it to indicate relative frequency of occurence.[/quote']

 

You obviously don't know ASL very well if you think that it's "clearly quantifiable and predictable".

 

 

OIHID does take rather more attention and subtlety to run than many Limitations, both for both the GM and the player. If you don't like it, fine. Don't use it or allow it in your campaign. But there is nothing inherently broken about the Limitation itself.

 

 

As I said, in actual practice it seems to come up less than a limitation that saves 50-75 pts should come up.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

I find that the vast majority of combats start with the character in hero ID. Even most people on this board don't pretend otherwise. So I'd say that "Every single combat" is an exaggeration.

 

The alternate form does exist. Where have I ever stated that it didn't?

 

Let me rephrase that... The alternate form must be more than just special effects. You must actually spend a significant portion of your "screen time" as the normal. Otherwise, it's really not a separate identity. It's just what your PC does when he's not doing the important stuff.

 

For example, my last PC idea with OIHID:

Enigma II. He has a Symbiote. HIS Symbiote, however, is also a DNPC. It normally hides in his backpack. Why? Because Simon has the attention span of a gnat, and wearing him all the time could lead to problems.

 

Or my player with OIHID: Fury. He's a Werewolf. You do not want to walk around as a werewolf. People get a little upset.

 

If your Secret ID is more Bruce Wayne than Clark Kent (ie he exists, and you to conceal your double life, but he's hardly ever relevant), then OIHID is not a limitation.

 

Strangely enough, I can't think of any comic book 'OIHID' characters like that... for some reason, they do usually start of with 'and now to transform!'.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

If the player did that, it would make OIHID even less of a limitation than it already is. Is that the point you're trying to make?

 

The POINT is that Activation 15- is "broken" in precisely the same way, except it's down to die rolls to punish them, not the GM... and die rolls don't decide to slack off.

 

Nothing stops anyone from taking more limitations than 150. They simply don't get any points for the excess limitations. I've had characters in the past with more than 50 pts of hunteds or psych lims before simply because it made sense for the character. So why should you care if someone can get 50 from this category? Besides, you seem to be arguing that physical lims are inherently less interesting than other lims. I disagree.

 

Masses of Physical Lims are stupid. One or two is a nice hook.

 

And your argument here is a complete nullity. If people are going to go over 150 ANYWAY, why does OIHID need to be a 50pt disadvantage? The only time that will be relevant is when they _don't_ go over, and in those cases, the PC will be more boring.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Let me rephrase that... The alternate form must be more than just special effects. You must actually spend a significant portion of your "screen time" as the normal. Otherwise, it's really not a separate identity. It's just what your PC does when he's not doing the important stuff.

 

For example, my last PC idea with OIHID:

Enigma II. He has a Symbiote. HIS Symbiote, however, is also a DNPC. It normally hides in his backpack. Why? Because Simon has the attention span of a gnat, and wearing him all the time could lead to problems.

 

Or my player with OIHID: Fury. He's a Werewolf. You do not want to walk around as a werewolf. People get a little upset.

 

If your Secret ID is more Bruce Wayne than Clark Kent (ie he exists, and you to conceal your double life, but he's hardly ever relevant), then OIHID is not a limitation.

 

Strangely enough, I can't think of any comic book 'OIHID' characters like that... for some reason, they do usually start of with 'and now to transform!'.

 

 

What you're describing actually sounds more like multiform than OIHID.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

The POINT is that Activation 15- is "broken" in precisely the same way' date=' except it's down to die rolls to punish them, not the GM... and die rolls don't decide to slack off.[/quote']

 

 

I disagree. Act 15- is hardly as all encompassing as OIHID. And even if it were applied to the majority of the character's points, the constant rolling of every attack, defense, movement, and utility power phase after phase after phase will result in a decent number of failures. When you make 3-4 rolls per phase, it adds up.

 

 

Masses of Physical Lims are stupid. One or two is a nice hook.

 

And your argument here is a complete nullity. If people are going to go over 150 ANYWAY, why does OIHID need to be a 50pt disadvantage? The only time that will be relevant is when they _don't_ go over, and in those cases, the PC will be more boring.

 

 

It's pretty arrogant of you to flat out state that the PC is going to be more boring with fewer Disads. It should be up to the individual player to decide that for himself.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

You obviously don't know ASL very well if you think that it's "clearly quantifiable and predictable".

I said "clearly and quantifiable numbers." I've never played ASL, but I've played the original Squad Leader and other wargames since 1975. Knowing that an 88L gun has an x% of penetrating a certain armor or that only certain guns have any chance (and a highly predictable one at that) of penetrating the frontal armor of a Jagdtiger provides a certain security blanket. It's not nearly entirely random like most roleplaying. Sure, a series of low probability events can occur in sequence giving very unlikely results, but those results are not actually random.

 

IMO you approach role playing very much like a wargame. You want to be able to create "perfect" characters or powersets that provide a guaranteed result for any given situation. You play and calculate the numbers all the time, which is clear from your numerous commentaries on characters here on the forum. I think it's this very obscession with predictability which is making OIHID so hard for you to swallow. The fact that it's no more abusive in reality than IIF or "Not in Intense Magnetic Field" seems irrelevant to you.

 

Number crunching has its place, but we do mutual storytelling here too. How we give weight to these two aspects of our hobby determines our gaming philosophy.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

There are degrees of course. I have no problem with a magic sword or ring because presumably it's a relatively small percentage of a character's points.

 

I dislike disads that affect the vast majority of a character's points. The ones where the character is terrifyingly powerful 95% of the time but helpless 5% of the time.

 

Fair enough. I've seen more than one Green Lantern wanabe over the years who tried to put everything into the ring (or Doc Fate into the Helmet, or Wonder Woman into the gear), and I've never much liked power armor types for similar reasons. I still prefer the "make the limit count" approach to creating a new class of disad though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oihid

 

Limitations v. disadvantages.

 

Limitations can grant a larger number of active points to play with and the 'points benefit' varies depending on the size of the power. The limtation will be directly relevant to the power.

 

Disadvantages usually effect the character as a whole and all of the powers equally. They do not change the active points you can play with (assuming that everyone will take the recommended points value of disadvantages in a given campaign) and the 'points value' is independent of the cost of individual powers.

 

It has been suggested that you could buy limitations as disadvantages. I suppose you could buy disadvantages as limitations: DNPC (bought as 11- activation roll - half the time you don't get to use your powers as you have to go shopping with your wife/fix up the attic/mow the lawn. See 'The Incredibles') +1 limitation on all powers.

 

Having said that, I do not think we ought to change the way we buy limitations or disadvantages. Superman is not built with thousands of points of disadvantages, he is bought with thousands of points of GM's bonus.

 

Gary mentioned that HIDIHO and Multiform may be used interchangably, which is a very valid point. Go for it. The multiform will probably be cheaper than buying all the powers with the limitation. I tend to see the difference as this: HIDO doesn't change the 'base character' - the disadvantages, knowledges and skills, it adds to them. Multiform does change the character completely, and there has to be no relationship between the two forms at all. If you want to be something completely different, use multiform. If you want to be you+, use HIDO.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Gary mentioned that HIDIHO and Multiform may be used interchangably' date=' which is a very valid point. Go for it. The multiform will probably be cheaper than buying all the powers with the limitation. I tend to see the difference as this: HIDO doesn't change the 'base character' - the disadvantages, knowledges and skills, it adds to them. Multiform does change the character completely, and there has to be no relationship between the two forms at all. If you want to be something completely different, use multiform. If you want to be you+, use HIDO.[/quote']

 

Did he? I didn't catch that. They can both be used, and I've approved characters with both. In my experience, Multiform can be much more unbalancing to a game than OIHID unless the GM keeps very strict control over it. I recently saw a player that wanted to play a Multiform character with a VPP in one form and mutipowers in the others, and limits on the powers in every form. Legal, but insanely overpowered for the campaign.