Oihid

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

Sigh. Obviously you didn't read the FAQ when I posted the first time. Please pay more attention next time.

 

Q: What effect does Extra Time have on a character’s ability to Abort to a power?

 

A: As a default rule, a character can Abort to a power that takes a Full Phase, Delayed Phase, or Extra Segment as normal. He can Abort to a power that takes an Extra Phase, but if so he loses his next two Phases. He cannot Abort to powers that take more Extra Time. The GM can, of course, change this in the interest of common sense, dramatic sense, game balance, or the like.

 

The fact that you have to house rule this away says that even you think OIHID is unbalancing in its current incarnation.

 

You're very selective in what you quote. Yes, you can abort IF your OIHID takes only the bare minimum time required for the limitation, not the "commonly takes much longer" version. To me, that means if you can change in a full phase, there must be some other pretty common ways to prevent the change. If the change requires nothing but extra time, perhaps it should be more than a full phase.

 

On the other hand, I could take all my powers "Full phase to activate" for -1/4. A character activating an "extra time" power can, by the rules, do other things, so he could also be activating other "full phase to activate" powers. This seems LESS limiting than OIHID, yet is still -1/4. And he can still abort to activate his defensive powers.

 

Your concern seems far more directed at "The GM isn't enforcing the drawbacks" than "the OIHID is unbalanced". If a player wants the OAF limitation, then tries to argue he can summon back a fully-repaired OAF by exerting his Instant Change, he's not getting a -1 limitation.

 

If he wants -1/4 for OIHID, but wants it structured so it has no game effect, he's not getting the limitation. That might include taking high Danger Sense outside his OIHID so he can abort to the full phase action against surprise attacks.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Your concern seems far more directed at "The GM isn't enforcing the drawbacks" than "the OIHID is unbalanced". If a player wants the OAF limitation, then tries to argue he can summon back a fully-repaired OAF by exerting his Instant Change, he's not getting a -1 limitation.

 

If he wants -1/4 for OIHID, but wants it structured so it has no game effect, he's not getting the limitation. That might include taking high Danger Sense outside his OIHID so he can abort to the full phase action against surprise attacks.

 

The twin meta-rules of "If it's not limiting the character, it's not worth points" and "The GM need not allow X if it conflicts with common or dramatic sense" would make many of these threads much shorter.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

Gary has actually raised one valid point in this thread: Having too much of a character's powers with an overall Limitation (such as OAF' date=' Not In Intense Magnetic Fields, Only at Night, OIHID, etc.) is indeed a bad idea. Not only does it make the character potentially unbalanced [i']vis-à-vis[/i] his teammates, but on those occasions where his Limitation kicks in he's totally helpless and/or useless. A 350 point PC with OIHID on everything is worth 437 points; but a 350 point character with OIF on everything is worth 525 points. But that's an argument only against putting all of one's eggs in one basket and for maintaining game balance, not against OIHID in and of itself.

 

Some gamers actually like this approach. Your character can be more powerful than his comrades, but at the cost of having an Achilles' heel which basically cripples him when it's utilized. On a micro sense, I know some players will do this to powers they feel may privide unbalancing. "Well, my 12d6 Telepathy fails in periods of unusual sunspot activity" really means "If you want to run a mysetery plotline, tell me there is unusual sunspot activity."

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

Some gamers actually like this approach. Your character can be more powerful than his comrades' date=' but at the cost of having an Achilles' heel which basically cripples him when it's utilized. On a micro sense, I know some players will do this to powers they feel may privide unbalancing. "Well, my 12d6 Telepathy fails in periods of unusual sunspot activity" really means "If you want to run a mystery plotline, tell me there is unusual sunspot activity."[/quote']That's a good point. But then, that line of thinking can be applied to OIHID or any other overarching Limitation as well. I've as much told my GMs that my character Zl'f can't attain her OIHID powers if she's drugged or ill. But then, she's pretty competent without the OIHID anyway. Even without her OIHID powers she's still a DEX 23, SPD 4 MA with 10 martial maneuvers, Combat Luck, Acrobatics 18-, Breakfall 14-, and numerous Skills as well as two Overall Levels.

 

To me that just means that while it may be rational (and occasionally exciting) to function without one's superpowers, the character should never be completely useless without those powers. Tony Stark may need Iron Man's armor to kick butt, but that certainly doesn't mean he's useless out of his armor. It's amazing what a good Inventor can do with SS: Electronics 20-, a screwdriver and wirecutters to a tech-based villain.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

The sheer number of rolls bogging down the game. Apparently, you have no problem whatsoever with someone rolling every single phase for a movement power.

[/Quote]

 

Why would I? It's a valid idea.

 

1) Any character with enough dice or creativity are quite capable of being effective. If they're all based on the same number of points, at least they are all on a level playing field.

 

2) In your opinion.

 

3) Drains and suppresses are a lot more common than getting whacked in your normal ID. And usually you don't have this limitation on your stats.

 

1) If the limitations of Mental Powers aren't played up, thus rendering the Mentalist PC almost completely useless... they will be far more effective than a 'normal' character build. It's often a 100 vs 500 pt character effectivity...

(value of PC-powers vs value of PC+Value of Villain made his bitch...)

 

2) Marvellous BS there...

 

3) Drains and Suppresses, IME, _never_ come up. And I've seen the -1/4 lim on stats. How many GM's actually use drains... and how many don't bother because of the extra bookkeeping...?

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

Heck, if we don't beat this to death over 14+ pages, what else would we?

 

Yeah, I think it's true any +1/4 (or worse) lim applied to an entire character can be/often is unbalancing. I tend to allow a greater leeway in these things plus I like some of the Golden Age heroes who were this way (ridiculous lims such as Hourman's or even the siller Silver Era Superman krypto-anything-does-me-in-and-it's-easier-to-find-than-bugs), but that doesn't make it less dangerous. The character I mentioned above does have a bunch of skills and a few basic abilities, but some GMs would probably insist on the lim applied less. Depends on the game and group and personal preference (and some experience and/or inventiveness to help round things out).

 

It's hard to ask Gary to provide examples of something balanced in that one could pick any innocuous thing. It would be interesting though (addressed to Gary) if there's any contentious/debated issues regarding balance that we've seen where you are not so concerned with the issue as some, or if, Gary, you're a believer that each mathematically-unbalanced (if I may use that term) balance issue is ultimately best addressed with a rework as opposed to the book's (occasional) expressed warning signs, stop signs, and GM fiat invocations? Even in the latter case, I would not impugn your beliefs, even though I think it's a Quixotic fight.

 

But I can respect that, even admire it. I think many of us attracted to HERO are so attracted out of a belief that a perfect or nearly-perfect system is possible. I'm not sure why it should raise ire. I think many of us are posting towards the same end as Gary, just few of us in the same direction as he.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

But I can respect that' date=' even admire it. I think many of us attracted to HERO are so attracted out of a belief that a perfect or nearly-perfect system is possible. I'm not sure why it should raise ire. I think many of us are posting towards the same end as Gary, just few of us in the same direction as he.[/quote']I'd sympathise with that viewpoint a lot more if I didn't honestly think Gary is much less interested in making his case than he is in winning the argument at any cost.

 

That's just my own opinion, of course.

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

I'd sympathise with that viewpoint a lot more if I didn't honestly think Gary is much less interested in making his case than he is in winning the argument at any cost.

 

That's just my own opinion, of course.

In some ways I agree but in other ways I disagree - a common hallmark among many posters is their "never say die, I must be proven right" attitude, and I'd say that's not unique to Gary. Just to be upfront, I think you fall into that on some frequent occassion and I do on a less frequent but nonetheless occasional basis. As respective heels dig in, it just gets uglier. So it's a two-way street, I posit.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

Hi everyone,

 

This post is regarding the recent posts about active point limits for using limitations like OIHID. I recently posted a character on this thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=518116#post518116

 

post 41 has a version with 290 points via OIHID and 60 in normal form.

post 27 has one with 250 points via OIHID and 100 in normal form.

 

The major change made is that the 250 OIHID version does not start out with a dedicated MegaScale flight slot. Otherwise, the combat capabilities of the OIHID forms are virtually identical and only the normal form's combat capabilites were improved.

 

I welcome input from a GM's perspective on which of these versions you would prefer as well as any other coments or suggestions.

 

Thanks,

 

HM

[zornwil]

Re: Oihid

 

I don't have a preference if the only difference is the Megascale Flight. Do I need to look beyond that?

 

Is the DF really worth anything in your world? To me Hyper-man wouldn't really be that distinctive among a world of supers, although it's probably worth a "quirk" for "looks like TV 'children's' show hero"

 

I feel like he needs more of a weakness. Can someone force him to be the kid form, even if with difficulty? Is he vulnerable to anything? How quick is the Hero change?

 

I feel like I should know this having seen the character - it's a cool character btw.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Oihid

 

The major change made is that the 250 OIHID version does not start out with a dedicated MegaScale flight slot. Otherwise' date=' the combat capabilities of the OIHID forms are virtually identical and only the [u']normal form's[/u] combat capabilites were improved.

 

I welcome input from a GM's perspective on which of these versions you would prefer as well as any other coments or suggestions.

In general, as a GM I would prefer a version with a more capable normal ID. Skills often provide unforseen avenues to more interesting solutions to problems than simply pummeling it until something breaks. As an example of what I mean, I once allowed our team's brick, Silhouette, to use her Lightning Calculator (She's a Nobel-winning physicist) to calculate how far she had to deflect a giant mech's upper arm in order to make it's arm-mounted weapon hit itself. It was too clever a trick not to let work, and the mech blew it's other arm off.

 

If as you say the two versions are virtually identical combat-wise, then by all means take the out of combat more capable option. I don't think you'll regret it, especially if for some reason the hero can't change into his Hero ID.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

First, as others pointed out, Steve Long ruled that it's something that has to be ruled on as a case-by-case basis taking into account special effects, balance abuses and the such. So, it's not just a hard & fast rule that you automatically can Abort to actions that take more than 0 phases.

 

If a character is built w/ a 1 phase OIHID on his defenses & also has a Speed higher than the campaign average (allowing a relatively quick recovery of the Abort), that should be a warning sign to the GM. If the Speed is equal to or lower than the campaign average or the OIHID takes ore than 1 phase, that Abort is going to be a lot bigger pain.

 

As with many power/advantage/limitation combinations, GM interaction is required. That's hardly unusual or undesired in a system as flexible as Hero.

 

Second, you've not addressed the fact that OIHID has a requirement for there being a way to prevent the change in the first place. This, combined with the character's lack of perfect awareness of all situations, will make Aborting a non-possibility in some cases.

 

So long as the GM is enforcing the rules of OIHID, it will be limiting. The character will occationally have to burn one or more actions to abort to their powers (and only if defensive) and can do absolutely nothing else during that time (no movement, defensive manuevers, etc). In addition, there will be times that the character cannot even abort due to physical inability (he had to place his magic cane in the overhead luggage compartment), simply not being aware of what's going on (failing the Perception Roll to see the hijackers boarding the plane where there's plenty of hostages) and/or role-playing considerations (you can't call down the lightning because you're sitting inside a crowded airplain).

 

Sounds to me like the OIHID character's life can get pretty complicated on occation and those points savings aren't coming free. In fact, in every game I've seen involving OIHID characters in which the GM actually did enforce character's lims, those savings did get "paid" for just as often as anyone else's -1/4 lims.

 

 

1) The default rules say that OIHID can take 1 phase to change

 

2) The default rules say that you can abort to any action that takes 2 phases or less to activate

 

3) Therefore the default rules state that at least some OIHID can be aborted to.

 

You can of course house rule that no OIHID can be aborted to, but that's acknowledging that the default rules have a problem.

 

Let's take a comic example that Hugh posted earlier. In comics, Collossus can and clearly has aborted to his armored form. His "difficulty to change" basically boils down to the fact that he's a liability when Magneto is in the scene.

 

So unless Magento is around, the only way to utilize his OIHID against him is to ambush him in his normal form before he can react. And it's not common practice for a GM to knock out or kill a character before the character has an action. Just like no GM generally has a sniper with loads of range penalty levels shoot a PC in the head with a 4d6 RKA while he's patrolling after Finding Weakness a few times...

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

But OAF Man and EffortMan are effectively built on 400 points. How is this fair if OIHID Man is based on 350? It seems about as fair as allowing OIHID Man to be based on 400 points when the characters with no limitations are based on 350.

 

I don't agree with your contention regarding OIHID, but even if I did, I would still expect it to be applied consistently.

 

Either it's unfair that limitations allow characters built with more than the "campaign base" [your argument early on] or it isn't.

 

 

They are not truly 400 pt characters. 150 pts of powers with 2X End cost isn't really 150 pts. It costs 30 End per phase to maintain, so the character can't last long in combat. Probably no more than 2 phases. Someone with 250 pts of power with OIHID is just as powerful in combat as someone with 300 pts of power bought straight.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Oihid

 

I don't have a preference if the only difference is the Megascale Flight. Do I need to look beyond that?

 

Is the DF really worth anything in your world? To me Hyper-man wouldn't really be that distinctive among a world of supers, although it's probably worth a "quirk" for "looks like TV 'children's' show hero"

 

I feel like he needs more of a weakness. Can someone force him to be the kid form, even if with difficulty? Is he vulnerable to anything? How quick is the Hero change?

 

I feel like I should know this having seen the character - it's a cool character btw.

Here you go Zorn...

 

 

1. Not really, the 100 point normal also has Combat Luck (Armor 3PD/3ED) WITHOUT increasing the OIHID forms total defenses by more than a point or two. The over-simplified description of the character is that he is a non-magical take on Captain Marvel/Shazam!. The Distinctive Features is basically there to prevent him from easily using the otherwise more powerful form to solve normal-id type of problems. Example: I remember an issue of Shazam! where Billy Batson transforms into Captain Marvel and dresses in normal clothes just so he can cash a check in a bank as an adult. Hyper-Man the character would not be able to do this since the form itself is sort of a wish fullfillment in some ways. I have been working on a more detailed origin that explains this but just haven't finalized it yet.
   
2. I had originally gave him the disadvantage of accidental Change and someone pointed out that this really was not a disadvantage worth any points since Mind Control/Hypnosis would work on him now just as easily. Captain Marvel really does not have any true combat weaknesses like magic or kryptonite that I am aware of so any ideas besides taking extra damage from gravity based powers would be welcome.
   
3. The way I understand the timing issues for OIHID, it would take him 2 full phases to change. With a 2 speed this means it would not occur until phase 6* or 12 but the non-MegaScale Flight version with Combat Luck also has a 3 speed so it could be finished by phase 4* or 8. ( * assuming it was began on phase 0 which is very unlikely if he wants to preserve his Secret ID in a public place! ). Even if this was Aborted to on phase 1 (which is legal based on rulings by Steve since the character has defenses as part of the transformation) after hiding on phase 0 the full transformation would not COMPLETE until phase 8/12 (SPD 2/3).
   
4. That's ok, I didn't know for sure until looking it up. I'll probably add the details to the write-up soon. Thanks.
   

I actually prefer the 290/60 OIHID/normal build better because the kid never really considered being a crimefighter since he knew his physical attributes were not extraordinary and the lower base stats goes along with that idea. the 250/100 OIHID/normal kid has as good or better stats (15 STR, 14 DEX, 3 SPD, Combat Luck, etc..) than many published agents which, although cool from a player perspective, doesn't make sense to me based on the characters origin.

 

I look at this character build as an actual first time hero from the 1st game session unlike many builds. It is the reason that I removed the previous Reputation: Impulsive Hero disadvantage I had originally included. This is not to say that I don't fully intend to roleplay such a disadvantage regardless. (If and when I get the opportunity to play/GM in a new Champions game.) I would look forward to the experience process for this character. As Treb pointed out in his last post the more competent normal would be fun but I don't see the look at the total build as being faithful to a common theme.

 

Regards,

 

HM

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

BTW, I think you mentioned you're playing in a game now (somewhere in the past 14 pages). Congrats - last time I asked, you said you weren't in a game, unfortunately, so I'm glad you found one.

 

 

Yep, found one.

 

This is an almost anything goes type campaign. I have a stable of characters ranging from 500 to 1800 pts, although only the 500-700 pt characters are actually played in the regular game. The higher point characters adventure only in solo play or short stories.

 

The character are built mostly straight with large numbers of noncombat skills. So they're not quite as powerful as their points would indicate.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

You're very selective in what you quote. Yes' date=' you can abort IF your OIHID takes only the bare minimum time required for the limitation, not the "commonly takes much longer" version. To me, that means if you can change in a full phase, there must be some other pretty common ways to prevent the change. If the change requires nothing but extra time, perhaps it should be more than a full phase.[/quote']

 

 

What's the common way of preventing Collossus?

 

 

On the other hand, I could take all my powers "Full phase to activate" for -1/4. A character activating an "extra time" power can, by the rules, do other things, so he could also be activating other "full phase to activate" powers. This seems LESS limiting than OIHID, yet is still -1/4. And he can still abort to activate his defensive powers.

 

This wouldn't be a limitation for persistent powers. And it wouldn't be a limit for stats. And you can only activate one power at a time with this limitation, so you can't activate your attack, defense, and movement at the same time whereas you can activate everything at the same time with OIHID. Also if you're Stunned or Knocked Out, it takes you another full phase to activate everything again while an OIHID who's Stunned is no more vulnerable than a regular character.

 

 

Your concern seems far more directed at "The GM isn't enforcing the drawbacks" than "the OIHID is unbalanced". If a player wants the OAF limitation, then tries to argue he can summon back a fully-repaired OAF by exerting his Instant Change, he's not getting a -1 limitation.

 

If he wants -1/4 for OIHID, but wants it structured so it has no game effect, he's not getting the limitation. That might include taking high Danger Sense outside his OIHID so he can abort to the full phase action against surprise attacks.

 

That's the stock answer to everything.

 

I don't consider the surprise attack to be an especially compelling argument against OIHID since a surprise attack that can knock out the character can occur anyway regardless of whether you have powers or not. In general, most GM's never set up a situation where a character gets KO'd without a chance to do something. And in the situation where that occurs, it's to advance the plot in which case the GM could set it up anyway if he wanted to.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Why would I? It's a valid idea.

 

 

Rolling every phase for movements. Like that won't bog down the game.

 

 

1) If the limitations of Mental Powers aren't played up, thus rendering the Mentalist PC almost completely useless... they will be far more effective than a 'normal' character build. It's often a 100 vs 500 pt character effectivity...

(value of PC-powers vs value of PC+Value of Villain made his bitch...)

 

2) Marvellous BS there...

 

3) Drains and Suppresses, IME, _never_ come up. And I've seen the -1/4 lim on stats. How many GM's actually use drains... and how many don't bother because of the extra bookkeeping...?

 

 

1) IME, the only truly unbalancing mentallist is the sniper mentallist who attacks from far away with some sort of mind scan or enhanced senses or invisibility/darkness. The ones who have to be on the battlefield and subject to enemy attacks aren't especially unbalancing.

 

To make the villain your bitch requires +30 and a failed Ego roll from the villain. Easier said than done...

 

2) Likewise

 

3) Your campaign is very different from the ones I've been in then. Drains and suppresses occur a fair amount because they're very effective.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

Rolling every phase for movements. Like that won't bog down the game.

 

Not at all in a PBeM/PBB, only slightly FtF unless you have a 'slow' player. Try it. An extra roll or two per phase, on 2d6, vs a set difficulty that requires no bookkeeping, is not much of a waster of time.

 

How is "bogs the game down" a reason for Activation Guy _not_ being efficient, anyqay? So he's annoying. So what?

 

 

1) IME, the only truly unbalancing mentallist is the sniper mentallist who attacks from far away with some sort of mind scan or enhanced senses or invisibility/darkness. The ones who have to be on the battlefield and subject to enemy attacks aren't especially unbalancing.

 

To make the villain your bitch requires +30 and a failed Ego roll from the villain. Easier said than done...

 

2) Likewise

 

3) Your campaign is very different from the ones I've been in then. Drains and suppresses occur a fair amount because they're very effective.

 

1) Subtlety... or just a lot of dice... and you can get a huge swing.

3) How many 'characters posted to the boards' have many drains/power def attacks. And since it's quite cheap to patch up that hole in your defenses, thereby eliminating any weakness, it gets worse...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Oihid

 

What's the common way of preventing Collossus?

 

Collossus, last version, was never limited beyond how a mutant who did not have the on/off option... so, in game terms, he bought off OIHID _and_ bought down his disadvantages relating to shifting forms.

 

Anyone who says 'it only takes a phase to shift, and there's nothing that can stop it' about their OIHID is chosing to take a limitation that is not a limitation at all... of course, by the book, that's not a -1/4 lim.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Not at all in a PBeM/PBB, only slightly FtF unless you have a 'slow' player. Try it. An extra roll or two per phase, on 2d6, vs a set difficulty that requires no bookkeeping, is not much of a waster of time.

 

How is "bogs the game down" a reason for Activation Guy _not_ being efficient, anyqay? So he's annoying. So what?

 

 

When he's flying in the city at noncombat speeds for 3 turns, that's 18 rolls. A failed roll could easily mean careening into a building. And 18 extra rolls bogs down the game.

 

 

 

1) Subtlety... or just a lot of dice... and you can get a huge swing.

3) How many 'characters posted to the boards' have many drains/power def attacks. And since it's quite cheap to patch up that hole in your defenses, thereby eliminating any weakness, it gets worse...

 

 

1) That's true of most powers, not just mental ones. Subtle uses of TK for example, could wreak havoc. And lots of dice on almost anything can wipe out any opponent.

 

2) Look it up. Lots of characters have drains of some sort in a multipower or have access to them in a pool.

 

If you use the -1/4 "drain one drain all" limitation, then buying large amounts of power defense means that you don't get to take the limitation.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

Collossus, last version, was never limited beyond how a mutant who did not have the on/off option... so, in game terms, he bought off OIHID _and_ bought down his disadvantages relating to shifting forms.

 

Anyone who says 'it only takes a phase to shift, and there's nothing that can stop it' about their OIHID is chosing to take a limitation that is not a limitation at all... of course, by the book, that's not a -1/4 lim.

 

 

It is a limitation. Just not one worth -1/4 IMO. Also, Collossus does have something to stop the change. His name is Magneto.

[JmOz]

Re: Oihid

 

Funny I still play the 4th edition way, Where the limitation is that at times you don't have your powers so it is a pain to be attacked in Civ ID because you can't use your powers when no one is looking...go figure...

 

It's up to the GM, those points saved come from being limited, it is his job to make sure they are limiting. If it takes a phase to transform or an hour I know I can make you pay for it, so I am not worried. But if you need extra hooks to make your job as GM possible, by all means do it, your game. I am just not going to turn down a nice build based on having to work a little harder as a GM.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Oihid

 

What's the common way of preventing Collossus?

 

There is none. I also don't see him needing a full phase - he seems to change as a zero phase. Even in his first appearance, he shifts as he runs towards the tractor. However, I don't see him as OIHID. He has a lot of powers Linked to his armor, as previously postulated.

 

This wouldn't be a limitation for persistent powers. And it wouldn't be a limit for stats. And you can only activate one power at a time with this limitation' date=' so you can't activate your attack, defense, and movement at the same time whereas you can activate everything at the same time with OIHID. Also if you're Stunned or Knocked Out, it takes you another full phase to activate everything again while an OIHID who's Stunned is no more vulnerable than a regular character.[/quote']

 

On p 187 of FRED, it actually notes the halved limitation "applies to Constant or Persistent powers which only require extra time to activate". Why would you conclude it is not a limitation for persistent powers (and stats are persistent, and become a power when advantages or limitations are applied to them).

 

Nothing prevents other powers being activated at the same time - FREd 186 tells us other actions can be takjen at the same time, or an extra -1/4 limitation is applied. Nowhere does it state the other actions cannot include activating other powes which require extra time.

 

Stunned or KO'd - yep, nonpersistent powers go down. Stats and persistent powers don't. Makes no difference whether they took extra time to activate.

 

I don't consider the surprise attack to be an especially compelling argument against OIHID since a surprise attack that can knock out the character can occur anyway regardless of whether you have powers or not. In general' date=' most GM's never set up a situation where a character gets KO'd without a chance to do something. And in the situation where that occurs, it's to advance the plot in which case the GM could set it up anyway if he wanted to.[/quote']

 

In general, such GM's have explicitly chosen not to exploit a key limit imposed by OIHID.

 

Gary, you seem focused on 1 phase OIHID with no other restrictions. The phrasing on p 197, commencing with "In order for this Limitation to be valid, the character must have some difficulty changing forms" does not imply such a structure must be permitted. The two examples given are of a character requiring considerably more than a full phase, and one whose switch can be blocked by his being gagged (ie other requirements to switch).

 

But yes, if a GM won't bother enforcing a limitation, it won't be very limiting. If your hunteds never show up, it's not very disadvantageous either. But that's a GM issue, not a rules issue, as many others have already pointed out over the last 15 pages.

[Gary]

Re: Oihid

 

There is none. I also don't see him needing a full phase - he seems to change as a zero phase. Even in his first appearance, he shifts as he runs towards the tractor. However, I don't see him as OIHID. He has a lot of powers Linked to his armor, as previously postulated.

 

 

Yet many incarnations of him seem to have OIHID.

 

 

On p 187 of FRED, it actually notes the halved limitation "applies to Constant or Persistent powers which only require extra time to activate". Why would you conclude it is not a limitation for persistent powers (and stats are persistent, and become a power when advantages or limitations are applied to them).

 

Hmm, so it does. I've been playing it wrong forever. However, I personally wouldn't consider it a valid limitation for persistent powers. Otherwise I'd always take 1 turn or 1 minute extra time to put on Powered Armor and I'd do so at the beginning of each day. Or I'd have some mystic ritual that I would do once in my lifetime and never do again unless the persistent powers were dispelled for whatever reason.

 

 

Nothing prevents other powers being activated at the same time - FREd 186 tells us other actions can be takjen at the same time, or an extra -1/4 limitation is applied. Nowhere does it state the other actions cannot include activating other powes which require extra time.

 

Stunned or KO'd - yep, nonpersistent powers go down. Stats and persistent powers don't. Makes no difference whether they took extra time to activate.

 

He can take any other action that requires 0 phase or no time. Otherwise a Full Phase action + 1/2 Phase normal action means 1.5 phases used up which is too many. Or Full Phase action + Full Phase action = 2 Phases which is illegal.

 

 

In general, such GM's have explicitly chosen not to exploit a key limit imposed by OIHID.

 

Do you often KO a PC without allowing the PC an action? IME, this is almost never done and when it is, it's usually to advance the plot. Nobody just says to the player, "Sorry Bub, but Meat Ripper just hit you with his chainsaw while you weren't looking".

 

 

Gary, you seem focused on 1 phase OIHID with no other restrictions. The phrasing on p 197, commencing with "In order for this Limitation to be valid, the character must have some difficulty changing forms" does not imply such a structure must be permitted. The two examples given are of a character requiring considerably more than a full phase, and one whose switch can be blocked by his being gagged (ie other requirements to switch).

 

But yes, if a GM won't bother enforcing a limitation, it won't be very limiting. If your hunteds never show up, it's not very disadvantageous either. But that's a GM issue, not a rules issue, as many others have already pointed out over the last 15 pages.

 

 

Of course you can say that about anything. If 12 charges was listed in the book as a -2 limitation, you can argue that it's the GM's job to make sure that 12 charges is worth -2 by always throwing out hundreds of agents and having huge multipart adventures. If the GM isn't making it worth -2, it's his own fault according to this theory.

 

Sometimes the limitations in the book just aren't worth their value. Cannot Push is worth a -1/4 limitation, yet nobody really thinks it's worth that much. 10d6 EB Cannot Push costs 40 pts and costs 5 End for max damage. 8d6 EB costs the same 40, and maxes out at 10d6 at the cost of 14 End.

[OddHat]

Re: Oihid

 

Sometimes the limitations in the book just aren't worth their value.

 

Especially when the GM refuses to enforce them.