Creating the power H to H Reflection

[Guest The JeRQ]

I have a teleport specialist who creates Local Gates that he uses for missile reflection. I would like to create a power that would simulate the effect of reflecting a hand to hand attack as well (effectively setting up a gate to intercept a punch who's terminating point would be inches from the attackers face)

[Guest The JeRQ]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

Additionally I am looking for any other cool new teleport power suggestions you may have to offer

[CraterMaker]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

Boy, that's a tough one..

 

Okay, I'll give a shot. How about a cosmic mimic pool, where all mimic'd hand attacks are bought as damage shields.. And link the whole thing to your block,

 

 

So, person attacks, you block (which, coincidentally, has the same mechanics as missile reflection), your mimic pool automatically dishes out the same damage - whether it's a martial art manuever or fiery fists of flaming foo. err

 

55 point vpp (allows powers up to 20 ap with the additional advantages Continious (+!) and Damage Shield (+3/4)) 55 real and active points

28 point control cost, Cosmic (+2), Requires successful block (-1/2), VPP mimics targets melee attack (-1/2), power is only as powerful as targets powers (-1/2) 84 real points , 34 active

 

Bleagh. Still really clunky- theoretically it would only kick in on the second attack, and weak for non MA attacks.

 

Or if you've gamed with your gm for awhile, just buy it exactly like missile reflection and call it melee reflection. It's not abusive, IMO, so it's not a problem. Maby buy it on a requires a Power Skill roll..

 

-CraterMaker

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

We've had some substantial discussions on how to do HTH Reflection here on the boards before. Here is one of the most involved threads on the subject.

 

People who seek rules-legal ways to do this have come up with some elaborate constructs, since there's no simple by-the-book way to handle it: VPPs mimicking the effects of the attack, Damage Shields, even Stretching and Naked Advantages UAA.

 

IIRC there's a martial arts maneuver in The Ultimate Martial Artist called Redirect which allows you to follow a successful Block of a HTH attack with diverting it back at the attacker or another person standing adjoining you. That's supposed to be taken as part of a Martial Art package, of course.

 

After thinking about this, I've come to the conclusion that since all characters essentially have "Melee Deflection" for free (i.e. the Block Maneuver, which does everything against HTH attacks that Missile Deflection does against Ranged), the simplest and fairest way to do this would be to buy Reflection as per the Adder for Missile Reflection, as a Naked Adder for the Block Maneuver. That's 20 or 30 additional points, which to me seems more than reasonable for this ability, especially since it would only allow Reflection to targets that are adjacent to you.

 

YMMV, of course.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

Forgive me for not reading all of the other thread. How about buying Missle Reflection, but with the same -1/2 Hand-to-Hand attack limitation that is mandatory on HTH Attacks?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

Forgive me for not reading all of the other thread. How about buying Missle Reflection' date=' but with the same -1/2 [i']Hand-to-Hand attack[/i] limitation that is mandatory on HTH Attacks?

 

Now that's one I've never heard before, and it's pretty darn elegant! Nice system consistency, too.

[levi]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

Greatwyrm is a genius!

 

Melee Redirection Portals: Missile Deflection (Any Melee Attack), Missile Reflection, Reflect At Any Adjacent Target (50 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Hand to Hand Attacks (-1/2) Cost: 33 pts.

[levi]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

Additionally I am looking for any other cool new teleport power suggestions you may have to offer

 

This one was new to me when my group's Teleporter came up with it...

 

He uses his Aportation (Teleport Useable as an Attack) in concert with his Martial Arts for a Multiple Power Attack. Ports a target over to him (facing away for surprise) as he connects with a roundhouse kick to the back of the head. Great for cutting that enemy speedsters DCV in half.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

The UNTIL Superpowers Database is a huge volume of prebuilt Powers, a great source of ideas and a tremendous time-saver during character creation, or when running characters with VPPs. It has a wide selection of teleport powers, and is just generally well worth picking up.

 

There's also an Online USPD to which fans can contribute. The section on Teleportation Powers has some clever and innovative stuff.

[Lightray]

How about buying Missle Reflection' date=' but with the same -1/2 [i']Hand-to-Hand attack[/i] limitation that is mandatory on HTH Attacks?

Unfortunately, that -1/2 Limitation is in there because you're not getting a benefit you could otherwise get at the same price -- either from STR -1/2 only to cause damage, or Energy Blast -1/2 no range.

 

With Missile Reflection, you'd be adding a Limitation and getting something you ordinarily would not be able to do -- Deflect/Reflect H-to-H attacks. Missile Deflection is explicitly vs. ranged attacks; you'd need an Advantage to expand it's applicability.

 

IIRC there's a martial arts maneuver in The Ultimate Martial Artist called Redirect which allows you to follow a successful Block of a HTH attack with diverting it back at the attacker or another person standing adjoining you. That's supposed to be taken as part of a Martial Art package' date=' of course.[/quote']

My first thought was to use the point value cost basis of Redirect (as detailed under the "Power Advantages for Martial Arts" section) to base a custom power on.

 

But Redirect isn't listed there. And it's not in the Index. And its not on the table listing the martial arts maneuvers.

 

So maybe Redirect was dropped between 4th and 5th editions?

[Vorsch]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

Greatwyrm is a genius!

 

Melee Redirection Portals: Missile Deflection (Any Melee Attack), Missile Reflection, Reflect At Any Adjacent Target (50 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Hand to Hand Attacks (-1/2) Cost: 33 pts.

 

I beg to differ, its stupid. (appoligies)

 

A limited power being able to do something a non limited power cant do. Come on get real.

[nexus]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

It does seem somewhat inconsistent to get an ability you couldn't perform before with a Limitation, not an Advantage. I think I like Lord Laiden's approach though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

It does seem somewhat inconsistent to get an ability you couldn't perform before with a Limitation' date=' not an Advantage. I think I like Lord Laiden's approach though.[/quote']

 

What about simply paying the same price as for Deflection/Reflection (with no limitations)? Same basic effect, but on HTH attacks rather than ranged attacks. Then you could also buy it at range (under the same rules applicable for Missile Deflection).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

What about simply paying the same price as for Deflection/Reflection (with no limitations)? Same basic effect' date=' but on HTH attacks rather than ranged attacks. Then you could also buy it at range (under the same rules applicable for Missile Deflection).[/quote']

 

This was always my base assumption, which was clearly not in the rules. You could buy "reflection" at regular cost... and just state it was vs. HtH attacks but not ranged. I would have never blinked at this if a player came to me with it, and in fact have a current villain who can do this. It never occured to me that it was not legal. I certainly don't see it as unbalancing... and it is simple and clean.

 

And I have to note... you can't put a limitation on a power that then allows it to do something that it couldn't do in the first place.

 

oh... wait... others have stated that before me.

[MitchellS]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

We use missile reflection, just called Reflection for HtH, to do this only without the limitation. We see no reason to give a limitation to something that is really an advantage to the character. after all, missile reflection has range modifiers that are never taken into account for Reflection.

[levi]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

I beg to differ, its stupid. (appoligies)

 

A limited power being able to do something a non limited power cant do. Come on get real.

 

 

So would you be okay with it as a -0 effect, since it is effectively exchanging one class of attacks (ranged) with another (HTH)? Like this...

 

Melee Redirection Portals: Missile Deflection (Any Melee Attack), Missile Reflection, Reflect At Any Adjacent Target (50 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Hand to Hand Attacks (-0) Cost: 50 pts.

 

After thinking about it, this power should probably cost END also, but that's up to the original player/GM to decide.

 

BTW, Vorsch I appreciate an open exchange of ideas; stupid or otherwise. Thanks for the input.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

Unfortunately, that -1/2 Limitation is in there because you're not getting a benefit you could otherwise get at the same price -- either from STR -1/2 only to cause damage, or Energy Blast -1/2 no range.

 

With Missile Reflection, you'd be adding a Limitation and getting something you ordinarily would not be able to do -- Deflect/Reflect H-to-H attacks. Missile Deflection is explicitly vs. ranged attacks; you'd need an Advantage to expand it's applicability.

 

I do understand that position, but I have to point out again that everyone already gets the ability to "deflect" Hand-to-Hand attacks for free via the Block Maneuver, which is mechanically identical to Missile Deflection working against Ranged attacks. I have to question the need or desire to pay an additional cost for "HTH Deflection."

 

As I see it the issue is defining a reasonable and appropriate mechanic and cost for granting a character the Reflection ability for HTH. Of course if you want to expand Missile Deflection to also include HTH for the same Power, that might require some kind of Advantage or Adder, or maybe buying HTH Reflection separately. I'm not sure yet which approach I would favor.

 

BTW you might consider that the HA Limitation is not exactly "EB With No Range" or "STR Only For Damage." HA changes EB from a separately damaging attack to an add-on to STR damage. And even in the case of Limiting STR, a HA with Advantages interacts with a character's own STR in a very different and distinctive way (see FREd p. 272). So there's a precedent for a Limitation that causes a Power to work differently than it does when not Limited.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

I beg to differ, its stupid. (appoligies)

 

A limited power being able to do something a non limited power cant do. Come on get real.

 

I kinda expect stuff like that over in NGD, but here?

 

Anyway, I don't think making it only in melee adds any power. I'm not suggesting using the same power for both ranged and melee attacks by adding a limitation.

 

Unfortunately' date=' that -1/2 Limitation is in there because you're not getting a benefit you could otherwise get at the same price -- either from STR -1/2 only to cause damage, or Energy Blast -1/2 no range.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure I follow. If you move Energy Blast from ranged to melee, it's worth a limitation. If you move Missile Deflection from ranged to melee, it's not? It just seems to me like it shouldn't be worth as much if it's only in melee.

 

I could see making it the same cost as Missile Deflection but with the -0 Levi mentioned. There are other things that are "only in melee" or "only at range" that cost the same amount (such as two-weapon fighting, IIRC).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

I'm not sure I follow. If you move Energy Blast from ranged to melee, it's worth a limitation. If you move Missile Deflection from ranged to melee, it's not? It just seems to me like it shouldn't be worth as much if it's only in melee.

 

And EB can already attack at range AND as a touch attack (or basically zero range). The No Range limitation takes away one option, so only Zero range is left.

 

Currently Missile Deflection can ONLY deflect Range, not HtH... so if you put a limitation on it, you can't start by adding a benefit it doesn't already have.

 

Basically, I've always gone with the ability to buy Missile Reflection as "vs. HtH" IN PLACE OF it's normal ranged attack ability. Essentially a flat clean build, but it costs. For what it can do, I think it should.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

Currently Missile Deflection can ONLY deflect Range' date=' not HtH... so if you put a limitation on it, you can't start by adding a benefit it doesn't already have.[/quote']

 

Okay, I'm with you now.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

I do understand that position, but I have to point out again that everyone already gets the ability to "deflect" Hand-to-Hand attacks for free via the Block Maneuver, which is mechanically identical to Missile Deflection working against Ranged attacks. I have to question the need or desire to pay an additional cost for "HTH Deflection."

 

As I see it the issue is defining a reasonable and appropriate mechanic and cost for granting a character the Reflection ability for HTH. Of course if you want to expand Missile Deflection to also include HTH for the same Power, that might require some kind of Advantage or Adder, or maybe buying HTH Reflection separately. I'm not sure yet which approach I would favor.

 

I like the idea of allowing HTH reflection for the same price as adding it to Missile Deflection, and with the same restructions. Missile Deflection permits you to block ranged attacks, and Block permits you to block HTH attacks. Adding Reflection to either should reasonably carry a similar cost.

 

I'd avoid making this an adder to Missile Deflection because a character should be able to reflect HTH without being able to deflect missiles (for similar reasons, I dislike "Clairsentience, see future, only to see future").

[Enforcer84]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

Levels with block and a triggered HA?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

I like the idea of allowing HTH reflection for the same price as adding it to Missile Deflection, and with the same restructions. Missile Deflection permits you to block ranged attacks, and Block permits you to block HTH attacks. Adding Reflection to either should reasonably carry a similar cost.

 

I'd avoid making this an adder to Missile Deflection because a character should be able to reflect HTH without being able to deflect missiles (for similar reasons, I dislike "Clairsentience, see future, only to see future").

 

Are there such things as "Naked Adders?" I've already got an issue with Naked Advantages... but Adders might work. Is this established anywhere?

[Lightray]

Sure, there are Naked Adders. They're "discussed" in the same place Naked Advantages are.

 

And by "discussed" I mean there is one sentence that says "These rules also apply to naked Power Adders."

 

---------------

 

I really don't see how everyone who wants to purchase Missile Deflection and simply define it as +0 Vs. Hand-to-Hand Attacks Only is going to cost that out.

 

The cost of Missile Deflection is based on the special effect of the attack you're deflecting/reflecting. In Hand-to-Hand attacks, you're not going to have "thrown objects", "arrows or projectiles", "bullets and shrapnel", or "all ranged attacks".

 

I suppose you could simply rule that they have to purchase the maximum (which becomes "all hand-to-hand attacks"). But what if they only want to reflect weapon attacks (e.g., a sword parry back on the attacker), or only want to reflect empty handed martial attacks (e.g., the aforementioned Redirect)?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Creating the power H to H Reflection

 

But, Missile Deflection is only a "Block" for Ranged attacks, is it not? Could you simply add the "Reflection" adder to "Block"?