Killing attack optioal damage

[Kal'daka]

I use the optional effects of damage rules for killing damage by using the flat 3x stun modifer it eliminates the possibility of a really low or high stun multiplier. ... I have been thinking of trying something else also if the targets resistant defenses are adequate enough to stop all the body of the attack then they take no stun either .... it just does not seem sensible that you do not take any killing damage but you take stun......

Thoughts, suggestions and/or arguments against.... for reference I GM and play a Galactic Champions based game...... with higher starting points

[Trebuchet]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

This is one of those hotly argued subjects that never seems to quite die. I've long disliked the Stun Lottery for exactly the reasons you've listed, but I've never really found a solution I like. I've discussed with my fellow GMs the following idea for our campaign: All Killing Attacks have a Stun Multiple of 1 (Unless the Multiple is bought up as an Advantage), but only Resistant defenses count versus the Stun damage. Advantages such as Armor Piercing or Penetrating work as before.

 

Example: KillMan shoots HeroLad with his 3d6 RKA, and rolls 11 for damage. HeroLad has 20 total PD but only 8 rPD, so he takes 3 BODY and 3 Stun.

 

This (at least in theory) makes Killing attacks better at what they should be: Killing. We haven't tested this out in actual combat yet, but I think it has potential.

[Max Faraday]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

This is one of those hotly argued subjects that never seems to quite die. I've long disliked the Stun Lottery for exactly the reasons you've listed' date=' but I've never really found a solution I like. I've discussed with my fellow GMs the following idea for our campaign: All Killing Attacks have a Stun Multiple of 1 (Unless the Multiple is bought up as an Advantage), but [i']only[/i] Resistant defenses count versus the Stun damage. Advantages such as Armor Piercing or Penetrating work as before.

 

Example: KillMan shoots HeroLad with his 3d6 RKA, and rolls 11 for damage. HeroLad has 20 total PD but only 8 rPD, so he takes 3 BODY and 3 Stun.

 

This (at least in theory) makes Killing attacks better at what they should be: Killing. We haven't tested this out in actual combat yet, but I think it has potential.

 

IIRC the target always take 1 STUN for each point of BODY. That means that you are basically saying that all killing attacks automatically do minimum STUN, which seems to me like it should be a limitation rather than the standard.

 

Back to the original post, it makes plenty of sense to me that someone would take STUN damage from a killing attack even if all of the killing damage was negated by resisted defenses. Consider bullet proof vests: they stop the bullet (and therefore the killing damage) but the impact still passes plenty of kinetic energy to the target and can result in significant pain and bruising (STUN damage).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

This is one of those hotly argued subjects that never seems to quite die

 

Maybe we should try a killing attack on it. Hehehehe.

 

There's a couple of recent threads running this one into the ground (again). No criticism implied as you will see if you look at the threads I'm as guilty as anyone (moreso - I started some of them).

 

I think we need a big bumper compendium of ways to deal with killing attacks from 'leave it alone' to 'scrap it from the system' and everywhere in between, where we can wallow and bemoan the choices of others. Hell, what am I saying, we ALREADY have discussion boards!

[MitchellS]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

it just does not seem sensible that you do not take any killing damage but you take stun.....

X-men 2 movie, Wolverine is shot in the head by the police officer and knocked unconscious. That is an example of taking stun but not body more than 1 body.

 

The stun lotto does not bother me at all and is much quicker than making an additional series of rolls on the hit location chart. What the stun lotto really represents is where you hit the target with the attack, just like the hit location chart. That 5x stun roll is shot to the head, as in the Wolverine case. The 1x stun roll is to the hand or other extremity. Yes you can have a 15 body 15 stun attack that will blow off the person's hand but not incapacitate the person enough to make them unconscious. That happens all the time.

[dbsousa]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

I use the optional effects of damage rules for killing damage by using the flat 3x stun modifer it eliminates the possibility of a really low or high stun multiplier. ... I have been thinking of trying something else also if the targets resistant defenses are adequate enough to stop all the body of the attack then they take no stun either .... it just does not seem sensible that you do not take any killing damage but you take stun......

Thoughts, suggestions and/or arguments against.... for reference I GM and play a Galactic Champions based game...... with higher starting points

 

Ask a guy who was shot while wearing a bulletproof vest if he was stunned. I'm guessing he will say yes.

[Old Man]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

Consider bullet proof vests: they stop the bullet (and therefore the killing damage) but the impact still passes plenty of kinetic energy to the target and can result in significant pain and bruising (STUN damage).

 

Agreed. I hear it feels like getting kicked by a mule.

 

The same could be said of mail armor and swords. There is a good chance that the sword will not cut through the armor but will still have significant impact.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

Wolverine has squidgy insides. Has anyone, ever ever ever seen Collossus (in armoured form) get stunned by a bullet?

 

No.

 

The stun lottery does some things well, but it does some things badly. I'm not keen on it, but everyone to their own.

 

All I can suggest is that if you think it is a good thing then you have no right to moan when some punk with a saturday night special takes out your superman clone with a lucky shot, and if you play characters with killing attacks, you should expect them to be used against you plenty.

 

Goose. Gander. Say hello to the sauce.

[MitchellS]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

Wolverine has squidgy insides. Has anyone' date=' ever ever ever seen Collossus (in armoured form) get stunned by a bullet?[/quote']

That's because most bullets don't do enough damage. A .38 does 1d6+1 gives a max roll is 7 body, 35 stun. Assuming Colossus had 35 pd it all bounces. When you assume average body rolls, which is what you get most of the time, even a 5 rolled for stun lotto is not going to do more than a handful of stun to him. So for all purposes anyone with a 35 hardened def or higher is immune to bullets.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

That's because most bullets don't do enough damage. A .38 does 1d6+1 gives a max roll is 7 body' date=' 35 stun. Assuming Colossus had 35 pd it all bounces. When you assume average body rolls, which is what you get most of the time, even a 5 rolled for stun lotto is not going to do more than a handful of stun to him. So for all purposes anyone with a 35 hardened def or higher is immune to bullets.[/quote']

 

 

...Saturday night special bullets, yes. And with small numbers of dice, extreme rolls are surprisingly common.

 

.44 Magnum that'll go up to 60, and for a 12 gauge you'll need 75.

 

That will stop 17d6 (.44 Magnum) to 21d6 (shotgun) normal attacks on average, and whilst I acknowledge that I am comparing average to extreme, when you are rolling around 20 dice, average is what you get all the time, and when you are rolling only 3 dice, extreme rolls come up several times in a gaming session. 21d6 is the damage you would take from a punch from someone with 105 strength, or like having a loaded freighter dropped on you. Please don't tell me that you think shotguns should be able to do ANYWHERE NEAR as much damage as having a loaded freighter dropped on you. It shouldn't do as much damage as having a sports car dropped on you. If you want to be immune to bullets you have to be immune to ridiculous levels of normal damage, or you have to buy your defences 'only vs killing attacks', and if you are having to fudge it like that then there is something wrong.

 

...but you've never seen Colossus stunned by magnum rounds or shotguns either, have you?

 

No.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

Bullets are good at killing if they penetrate. A bullet carries a lot of kinetic energy, so if it is stopped by a vest, the energy is changed from penetrating force, that would go in and mush you up, to more diffuse force (you might call it a normal attack), but it is still applied.

 

A heavyweight boxer can deliver as much kinetic energy as a bullet, and that punch would stun you to, but then you are a normal. Against supers the heavyweight boxer will hardly be noticed, and the bullet shouldn't be either.

[pinecone]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

...Saturday night special bullets, yes. And with small numbers of dice, extreme rolls are surprisingly common.

 

.44 Magnum that'll go up to 60, and for a 12 gauge you'll need 75.

 

That will stop 17d6 (.44 Magnum) to 21d6 (shotgun) normal attacks on average, and whilst I acknowledge that I am comparing average to extreme, when you are rolling around 20 dice, average is what you get all the time, and when you are rolling only 3 dice, extreme rolls come up several times in a gaming session. 21d6 is the damage you would take from a punch from someone with 105 strength, or like having a loaded freighter dropped on you. Please don't tell me that you think shotguns should be able to do ANYWHERE NEAR as much damage as having a loaded freighter dropped on you. It shouldn't do as much damage as having a sports car dropped on you. If you want to be immune to bullets you have to be immune to ridiculous levels of normal damage, or you have to buy your defences 'only vs killing attacks', and if you are having to fudge it like that then there is something wrong.

 

...but you've never seen Colossus stunned by magnum rounds or shotguns either, have you?

 

No.

But I've never seen him shot in the nards or hit in the temple or in the eye...etc...besides if you build him with medium defenses and damage reduction he become more or less unstunnable so he just makes a con roll to seem indifferant to any stun that dribbles through...tomato, tom-ah-to....

[Aroooo]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

IIRC the target always take 1 STUN for each point of BODY. That means that you are basically saying that all killing attacks automatically do minimum STUN' date=' which seems to me like it should be a limitation rather than the standard. [/quote']

 

I thought that only applies to BODY damage that actually gets through defenses.

 

Not to throw another wrench in the mix, but I wonder if there should be two 'standards;' one for heroic level and one for supers level. Playing a lot of heroic level games lately, it seems that killing damage is very effective given the lower average resistant defenses.

 

Aroooo

[Sean Waters]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

Bullets are not as good as many people seem to think.

 

Could you really shoot through an armoured wall with a shotgun?

 

No.

 

You can in Hero.

 

A lot of bullets can go through a concrete wall in one go (BODY + DEF!) in Hero. Not in 'reality'.

 

And it isn't just bullets. Could you stab a sword through a brick wall? You can in Hero!

 

Someone is going to mention 'real weapon' any time now, but if you need limitations to make it work, it shouldn't be built that way in the first place.

 

The damage something can do is a function of the amount of kinetic energy it transfers, how hard the relative materials are and a bunch of other stuff. If a bullet can not penetrate Colossus' skin - and he is organic steel right the way through, so just as hard inside as out, a bullet is not going to stun him. He doesn't just look hard. He is hard. He probably has better defences than the front of a main battle tank. Know what bullets do to the front of a main battle tank?

 

Nothing.

[KA.]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

I don't really have a problem with the way things work now.

Killing Attacks are more focused in the way they strike.

They have more of an "all or nothing" or "random" feel to them.

 

Examples:

Normal Attack - Baseball Bat, Lead Pipe, 2x4 - If I get solidly hit with one of these, I am going to take a fair amount of Stun damage, and possibly some Body, pretty much every time.

Killing Attack - Laser Beam, Bullet, Fencing Foil - Even a solid hit may make a neat little cut right through me, causing some Body, but very little Stun.

Or, if a vital area is hit (Head, Privates, etc.) I may take massive Stun and only a bit of Body.

Or, on a more normal shot, I may take an average mix of both.

 

I think there needs to be some close observation by the GM during character creation. And I don't think it is unfair to take missed shots into account when fighting in a crowded environment.

But overall, I think the existing method works fine.

 

Remember that for every foe that is Stunned or KO'd by a lucky Stun Multiplier roll, there is the same potential to end up with a foe that is unharmed, unstunned, and not knocked back.

Which means that a foe that could have been, at the least, inconvenienced by a Normal Attack that did some damage/Knockback, you have a foe that is able to take a return shot at you, your teammates, and innocent bystanders.

 

Even though it is possible to "crap out" on a Normal damage roll too, it is less likely than with a Killing Attack.

 

Which means that, if a Character in my group kept "blowing it" by going for the riskier RKA in vital situations, with predictably inconsistent results, my Character would have to have a talk with them.

 

You see this sort of thing in comics from time to time.

Not the exact Normal vs. KA mechanic, but the concept of:

"My RazorArrow is too risky to use in this situation.

If I don't hit him just right, he'll still be able to throw that switch and blow up the hostages!"

 

I have always thought of the way that Normal vs. Killing attacks model the two basic Real World types of weapons as one of the great parts of the system.

And for anyone who does not like the Stun Lotto, there is a solution, it is called a Normal Attack.

Even if your SFX is a gun that fires lead bullets.

You might just do more consistent, and less lethal, damage based on your skill.

You know where to shoot someone to do a consistent amount of Stun without a huge risk of Killing them.

I can even see something like this being put into a Multipower with just an RKA and Energy Blast, for example, based on whether you are Shooting to Kill (and risking just inflicting a minor wound in the hopes of getting a kill shot) or whether you are "Shooting to Wound". (meaning trying to take the target down with a well-placed shot that does a fairly predictable amount of damage and is not likely to kill).

 

KA.

[Frenchman]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

I thought that only applies to BODY damage that actually gets through defenses.

It does

 

Not to throw another wrench in the mix, but I wonder if there should be two 'standards;' one for heroic level and one for supers level. Playing a lot of heroic level games lately, it seems that killing damage is very effective given the lower average resistant defenses.

 

Aroooo

I have to say that I agree with you on this. The killing attack mechanics work GREAT in heroic level games, but pretty badly in superheroic ones.

 

And directed to TRL about your comments on a shotgun=loaded freighter.... Where do you get the idea that a shotgun deals 21d6 (or equivalent DCs of killing damage, which would be 7d6)? According to page 332 of the book, a 12 guage does 2 1/2d6 with a +1 stun multiple, yielding a grand total of 10 DCs, the equivalent of 10d6 normal damage. The biggest attack on that page does 6d6 AP killing, but then again that is a MISSILE.

I'm just curious where your numbers came from.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

It does

 

I have to say that I agree with you on this. The killing attack mechanics work GREAT in heroic level games, but pretty badly in superheroic ones.

 

And directed to TRL about your comments on a shotgun=loaded freighter.... Where do you get the idea that a shotgun deals 21d6 (or equivalent DCs of killing damage, which would be 7d6)? According to page 332 of the book, a 12 guage does 2 1/2d6 with a +1 stun multiple, yielding a grand total of 10 DCs, the equivalent of 10d6 normal damage. The biggest attack on that page does 6d6 AP killing, but then again that is a MISSILE.

I'm just curious where your numbers came from.

 

From the fruit basket. Apples and oranges, but only to an extent.

 

2 1/2d6 = 15 x 5 maximum damage, and you'll probably get that a couple of times in a (combat intensive) session. To do 75 points of stun with a normal attack you'd have to roll on average 21 dice, and when you are rolling that many dice the result will always be close to the average. You will never in your lifetime roll 21 straight 6's.

 

Even comparing apples and apples, 2 1/2 d6 KA is 8 DC. Max 15 Body and 75 Stun. and 8d6 normal attack maxes out at 16 Body and 48 Stun.

 

Why is the normal attack doing more Body and less Stun than a killing attack? Shurely shome mishtake?

 

10d6 - having an subway car dropped on you. Still should do more damage than the shotgun...but doesn't.

[Kal'daka]

Re: Killing attack optioal damage

 

A lot of help and suggestions... thanks . My issues are more higher scale than guns ... I run a Galactic Champions based game 750 base pts plus 150 disadvantages....hey they are fighting dimensional deities and galactic conqueors a lot.. not a problem I deal... one thing that arose dueing game play was a character that has 75 pts resistant ED plus a 75% damage redustion vs energy....... he took a blast from an orbital defense platform.... damage 20d6 KE AP well with his defenses he took no body damage but with the lotto took massive amounts of stun ... obviously the argument arose there the fact that he took no body ...... why all the stun ... plus some other issues with characters taking on space craft same scenerio massive stun ... but no body gets through... so in these type situation to add flare and degrees of flash to the game I have adopted that if no body gets through than no stun is taken on these larger scale attacks.... regular player vs player or villian or such I use the hit tables and a flat 3x stun multplier for basis.....