If you could add one more...

[Silbeg]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

I'd like to add Regeneration.

Good call!!!

Bring back REGEN the way it used to work. This wonky construct using Healing really blows... probably the only real beef I have with 5E

[Boll Weevil]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

The system works pretty good for me but if I had to pick one, I'd like a characteristic that defines smarts. I realize that IQ doesn't always equal smarts. Street smarts and book smarts can be handled with skills. What exactly INT means has always juuuust alluded me even though it is very well explained in the book. Is it merely quickness of thought? I work with many scientists in RL. Many of them arrive at brilliant deductions but do so very slowly. Not to stereotype myself and my co-workers but if you yell "Think Fast!!" and throw a ball at a scientist, well there would be a clean-up in aisle 5.

[Dr.Device]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

Characteristic:

In some of my games I have added the characteristic EDGE. This acts sort of like Luck, in that you can burn it to get better results on rolls. Also, I have players make Edge Rolls (9 + EDGE/5) to determine things like whether or not there's a suitable car to steal, or whether the alley they turned into is a dead end.

 

Skill:

Research. Research is the skill of tracking down information (in books, on line, through appropriate contacts, etc.). I have recently added this to all my campaigns.

 

Power: Regeneration. I still use the old regeneration in my games (with the limbs/resurrection adders). (I also use the old instachange, and a variation on the old shapeshift.

 

Advantage: End cost based on Damage. I haven't worked out the details on this, but I think there should be a standard advantage for forcefields/force walls (or any other endurance costing defense power) that lets them cost zero endurance, except when actually stopping damage.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

You can do that with an EB' date=' STUN Only, or possibly an EB, NND. Since you only want STUN to go in, it's no big deal.[/quote']

 

I think that's pretty obvious, but there was thread about this not too long ago. You should have seen the things people wanted to do just to re-create doing Stun to someone.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

If I were to add something new to the game, it would be an Adder called Variable Adder, which would work just like Variable Advantage, except for Adders.

 

Other than that, I really don't think Hero needs anything new. On the contrary, it could stand to have some of the cruft trimmed away.

[Frenchman]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

I like the idea of the stealing power, its the best one on this thread (not that the others aren't good too, like the implied suggestion to glom Aid and Healing together) but I think it would work best as an adder. +10 points allows an aid (or transfer) to grant powers to its target that they didn't have. Would work great in fantasy games when you want to cast your Spell of Magic Resistance (Aid Power Defense and Mental Defense) on anyone but the guy who allready is magic resistant.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

Probably a broken power' date=' if it were to exist. See the discussion on this...[/quote']

How can a power that doesn't exist be broken? What do you mean by "broken"? Do you think it's too abusive? How do you know, when you don't even know how much it costs yet?

 

If I spent 100 points on the power and I can stun someone with 20 relevent DEF and 20 CON 50% of the time for one phase on a successful hit, then I've clearly paid too much.

If I spent 10 points on the power and I can stun someone with 40 relevent DEF and 40 CON all of the time for one hour on a successful hit, then I've clearly paid too little.

Somewhere in-between is the correct price for this power - the price at which it is neither abusive nor broken.

 

BTW, I think it should just be a limitation on EB (not sure of the value), "Damage is instantly restored next segment", that way it still applies against the usual defenses and CON. And you could buy it AP, NND, AVLD, etc.

 

I still can't figure out why some people think this is the same thing as a STUN-Only EB. They're either just not reading carefully, or they have some mental block that prevents understanding the request. I don't know how it could be explained any clearer.

 

Advantage: End cost based on Damage. I haven't worked out the details on this' date=' but I think there should be a standard advantage for forcefields/force walls (or any other endurance costing defense power) that lets them cost zero endurance, except when actually stopping damage.[/quote']

Excellent idea!

 

And for Adjustment Powers, a series of "Any One Power or Characteristic" Advantages with increasingly broad groups. Currently, we have "Any one Power of One SFX" for +1/4. "Any 2 powers of One SFX", etc. But we don't have "Any one power of a group of related SFX" for say +1/2, or "Any one power of Any SFX" for say +1.

 

And instead of the "Steal" power, just get rid of the arbitrarily restrictive rule that says you can't Aid/Transfer to powers that you don't already have. It isn't really a problem at all to let characters do this. In fact, it's usually less useful than building up a power that you already have.

 

Think about it. Under the current rules:

I can Aid someone's STR, even if they didn't buy any over the base of 10, or even if they sold some, i.e., they spent 0 or less points on STR, but I can still Aid it.

But I can't use Aid to give someone an EB unless they already paid some points for EB.

I can't Aid to give someone an HA unless they already paid some points for HA.

I can Aid someone's PD or ED, even if they didn't spend any points raising these characteristics,

But I can't Aid someone's Damage Resistance, or Armor, unless they already spent points on these.

Nor can I Aid someone's Flash Def, Ego Def, etc. unless they already spent points on them.

I can Aid someone's Running, even if they didn't buy any and even if they sold some back,

But I can't use Aid to give someone Flight, etc.

 

What harm would it do? Aiding someone's EB from 50 to 100 points is usually going to be more useful than Aiding someone's EB from 0 to 50.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

This can be covered in the current powers.... link an NND to the Force Wall (or Entangle)' date=' with the defense being SCB... For the FW, it would need an AE to be the same as the Force Wall's ability to enclose... Of course, you probably want to add Continuous, and even possible Uncontrolled (the power would end if the FW/Entangle is broken).[/quote']

 

An NND attack is not the same as blocking air/suffocating the target. The NND does xd6 STUN each of the attacker's phases. A suffocation attack would ONLY cut off air. The target would (assuming he needs to breathe):

 

- lose 1 END per phase

- Be unable to recover

- lose STUN instead of END if he hits zero END

- suffocate (lose BOD) if KO'd

[CraterMaker]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

How can a power that doesn't exist be broken? What do you mean by "broken"? Do you think it's too abusive? How do you know, when you don't even know how much it costs yet?

 

If I spent 100 points on the power and I can stun someone with 20 relevent DEF and 20 CON 50% of the time for one phase on a successful hit, then I've clearly paid too much.

If I spent 10 points on the power and I can stun someone with 40 relevent DEF and 40 CON all of the time for one hour on a successful hit, then I've clearly paid too little.

Somewhere in-between is the correct price for this power - the price at which it is neither abusive nor broken.

 

BTW, I think it should just be a limitation on EB (not sure of the value), "Damage is instantly restored next segment", that way it still applies against the usual defenses and CON. And you could buy it AP, NND, AVLD, etc.

 

I still can't figure out why some people think this is the same thing as a STUN-Only EB. They're either just not reading carefully, or they have some mental block that prevents understanding the request. I don't know how it could be explained any clearer.

----------------------------------------

 

Excellent idea!

 

And for Adjustment Powers, a series of "Any One Power or Characteristic" Advantages with increasingly broad groups. Currently, we have "Any one Power of One SFX" for +1/4. "Any 2 powers of One SFX", etc. But we don't have "Any one power of a group of related SFX" for say +1/2, or "Any one power of Any SFX" for say +1.

 

And instead of the "Steal" power, just get rid of the arbitrarily restrictive rule that says you can't Aid/Transfer to powers that you don't already have. It isn't really a problem at all to let characters do this. In fact, it's usually less useful than building up a power that you already have.

 

Think about it. Under the current rules:

I can Aid someone's STR, even if they didn't buy any over the base of 10, or even if they sold some, i.e., they spent 0 or less points on STR, but I can still Aid it.

But I can't use Aid to give someone an EB unless they already paid some points for EB.

I can't Aid to give someone an HA unless they already paid some points for HA.

I can Aid someone's PD or ED, even if they didn't spend any points raising these characteristics,

But I can't Aid someone's Damage Resistance, or Armor, unless they already spent points on these.

Nor can I Aid someone's Flash Def, Ego Def, etc. unless they already spent points on them.

I can Aid someone's Running, even if they didn't buy any and even if they sold some back,

But I can't use Aid to give someone Flight, etc.

 

What harm would it do? Aiding someone's EB from 50 to 100 points is usually going to be more useful than Aiding someone's EB from 0 to 50.

 

 

An excellent suggestion, but for Steal you would have to get rid of the point cap that's built into Transfer - I don't know if that would suggest a price increase, or maby an adder on Transfer/Drain, or an advantage... Anybody have any suggestions?

 

I like those arguments for Aid, though.. Good Work!

 

-CraterMaker

[Silbeg]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

An NND attack is not the same as blocking air/suffocating the target. The NND does xd6 STUN each of the attacker's phases. A suffocation attack would ONLY cut off air. The target would (assuming he needs to breathe):

 

- lose 1 END per phase

- Be unable to recover

- lose STUN instead of END if he hits zero END

- suffocate (lose BOD) if KO'd

So, then what you are looking for is some sort of environmental effect...

 

This screams Change Environment, but I am not sure the adder that would be needed (perhaps that is what we really need?)

 

That would be a good question to pose for our favorite guru, Mr. Long?!

[Sean Waters]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

One thing I'd like changed is perception. I'd make it a straight 11-, that you can buy levels for. Never really understood why smart people could see further...

 

Make Mental Defence a stat like PD and ED - everyone should have some IMO.

 

I agree with Hugh Neilson on the suffocate point: very clunky to even try and build it, and get it to work the same way on everyone. In fact there are all sorts of environmental effects that could be applied as a power, dehydration, sunburn, radiation poisoning. I know you can build them using powers, BUT everyone who builds them builds them differently and a 'set effect' power would make for consistency, at least.

 

You could do 'steal' (clunkily) with a tiny VPP and transfer, adding to the pool size, only to simulate the power transferred. Start with a 1 point pool, and go from there...

 

The 'back to original stats doesn't fade' on adjustment powers doesn't work for me: if you lose 10 points and gain 10 points from adjustment powers, the fade rates harmonise anyway, unless the drain (or whatever) was built as a 'destroy' - with decreased return rates. I'd be inclined to allow a power that could increase your rate of return though, by reducing time intervals (still with a minimum of once per turn, probably), AND one that increases the number of points that return. Some people get better quicker than others. A sort of regeneration for drained stats/powers. (Not got the book with me and can't remember if you can already do that with 'heal')

 

I quite fancy an advantage 'based on DEX' or 'based on INT' (or ANY primary stat for that matter). I'm thinking about entangles - someone can't move because their brain has had a huge information dump or logic puzzle dumped into it that it needs to solve, before it can do anything else, or an oil slick which prevents them doing anything but slipping about unless they use DEX to break out, or maybe even a mind control based on DEX to simulate someone taking over motor control - will and toughness would be of less use than enhanced motor contol. I can see a MC or telepathy working well if based on PRE...

 

Never been entirely happy using (just) STR to break out of TK either: seems to me if the SFX are right (a giant hand, for example), STR works fine, but it doesn't work at all if you are hovering in the air because someone reversed gravity under you. Perhaps you could get round that one with 'NND' though, although not under the rules as they stand at present. Maybe an advantage that doesn't allow 'normal' breakout rolls.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

An NND attack is not the same as blocking air/suffocating the target. The NND does xd6 STUN each of the attacker's phases. A suffocation attack would ONLY cut off air.

 

So it's a very tiny, very cheap NND, combo'd with an equally tiny (but slightly less cheap) NND that does Body only if the target is already unconscious. I don't see what's so difficult about that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

So, then what you are looking for is some sort of environmental effect...

 

This screams Change Environment, but I am not sure the adder that would be needed (perhaps that is what we really need?)

 

Yeah, I think a CE approach would be most appropriate. It can always be Linked to an entangle or force wall. One theory on a prior thread was to base the cost on 2d6 of constant Suppress, which would affect 6 points. This was based on the logic that "Breathe in an Environment" costs 5 as Life Support, so we were suppresing the target's ability to breathe in an oxygen/nitrogen environment.

 

That would be a good question to pose for our favorite guru' date=' Mr. Long?![/quote']

 

I initially thought I'd seen the effect somewhere, but Steve answered that it's not in any published book. Steve doesn't generally answer "How to do it" questions.

[Phil]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

what questions...

 

1. Characteristic - Tough. Only one? Maybe Agility. Or perhaps Intuition / Perception. MD is uncontroversial. However, I think I'll avoid the obvious answers and plump for 'Wealth'.

 

2. Skill - Way I see it, the skill list is flexible anyway. PS and the like allow all sort of variance as a built-in. No comment here.

 

3. Power - I like Steal. However, I'd add the power of 'Movement' (and then scrap Running, Flight, Leaping, Swinging, Swimming and Tunnelling)

 

4. Advantage - Just one. Minmaxer +1/4. GM imposed advantage that makes everything cost a little bit more

 

5. Limitation - None. And reduce the values of additional limitations beyond the first.

[nexus]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

So it's a very tiny' date=' very cheap NND, combo'd with an equally tiny (but slightly less cheap) NND that does Body only if the target is already unconscious. I don't see what's so difficult about that.[/quote']

 

Well, if you ignore the rest of what Suffocation this approach works. Otherwise, not so much.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

So it's a very tiny' date=' very cheap NND, combo'd with an equally tiny (but slightly less cheap) NND that does Body only if the target is already unconscious. I don't see what's so difficult about that.[/quote']

 

This does not drain END prior to draining STUN, nor does it remove the ability of the target to take recoveries. It also does doamage on the attacker's phases, not the defender's phases, which eliminates the ability to defer the inevitable by voluntary reduction in SPD.

 

It's not hard to suggest a power with a superficial resemplance to the effect. It's hard to achieve the actual effect under the current rules, especially at a cost commensurate with the benefit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

So, then what you are looking for is some sort of environmental effect...

 

This screams Change Environment, but I am not sure the adder that would be needed (perhaps that is what we really need?)

 

That would be a good question to pose for our favorite guru, Mr. Long?!

 

I'm sure Mr L would direct you to the Environmental Effects section, under Low Pressure, where it suggests using CE in combination with adjustment powers. CE is not powerful enough in itself to create this effect.

 

You would need to supress all of the target's REC (as you can't recover when suffocating). As you have no idea how much REC your target has, you'll need quite a lot to supress all of it in one go and it will have to be NND (LS: Sealed breathing) as Power Defence would be useless. Then you need to get rid of END, STUN and BODY in that order. You can't get rid of END with EB, so you'll need a a supress, NND against END (only to reduce the END to 0), with a continuous NND EB that only effects targets with 0 END and then a continuous NND EB Does Body EB that only effects targets with no stun and no END.

 

All of the effects would have to run simultaneously, certainly if you wanted it to be area effect, as different targets would suffocate at different rates, so you couldn't have it in a power framework.

 

Then you would need to buy your speed up to 12, only for causing damage with your suffocation power, and with the limitation 'only causes damage on opponent's phases'

 

This seems like a longwinded (PI!) way to do what there is already a game effect for, and it would not be cheap at all.

 

If the only way to do something is this clunky, then it seems to me that there is real scope for another power.

[Intrope]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

On steal-power:

their are actually several missing meta-powers in hero:

steal-power

 

clone-power (replicate someone else's powers)

 

grant-power (since Aid doesn't do this)

 

hack-power (the ability to alter someone else's power--like changing the special effect or advantages)

 

control-power (the ability to make use of someone else's powers against their will--especially helpful for altering someone's magical traps, or the like)

 

 

For my part, HERO is missing a Traction Control power: like clinging, but allows more 'alternate surfaces' for running (like water, clouds, or whatever). Mainly, this would eliminate stupidities like 'Flight, only to not fly' that are used for running speedsters.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

This does not drain END prior to draining STUN' date=' nor does it ... [/quote']

 

It's a game, Hugh. Everything -- and I do mean everything -- in every game system is only an approximation for what is actually going on. What is of ultimate importance is that the approximation gives the general feel of the effect, and that it is playable. Game systems that lose sight of this become nightmares of needless complexity, and they die well-deserved deaths on the dustbin of gaming history. If you get hung up on the trivia like this, you'll drive yourself and anyone near you insane.

[nexus]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

It's a game' date=' Hugh. Everything -- and I do mean everything -- in every game system is only an approximation for what is actually going on. What is of ultimate importance is that the approximation gives the general feel of the effect, and that it is playable. Game systems that lose sight of this become nightmares of needless complexity, and they die well-deserved deaths on the dustbin of gaming history. If you get hung up on the trivia like this, you'll drive yourself and anyone near you insane.[/quote']

 

So make "Suffocating/Drowning" an Adder for CE so it duplicates an effect that's already covered in the rules. Its much less complicated than what you have to go threw to duplicate the effect otherwise. I don't see what's so complicated about that.

[tarragon]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

I strongly disagree with PhilFleischmann's idea that it is less useful to add a power than to increase an existing power.

 

That may be true for his example of adding 10DC to someone's eb vs granting someone else a 10DC eb. But for other powers in other situations it's not true, and it's usually more pronounced for adding just a small amount of a power.

 

When I'm falling granting me 2" of flight is much more useful than adding 2" to my flight. If I have flight I don't need those 2". Adding a 1 pip HKA when I need to take down Mr. (non-resistantly) Invincible is more useful when i don't have an HKA. If I have it I don't need it. Granting a 1 pip transform stone to mud lets me (eventually) transform my way out of a jail cell, adding one pip to someone's existing 3d6 transform doesn't shorten the time appreciably.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at? The ability to grant the first couple of points of a power can be overwhelmingly powerful in some circumstances. Flat out giving it for free with aid isn't balanced.

 

And... A method of doing this already exists. Why not use something like a Usable By Others (UBO) power and an aid. Even then I wouldn't be thrilled if someone tried to buy 5" flight UBO (x8 people) and a 1d6 flight aid with a high point limit and a long fade time.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

So make "Suffocating/Drowning" an Adder for CE so it duplicates an effect that's already covered in the rules.

 

I think that's a fine idea. It's straightforward and it fits into the existing rule framework without a lot of rigamarole.

[Silbeg]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

So make "Suffocating/Drowning" an Adder for CE so it duplicates an effect that's already covered in the rules. Its much less complicated than what you have to go threw to duplicate the effect otherwise. I don't see what's so complicated about that.

The only question then becomes how expensive of an adder IS it?

It would probably be pretty significant, but should be on par with decreasing the temperature of the area to a dangerous level. Not having my book here at work, what is considered a "Temperature Level Adjustment"?

The cost could be similar to that of dropping the temp to dangerous levels (where you will start taking environmental damage).

 

Each level of temp increase would be 3 points.

 

A point of damage is 5 points, as is +1 STR Tk...

 

I am guessing that the appropriate cost would be around 20-30 pts, active, as an adder. But that is a VERY rough guess.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

The only question then becomes how expensive of an adder IS it?

 

Yes, indeed. To me, whether we lump this new power under CE or not makes little difference. We could easily segreagte "control temperature", "reduce OCV" or what have you to separate powers, so this works just as well.

 

I don't have my book either. I'd say a 20 point cost is likely in the game, but I'm basing this on gut feel more than anything.

[Just Joe]

Re: If you could add one more...

 

5. Limitation - None. And reduce the values of additional limitations beyond the first.

 

The point-value of additional limitations is already reduced.

 

On a 60 active point power, for example, the first -1 limitation saves 30 points, the second -1 saves just 10 more, the third 5 more, etc.

 

Why would you want to further reduce the value of additional limitations?