PhilFleischmann Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... I strongly disagree with PhilFleischmann's idea that it is less useful to add a power than to increase an existing power. I didn't say it's *always* less useful, only that it's *usually* less useful, or at least no more useful. When I'm falling granting me 2" of flight is much more useful than adding 2" to my flight. If I have flight I don't need those 2". Adding a 1 pip HKA when I need to take down Mr. (non-resistantly) Invincible is more useful when i don't have an HKA. If I have it I don't need it. Granting a 1 pip transform stone to mud lets me (eventually) transform my way out of a jail cell, adding one pip to someone's existing 3d6 transform doesn't shorten the time appreciably. Yes, but in most gaming situations, you'll have fairly well-rounded characters on a fairly well-rounded team. If LeadWeight is falling from a height, he can probably take it. If MonkeyMan is falling, he can use his acrobatics and breakfall. If Weak Sidekick Boy is falling, Captain Airplane will swoop down and catch him, or Trampoline Girl will give him something soft to land on. Likewise, if I don't have a Killing Attack and I need one, I look around for something sharp and pick it up. And if my teammate knows I'm in a stone jail cell, he could just transform the walls to mud himself, rather than giving me the power. With standard Aid, those 2" of Flight, 1 pip HKA, or 1 pip Transform are going to fade in a Turn or less. If I'm falling at 20" per phase, it's going to take me at least 10 phases to pull out of my dive with only 2" of Flight. Do you see what I'm getting at? The ability to grant the first couple of points of a power can be overwhelmingly powerful in some circumstances. Flat out giving it for free with aid isn't balanced. Yes, I do see what you're getting at. Granting a small, new power is certainly useful, but I disagree that it is "overwhelmingly powerful." And you aren't "giving it for free" - Aid must be paid for like any other power, and using it requires an Attack Action at no range by default. So let's say you've got 1d6 Aid to Flight at range - costs 15 points. Your buddy is falling. What do you do: use your phase to grant him 2" of flight, or use your phase to go get him using your own flight? Yes, it's useful to have the option, that's why you paid the 15 points, but it isn't worth more than the 15 points you paid. A slight side note: In case this really bothers you, you can make a house rule that a "new power" you get from an Aid cannot be pushed at all. This makes sense in-game as well as for balance. You can push the powers that you already have because you're already intimately familiar with them, but new powers are going to feel awkward. And... A method of doing this already exists. Why not use something like a Usable By Others (UBO) power and an aid. Even then I wouldn't be thrilled if someone tried to buy 5" flight UBO (x8 people) and a 1d6 flight aid with a high point limit and a long fade time. Right! If it's legal and fine to grant someone a power with UBO, why is it abusive to grant a power with Aid? Combining the two together as you mentioned might be abusive, but it's already legal in the rules! I think my way is much simpler and not abusive at all. (OK, yes, there might be some circumstances where it could be abused, but that's true for all powers.) An excellent suggestion, but for Steal you would have to get rid of the point cap that's built into Transfer - I don't know if that would suggest a price increase, or maby an adder on Transfer/Drain, or an advantage... Anybody have any suggestions? I like those arguments for Aid, though.. Good Work! Can't you buy up the point cap for Adjustment Powers already? Is that not available for Transfer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted December 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Personally, I think the ability to add new powers with Aid or Transfer should be an Advantage or an Adder or something on those powers. I mean, yes you can Aid someone's running or base attribute even if they didn't spend any points on it or sold it back but all base characters are assumed to have Running, attributes, every character isn't assumed to have Flight or an Energy Blast. Most examples I can think of for Aid and related Powers don't give the target new powers but increase the one's they have. I think the ability should be possible, just cost you something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilFleischmann Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... I think the ability should be possible' date=' just cost you something.[/quote'] Fine, perhaps it should, but why? Why should you have to pay a premium for giving someone 10" of flight over simply adding 10" to their existing flight? There may be a good reason to charge extra for this, but I haven't seen it yet. Another possibility is to let Aid have a reduced effect (say half) when adding powers the subject doesn't already have. But this reduced effect would still have to be justified in game-balance terms. Why should it do less? Why should you pay more? You pay more for something more powerful. I haven't seen any reason why this is more powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted December 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Fine, perhaps it should, but why? Why should you have to pay a premium for giving someone 10" of flight over simply adding 10" to their existing flight? There may be a good reason to charge extra for this, but I haven't seen it yet. Adding 10 inches of flight improves something they already have, giving them 10 inches of Flight gives them an ability they don't have. That seems more powerful and useful to me. You could, for example, Give your entire team Flight before a fight (if you buy down that fade rate a bit), which would be more useful than just Aiding the ones that do have Flight already. Its more useful to give me Energy Blast when I don't have one than to give me more dice, IMO. You've give more options, not just the same options with a little more omph. There's also the low dice, high cap, low fade rate approach to Aid thats very effective already. This could make it an easy way to grant Superpowers. IOW, This is more powerful than Aid as it works now because now the target has to have the powers you are aiding. With this option your Aid is universal. It works on anyone regardless of them having the power or not. At least IMO. This part is totally personal. Going by the source material, the ability to create new powers in others is generally rarer and considered more powerful than the ability to enhance powers that are already there. Thus, I think it should be at least slightly more expensive or at least not the common way Aid functions. For one, you'd see alot of characters with a limitation on their Aid/Transfer "Cannot create new powers" -Whatever it should be worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... As we're talking additions and not rules changes, I'd like to see the Object Creation rules from DH made official. ^ Agreed. Also, Mattingly's variations on AoE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted December 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Here's a question. How would the ability to Aid powers that the target doesn't have interact with Aid's brought for entire Special Effects? Say someone with Aid to All Mutants Powers +20 Can Aid Powers from Nothing. Could this character create any power in a Target (or himself) that he sees fit as long as the GM deems its possible for it to be a Mutant Power? Though that would be a simple way to model Quantum Supremacy from Aberrant and like powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... How about an Advantage that lets Absorption function as a Defense, maybe +1? An Adder for Running called something like "Surface Capable" that would look running along any surface, like water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... An Adder for Running called something like "Surface Capable" that would look running along any surface' date=' like water.[/quote'] I think it should be a +1/4 Advantage, similar to underwater Flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Has anyone actually read the effects of suffocation/drowning? Might be an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... There are differences between running and flight, most notably, running doesn't have a turn mode. If you could run over a liquid because you moved so fast I'd want it done as flight with a limitation. If you could run over liquid because your molecular control allowed you to solidify the fluid under your feet, you could use running with an advantage. Neither way is right or better, but if you don't think through the sfx one or the other could be wrong or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Granting powers you or the target don't have? Tiny little VPP with UBO and an aid to the VPP powers. Surprisingly straightforward. Stealing powers? Same thing but use transfer. How about an adder for transfer to transfer from Target A to Target B rather than yourself? You can do it with aid and drain, but that is cludgy unless you use standard effect rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted December 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... I don't think most of the suggestions on this thread contend that you can't do the specific ability mentioned in Hero already, but that there is a more elegant and straightforward way to do it in the poster's opinion. Of course, I can't speak for them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... I don't think most of the suggestions on this thread contend that you can't do the specific ability mentioned in Hero already' date=' but that there is a more elegant and straightforward way to do it in the poster's opinion. Of course, I can't speak for them all.[/quote'] Well alrightee. I agree a custom built power will be more elegant (but not necessarily any more straightforward) than one cobbled together from bits. Mind you, to cover all the bases, 6th edition is going to have to run to 10 volumes. I don't disagree with you I just think that there is no point custom designing a power that is pretty easy to do in HERO. We need powers for stuff it can't do, doesn't do properly or that is ridiculously expensive or complicated under the present system. Like shape shift... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted December 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Well alrightee. I agree a custom built power will be more elegant (but not necessarily any more straightforward) than one cobbled together from bits. Mind you, to cover all the bases, 6th edition is going to have to run to 10 volumes. I don't disagree with you I just think that there is no point custom designing a power that is pretty easy to do in HERO. We need powers for stuff it can't do, doesn't do properly or that is ridiculously expensive or complicated under the present system. Like shape shift... Of course, but what is hopelessly clunky and what's straightforwad is a matter of opinion. That is what I was asking for when I started the thread. Some folks don't find the VPP solution straightfoward at all. Heck, I'll admit I never thought of it and I've been playing for awhile. Wouldn't you have to buy UBO as a Naked Advantage or did I misunderstand your proposal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Of course' date=' but what is hopelessly clunky and what's straightforwad is a matter of opinion. That is what I was asking for when I started the thread. Some folks don't find the VPP solution straightfoward at all. Heck, I'll admit I never thought of it and I've been playing for awhile. Wouldn't you have to buy UBO as a Naked Advantage or did I misunderstand your proposal?[/quote'] I've never used it either, or seen it used for that matter, but thinking out loud...the cost of one point of any power useable by yourself, and up to four others simultaneously is 2 points (one point with a +1 advantage). You could buy 10 points so you could grant up to 5 different powers simultaneously to yourself and four others (or individual powers to yourself and 20 others). Make the control cost cosmic so that you can allocate the points instantly and however you like, that'll be 15 points, so the VPP will cost 25 points. Then you need the aid on top, probably at the +2 level so you can power up your new suite of superpowers quickly I think this is a ludicrously savage assault on the integrity of the rules (wink wink). I'm sure you agree (wink wink). I feel dirty for even having thought of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraterMaker Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... I like VPP, I really do.. But I'm thinking about all the Jr. Hero's out there, just starting out, who might be a little frustrated with trying to understand byzantine power builds to simulate fairly simple effects.. Plus, if I may point out.. Using a transfer and a VPP will still leave you with a maximum point cap, which is terribly hampering when you're trying to Steal a high active point power. 6d6 Transfer = 36 active point cap, and at 90 points to boot..... So, like it's been said, it's clunky and confusing (to our newer brethren) and it STILL doesn't do this archetypical power justice (IMHO).. -CraterMaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... I like VPP, I really do.. But I'm thinking about all the Jr. Hero's out there, just starting out, who might be a little frustrated with trying to understand byzantine power builds to simulate fairly simple effects.. Plus, if I may point out.. Using a transfer and a VPP will still leave you with a maximum point cap, which is terribly hampering when you're trying to Steal a high active point power. 6d6 Transfer = 36 active point cap, and at 90 points to boot..... So, like it's been said, it's clunky and confusing (to our newer brethren) and it STILL doesn't do this archetypical power justice (IMHO).. -CraterMaker First off let me agree, the VPP construct is not an obvious one, and many new players would find it confusing to build it, but I think that it wouldn't be too difficult to use once you had it. I'm not keen on VPPs generally. I wasn't kidding about feeling dirty. I can think of other ways to do it, but they all use VPP (mimic pool is a specific power in the book), and I'm working on something with multiform... As to your other points, I'm pretty sure that any power designed for hero would have a maximum points cap one way or another (you can increase the points cap on a 2 for 1 point basis anyway). That is kind of the meta-philosophy of the system, and any power that allowed you to steal a power you didn't have would wind up costing more than transfer does now, that you can guarantee. Stealing power as Rogue from X-Men does is too powerful. It is a show stopper. In the comics she doesn't like doing it and she has script editors in case she gets out of hand. I fear justice may never be done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraterMaker Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... I don't know if I agree with you about point caps being a meta-philosophy of the game system - there is no cap on drain or suppress, if I'm remembering correctly. So, while I do agree that Steal would certainly be more expensive than Transfer, I'm not going to rule out it having no maximum limit, or an increased maximum limit (say, twelve points per d6). And as to how much more expensive it will be, or whether that added expense comes in the form of an adder, an advantage, or a new power listing, I'll leave that up to the game designers. That is, if they think there is a need to include it, of course. And about Rogue.. Being able to steal a Mutants' powers IS kind of overbearing in a comic book about mutants, with mutants as villians, and having mutants as allies.. In a more generic game world, with aliens, cyborgs, mages, martial artists, and other superpowered individuals, it becomes slightly less Uberpowered. Top that with a price cost of, say, 20 points per D6 - with a 60 AP power being able to steal on average 10 AP of power a phase - and only one specific power, mind you, not even the whole EC or MP - it becomes a case of rapidly diminishing returns for your investment. In fact, looking at my ramblings above, it might be cheaper over all to use a mimic pool and a linked 0 end Suppress rather than a slightly more expensive Transfer.. I'll have to do some write ups to compare when I have time. I would definately like to see your ideas on using a multiform, they sound intrigueing! -CraterMaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbsousa Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... If I could add one more... Advantage: Smart Charges, as a modifier to charges. These would represent charges that are not expended unless they hit the target. A lassoo could have 1 smart charge, or a boomerang, or a lock-on missile. Limitation: Reciprocal. a Limitation to Damage Shield, that indicates that damage cannot exceed the damage inflicted by the target triggering the Damage Shield. Skill Enhancer: Assistant. Any skill bought with this enhancer costs 1 point less, but can only be used to assist someone with more skill in the power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... I don't know if I agree with you about point caps being a meta-philosophy of the game system - there is no cap on drain or suppress' date=' if I'm remembering correctly. [/quote'] Ah, but therein lies the beauty of the system: the cap is the number of points you can drain, and if everyone is working to an AP limit, the cap is the AP limit: you can't drain more than there is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... The multiform thing was just an idea that I was kicking around that you become your opponent in everything except disadvantages and appearance. You'd need a VPP (again...so DIRTY!) that creates multiforms only and the active points should allow you to build a multiform of the same points as the campaign limit. The remainder of your power is basically a stun drain. The VPP multiform can only activate for someone you have rendered unconscious with the stun drain... Still on the drawing board... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Power: Mind Switch. I'd like to see the Incomplete Hero rules become official. I'd like to see all of the Resistant Defense Powers rolled into one, with Advantages and Limitations to make it work different ways. I'd like to see all of the Movement Powers cleaned up so that they're more balanced together. 1" of Running costs the same as 1" of Flight costs the same as 1" of Teleport. WTF? I'd like to see Telekinesis done away with and replaced with STR Usable At Range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Shaping: the ability to mould matter into new shapes. I know you can do it with some combination of tunnelling and transform, but if there is a power you have to do with transform, it probably needs its own power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Change environment? An NND attack is not the same as blocking air/suffocating the target. The NND does xd6 STUN each of the attacker's phases. A suffocation attack would ONLY cut off air. The target would (assuming he needs to breathe): - lose 1 END per phase - Be unable to recover - lose STUN instead of END if he hits zero END - suffocate (lose BOD) if KO'd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Re: If you could add one more... Change environment? Whether a new power or an adder for CE, it needs a cost. There is no present mechanic to create this effect, esp. the recovery issue, and the reduction of loss rate if a target voluntary reduces speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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