The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

[Kristopher]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Ok. The philosophy behind Vertigo has never been that cynicism equals meaningfulness equals maturity. If you can find that in print somewhere I will gladly take back my last statement. Now I will say that Vertigo has put out some titles that I have had problems with. (I would have a hard time recommending 'The Eaters' to anyone.) But so has every other company. By saying that a comic book company only puts out cynical comics when you can point out several titles that are not, you are doing a disservice to any author that happens to be working for that company who is not putting out crap. Now I hate what they did to the Avengers. It has that 'Death of Superman' reek to it. I think we are in firm agreement on that point. I just disagree with your sweeping generalization of a company that has put out titles that would not ever make it in the halls of spandex and capes.

 

Well said.

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I never, to my knowledge, made any sweeping statements about any company. I was commenting on Vertigo, a LINE of DC Comics, not DC itself. And, even then, I qualified the statement by exempting stuff that had some merit. That being said, I think the problem remains. Vertigo made it's "name " as you will on producing comis for "mature" readers. In fact, all it was was a shallow and cynical excuse to produce comics with lots of over the top and gratuitous content which they'd have a hard time pandering anywhere else. And there was nothing mature about the content. Believe me, I've known my share of drug addicts and they tend not to be so much "mature" as "losers". So, maybe it's a semantic difference but Vertigo, in my opinion, has always pandered to the guttural and the cynical and the self indlugent. Shock value instead of story value. Self indlugence as opposed to story telling. But hey, if that kind of thing works for you, who am I to comment.

 

Vigil

[Chimpira]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

As I see it, problems happen in all comic companies. Quite a few marvelous mature titles have come out of the line that is Veritigo. It is a shame that more than a few of their other ones have no substance, but if I was to talk about substance in comics I would be hard pressed to name a comic company that oozes substance. You say that a few comics have merit and then comdemn the line that gave those books to us. Without the line, we would not have had those books in the first place. So exactly how does one go about exempting those comics that are reliant on the line, if the the line does not exist, as you so clearly wish it did not?

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

That's not true either. Those titles that I mentioned would have had substance, with or without the line. remember the greatest Vertigo title ever wasn't even in the line...it was the inspiration for the line, that being Alan Moore's brilliant Swamp Thing. What I'm saying is the Vertigo was created in order to tell "darker" or more "mature" stories that wouldn't fit in with DC's regular line and that somewhere along the line the simple minded editorial staff reached a de facto decision that darker and more mature meant cynical, nihilistic, and juvenille. In an attempt to capture "real" life Vertigo has created a cynical parody of it.

 

Do you know anyone like Constantine? No? Well he's an example of a "realistic" character from Vertigo (and again the character was at his best before his book became a Vertigo imprint). I think what Vertigo managed to do was take characters who were otherwise nuanced and reduce them to dark parodies of their former selves in order to make them "relevant" and realistic.

 

Maybe they were trying to be European or even kinda Japanese but Vertigo, by and large, is a line without irony. By that I mean they have absolutely no appreciation for or understanding of the fact that these characters are as much parodies as Ambush Bug is. And I'm sure the vast majority of Vertigo writers would deny that to their dying breaths (save for Alan Moore who is god-like and beyond reproach).

 

I guess what it ultimately boils down to is that I absolutely despise the pretentiousness of most of the Vertigo line and other books of that ilk. I think maybe the worst consequence of Vertigo is that its contagion seems to have spread to the mainstrem. Now everyone has to be "edgy" and relevant.

 

Take for example the much revamped Hulk and the Jones (I believe it was) revamping. Did all the angst and internal tomrent really do anything to advance or nuance the Hulk My answer is Hell, no beacuse the Hulk is about externalizing inward tension. He's about releasing rage, not brooding existentiallly. As Stan Lee says (and he should know) he's about "Hulk smash!"

 

And I think that points to yet another fundamental flaw of many of the Vertigo style writers. They just don't understand the charcters that they are writing, at all. In fact, I don't think they want to cause they're so egocentric that they want to write what they want to write regardless of the characters. It's this kind of disrespect for character (as brilliant displayed in the Disassembled books) that make me, as a writer and as a fan, livid. It takes no skill whatsoever to maim or mutilate a character. What does take skill is to work within the established parameters of a character, warts and all, and try to find new nuances and new ideas in that. Alan Moore is the undisputed master of this and Busiek is pretty good too due, in part, to the fatc that they oth respect and revel in the characters and their histories.

 

So, finally, what I'm saying is that Vertigo may have a place but let's not forget where it came from and who made who. I think Vertigo has done a great disservice to the industry by glorifying the cyncial and the nihilistic. And I don't think that's progressed anything at all.

 

Vigil

[JmOz]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

As always it is the simptom and not the disease that gets discussed.

 

Vetigo's hay day was the early-mid 90's, you know the era that gave us Image? While won't compare them, you have to remember that this time was for comic books Dickens wrote "It was the Best of Time, It was the worst of time". The envelope was being pushed in all directions, but at the same time we got some very juvenile attempts at mature literature.

[Kristopher]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

As always it is the simptom and not the disease that gets discussed.

 

Vetigo's hay day was the early-mid 90's, you know the era that gave us Image? While won't compare them, you have to remember that this time was for comic books Dickens wrote "It was the Best of Time, It was the worst of time". The envelope was being pushed in all directions, but at the same time we got some very juvenile attempts at mature literature.

 

Again, well said.

[Chimpira]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

That's not true either. Those titles that I mentioned would have had substance, with or without the line. remember the greatest Vertigo title ever wasn't even in the line...it was the inspiration for the line, that being Alan Moore's brilliant Swamp Thing. What I'm saying is the Vertigo was created in order to tell "darker" or more "mature" stories that wouldn't fit in with DC's regular line and that somewhere along the line the simple minded editorial staff reached a de facto decision that darker and more mature meant cynical, nihilistic, and juvenille. In an attempt to capture "real" life Vertigo has created a cynical parody of it.

 

Do you know anyone like Constantine? No? Well he's an example of a "realistic" character from Vertigo (and again the character was at his best before his book became a Vertigo imprint). I think what Vertigo managed to do was take characters who were otherwise nuanced and reduce them to dark parodies of their former selves in order to make them "relevant" and realistic.

 

Maybe they were trying to be European or even kinda Japanese but Vertigo, by and large, is a line without irony. By that I mean they have absolutely no appreciation for or understanding of the fact that these characters are as much parodies as Ambush Bug is. And I'm sure the vast majority of Vertigo writers would deny that to their dying breaths (save for Alan Moore who is god-like and beyond reproach).

 

I guess what it ultimately boils down to is that I absolutely despise the pretentiousness of most of the Vertigo line and other books of that ilk. I think maybe the worst consequence of Vertigo is that its contagion seems to have spread to the mainstrem. Now everyone has to be "edgy" and relevant.

 

Take for example the much revamped Hulk and the Jones (I believe it was) revamping. Did all the angst and internal tomrent really do anything to advance or nuance the Hulk My answer is Hell, no beacuse the Hulk is about externalizing inward tension. He's about releasing rage, not brooding existentiallly. As Stan Lee says (and he should know) he's about "Hulk smash!"

 

And I think that points to yet another fundamental flaw of many of the Vertigo style writers. They just don't understand the charcters that they are writing, at all. In fact, I don't think they want to cause they're so egocentric that they want to write what they want to write regardless of the characters. It's this kind of disrespect for character (as brilliant displayed in the Disassembled books) that make me, as a writer and as a fan, livid. It takes no skill whatsoever to maim or mutilate a character. What does take skill is to work within the established parameters of a character, warts and all, and try to find new nuances and new ideas in that. Alan Moore is the undisputed master of this and Busiek is pretty good too due, in part, to the fatc that they oth respect and revel in the characters and their histories.

 

So, finally, what I'm saying is that Vertigo may have a place but let's not forget where it came from and who made who. I think Vertigo has done a great disservice to the industry by glorifying the cyncial and the nihilistic. And I don't think that's progressed anything at all.

 

Vigil

You say that those stories would have substance elsewhere. I believe that, as well. Now the problem that I run into is where exactly would that be? Where would these titles come from that would not cost you all your living expenses to produce or be able to reach a large audience through a halfway decent amount of publicity. Image maybe? But they have their own set of problems, as well.

 

Listen Vigil, this is really going around in circles. I understand what you are saying but the fact remains that although quite a bit of garbage can be put out by Vertigo, they do put out some decent titles as well. You have admitted that yourself. Some writers have ego problems, some writers do not know how to tell a story well, and some writers are so good you would read what they write if it was on a roll of toilet paper. This is true of most companies. We have to take the good with the bad. Quite frankly, I am finished on this matter and do not wish to derail this thread any further than it already has been. But before I go, I am curious. I have often heard you speak of being a writer and would like to see some of your work. Where could I find some?

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I think you make a good point and raise an issue that I hadn't given any real creedence to; that being, Image Comics. To be entirely honest I think Image may be as responsible for the sorry state of a lot of comics today as Vertigo (although I hate them less, lol). I think in their own way Image through their almost pornographic portrayal of women and cardboard approach to ultra-violence contributed to the slide of the industry as much as Vertigo did. I guess, lol, that I just hate them less. In the final analysis I just miss that great point of paralax in the Bronze Age when all of these factors were in balance. Maybe I'm gettin' old.

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

To Chimpira:

 

Yes, I do write. In my hometown here, I worked as the resident script analyst for A Channel and have a degree in screen writing. I also had a few scripts optioned in Toronto but never produced. Comic wise, I was (am? lol) in negotiations with an image brand for a couple of new series. Can't say more...but I may be able to privately send you a smaple of the amazing artwotk of my co-creator. Again, no hard feelings in the previous. I just think the industry could do better and has in the past. Cheers.

 

Vigil

[Chimpira]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

No hard feelings on my part. The industry has done better in the past and I believe it can do so in the future. We just got to keep calling them on it. Cheers.

[Eyendasky80]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

One year later. Has your opinion changed? Are you still reading? Did you start/stop?

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Pretty much the same: I'm not convinced it's a good idea, and I'd like to read it out of curiousity. They've had a year to get me curious enough to buy an issue. Hasn't happened yet. Still, no outright condemnation.

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

One year later.

 

Time flies and so did my 30+ year subscription to and love of The Avengers.

 

For me, The New Avengers have come to occupy that same sort of space as groups like The Authority and The Ultimates, namely, a cynical, self indulgent style of characterization and storytelling where, it seems, the writer is loathe to admit that he even reads comics, nonethelss likes them cause that wouldn't be cool. All of which is further complicated by the need for some mysterious and vague sort of "believability" and relevance...which to me is transposing the writer's neurosis onto the characters.

 

For me, the final straw came early in the new series with Iron man and Cap making excuses for having a homicidal maniac (Wolverine) on the team cause he can do things they won't or can't do. So, being a party to homicide is okay if you don't kill anyone yourself. Nice. And morally convenient too. As convenient, in fact, as turning Captain America from a struggling and at time doubting idealist and patriot to a callous cynic. Makes for easier storytelling when there's no moral conflict and you don't have to worry about fiddly thing like established characterizations and continuity.

 

I could go on and on but for me, in trying to capture something new and trendy they lost what was old and estimable, the classic Avengers.

 

And they lost me, too.

 

V

[Troll]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

The New Avengers, in my opinion, are crap. The death of Hawkeye, Vision and turing Scarlet Witch and Quicksliver into insane villians was a slap in the face to long time Avengers fans like myself, again in my opinion. The whole "New" Avengers reminds me of the Heros Reborn Avengers, and as with that cluster I believe this too shall pass.

 

Wake me when Bendis leaves will ya?

[Hermit]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

One year later. Has your opinion changed? Are you still reading? Did you start/stop?

 

Still reading, and I have a subscription. I would say on a scale of 1 to 10, the series has been between 4 and 7, that is "blah" to "good" over all. The pacing is slower than I like, but some of the interaction is quite good (many have praised the Cage/Spider-Man patter, I'm among them). What's more, I am a fan of the original Spider-Woman, and thus enjoying her return to the costume. Bendis seems to have trouble with the character of Captain America; from everything I've seen, Bendis has to like a character to really get into the heads, and while he doesn't seem to hate Cap, he doesn't grok him either. There was some sign of improvement recently in that area, and that makes me happier. Some of the mysteries have been intriguing (again if slow) but the pay off had me going 'meh'. I hope the one regarding Jessica has a better delievery than Sentry's reveal.

 

Finch's art is very good, except for two things... he seems to have trouble with faces (he's getting better) and sometimes he seems out of the loop on the story, and this causes him to make visual mistakes. Not sure if that's his fault, or the fault of the editor, but they really need to coordinate better. I think Finch gets a raw deal from some fans. I believe he has admited that the Bendis approach to talking a lot and slower pace is somewhat frustrating for him as an artist, but that maybe just rumor.

 

It's not a bad book, and I even like it, but Marvel's stated rationale for the change before falls flat. We do not have "Marvel's A List" (Sorry, Ronin, Sentry, etc do not quite count) nor the most powerful (Again, if you asked for Marvel's powerhouses, at least half of this group would not come to mind), and while I can't blame Bendis for snatching up his favorites (I know "I" would if I were able to) his doing so has ruined any message of either 'best' OR 'most popular' that J Q swore up and down was the plan IIRC. Bendis seems on a 'rotating' membership, and it's starting to wear thin. Wolverine is left out of the Ronin story line because his own experiences in Japan render that character needless. Sentry is proclaimed 'not ready', but the real reason seems to be that he's too hard to write in and still provide a challenge for our heroes. I don't want Wolverine in the Avengers, but if I were a big Logan fan who'd bought the book in part to see our clawed hero, I'd feel really short changed right now. In a faster paced book, it would work, (and has worked in the past) because they only get skipped every other issue, and not for three months straight.

 

 

My suggestion if you want to look into it? Buy the NA trades when/if they come out for it instead, Bendis' writing is more suited to that.

[Hermit]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

For me, the final straw came early in the new series with Iron man and Cap making excuses for having a homicidal maniac (Wolverine) on the team cause he can do things they won't or can't do. So, being a party to homicide is okay if you don't kill anyone yourself. Nice. And morally convenient too. As convenient, in fact, as turning Captain America from a struggling and at time doubting idealist and patriot to a callous cynic. Makes for easier storytelling when there's no moral conflict and you don't have to worry about fiddly thing like established characterizations and continuity.

 

V

 

The above mentioned is one of the things that I have to agree with you on. I almost dropped the series myself for that reason, and it was proof that Bendis just doesn't understand Captain America. Fer crying out loud, it isn't like Cap hasn't made the hard choice himself in the past, and as you point out, getting someone on the team just to act as your 'hit man' is morally reprenshible.

 

Then, oddly, Wolverine kept vanishing, and the subject hasn't come up, so I kept giving it a chance. I'll see if they act on it.

 

The 'good news' (?) is that as of NA#15 (EdIT: I Got the issue number wrong I guess), there will be yet another roster change.

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Will the roster change include the writer...or is Busiek's return too much to hope for?

 

V

[Hermit]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Sorry, it was 15 not 17

 

NEW AVENGERS #15

 

The Story:

The time has come for the New Avengers to go public. Who will stand and declare themselves a New Avenger? Some stay and some go. And some old friends come back to the fold. All this and the New Avengers face their toughest opponent yet... J. Jonah Jameson! Plus the secrets of Jessica Drew continue.

32 PGS./ RATED A ...$2.50

 

In Stores: 01-25-2006

 

And it looks like Bendis is staying on it. I would LOVE Busiek to take over but I don't think a writer change'll happen any time soon. Heck, truth to tell, I like the way JMS handled the New Avengers in the Amazing Spider-Man book more than Bendis does. JMS' interaction between Tony and Peter was great

[Vigil]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I agree and much better than JMS's work on Supreme Power which has become a real cure for insomnia. 19 issues and the team hasn't even formed! That's gotta be a new all-time record for pointless wordiness.

 

V

[Chimpira]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I like Supreme Power. I liked it when I read issue 1 and I still like it. When they do become a team I probably will not care for it as much as the whole effect of how they interact with the world will become diluted. I have not cared for any of the spinoffs though.

 

On the flip side, Avengers is a team book and I would like to see the whole team together for once. I like the book. I can't believe that they have me reading The Avengers again, a comic I dropped shortly after Starfox joined and they had their big Eternals story arc. Somehow it just made me go eh. I was collecting Avengers back in the day when George Perez was doing it and loooovved those stories. I took a peek back in the door during Avengers Disassembled and nearly threw up.

 

I picked up the New Avengers because Bendis put Luke Cage in. After the hatchet job that writers have been doing to him for a number of years, especially Azzarello, I was glad to see him portrayed close to the way I like to see him. I can't gripe about Captain America because I never really got him either and I had been reading comics since 1974. I was a little let down by The Ronin thing. The whole time I was going "That better not be a woman in a padded suit because that would be total crap" sigh.

 

All in all, though, I like the series and loved the kitchen moment between Cap and Spiderwoman.

[Blue]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I often see Wolverine referred to as homocidal.

 

Frankly, I can't recall an instance of Wolvering actually killing someone. There's plenty of shots of him tearing through sentinels, slashing people, etc. But then I never collected the Wolverin solo series and theres about an 8 year gap in my knowledge of comics.

 

I'm just wondering who he's killed?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I'm just wondering who he's killed?

 

Many, many mooks in his own series. Few people in team books, and those often mercy killings, or villains who later turned up not dead.

[Chimpira]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

I often see Wolverine referred to as homocidal.

 

Frankly, I can't recall an instance of Wolvering actually killing someone. There's plenty of shots of him tearing through sentinels, slashing people, etc. But then I never collected the Wolverin solo series and theres about an 8 year gap in my knowledge of comics.

 

I'm just wondering who he's killed?

 

Oh, a butt load of hand ninjas and the leader of the ninjas that was Mariko's(Logan's fiancee)... father? It has been a while since I read that mini. Actually I have not read it since it first came out.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Oh' date=' a butt load of hand ninjas[/quote']

 

Hand ninjas aren't always "alive." I'm not sure killing them counts.

 

But I know I've seen him cutting down gangsters in Madripoor.

[Chimpira]

Re: The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

 

Hand ninjas aren't always "alive." I'm not sure killing them counts.

 

But I know I've seen him cutting down gangsters in Madripoor.

 

I would tend to agree with you if these Ninjas had turned to vapor but unfortunately there was little doubt that they were dead. I am referring to the first Wolverine mini series.