Fourth Age Hero

[Savinien]

I've been contemplating what sort of setting I'd create for running Fantasy Hero. A long time ago, I thought a MERP to Hero conversion would be cool, but I'm known as a lazy cuss (because I am of course!). Anyway, I was thinking a cool setteing would be Middle Earth a century or so into the Fourth Age.

 

I've glossed over Encyclopedia Arda and the RotK glossary.

 

Anyone have any thoughts to add?

 

At this stage, I'm figuring the Northern Ithillian as a good spot to start a game.

 

A particular sticking point is the magic of Middle Earth. A cohort of mine has been fairly strong in his belief that only the Istari and similar beings are capable of magic at all. I disagreed, citing the ICE MERP books and their uses of magic as well as a quote from the movie, "A Wizard is never late. He always arrives precisely when he meanst to." From that statement, one would tend to think that other Wizards exist in Middle Earth.

 

Anyway, I open the topic to discussion.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Your acquaintance is correct in that in Middle Earth it seems to be only the Istari and others of the Maia, such as Sauron, who wield the traditional "spells 'n' fireballs" kind of wizardly magic we have come to expect from every Fantasy RPG, and judging by Gandalf's sparing use of his spells it is extremely draining even for them. The Maia (including the Istari) are not human, nor are they of any other mortal race. They walked the Earth even before the Elves. When Gandalf refers to other Wizards he is talking about the other Istari.

 

It is plain that that is not the only kind of magic in Middle Earth, though.

 

Judging by references in both The Hobbit and LOTR the Elves have a magic all of their own. Though it does not seem to involve much in the way of hand-waving and incantations it is nonetheless powerful magic and it varies greatly from individual to individual; from Elrond's healing powers, to Galadriel's ability to touch the minds of others, to Legolas's trackless stride and his almost supernatural ability with a bow.

 

From references in The Hobbit it seems that the Dwarves can craft enchanted items of various sorts, though that seems to be the limit of their magical abilities.

 

Some humans of noble lineage possess superhuman abilities in combat and other areas, and even have greatly extended lifespans, but no actual "magic" to speak of.

 

The Hobbits are perhaps the least magical race of all, but they do seem to possess almost supernatural stealth, and most probably (in HERO terms) a few levels of luck.

 

Edit: P.S. On the subject of the MERP books, it's plain that they "spiced up" the magic of Middle Earth to some degree to make it more attractive to roleplayers, and it does not present an accurate picture of magic in Middle Earth as written about by Tolkien in his books. If you want to take this approach there is nothing to stop you from just converting MERP's idea of magic directly to HERO System.

 

P.P.S. I deliberately did not mention The Silmarillion because it is a long time since I last read it, but I cannot recall it containing anything that contradicts what I said above.

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I was a Tolkein fan before I was a roleplayer (but that just means that I was a fan between the ages 9 and 12).

 

There are currently 5 wizards in Middle Earth (okay, there were during the majority of Lord of the Rings, after that there were 3).

Radaghast the Brown, two Blue wizards (off in the east), Saruman the White and Gandalf the Grey.

By the end of LotR, of course, Saruman is dead and Gandalf has left Middle Earth.

 

A note on wizards - they aren't human. They're Istari or Miai (sp?) - basically Angels for the pantheon. Sauron and the Balrog are also the same race as the wizards. Sauron's boss however - the guy he learnt everything from, Melkor (or Morgoth) is a God (and still not dead, only locked up). Melkor sparked the war which the other Gods got involved in, that was mainly fought by the Elves as well, and cracked the world - sinking half the continent of Beleriand and the rest became Middle Earth.

 

Also - Melkor had a pet spider called Ungoliant (probably another angel-type) who's sole surviving great-granddaughter was Shelob.

 

All things (except Tom Bombadil) in Lord of the Rings have their roots in the Silmarillion.

 

Which is one of the reasons Galadriel is a favourite character of mine...

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Your acquaintance is correct in that in Middle Earth it seems to be only the Istari and others of the Maia' date=' such as Sauron, who wield the traditional "spells 'n' fireballs" kind of wizardly magic we have come to expect from every Fantasy RPG, and judging by Gandalf's sparing use of his spells it is extremely draining even for them. The Maia (including the Istari) are not human, nor are they of any other mortal race. They walked the Earth even before the Elves. When Gandalf refers to other Wizards he is talking about the other Istari.[/quote']

 

 

Is it precisely draining or just looked down upon by Eru and his clan? In the struggle of the Lord of the Rings, the Viair wished for the Men to do wha they could in this struggle with as little help as possible from the Istari... Right?

 

It is plain that that is not the only kind of magic in Middle Earth, though.

 

Judging by references in both The Hobbit and LOTR the Elves have a magic all of their own. Though it does not seem to involve much in the way of hand-waving and incantations it is nonetheless powerful magic and it varies greatly from individual to individual; from Elrond's healing powers, to Galadriel's ability to touch the minds of others, to Legolas's trackless stride and his almost supernatural ability with a bow.

 

From references in The Hobbit it seems that the Dwarves can craft enchanted items of various sorts, though that seems to be the limit of their magical abilities.

 

The races is another point of distinction. It's fairly obvious that the Hobbits will still be around at the time I'm thinking of running in. What about the others, though? All the Elves but Thranduil's people have moved to the West (except maybe Elrond's Twins...). The Dwarves seem happy to hide in their lairs. (Where do the other Dwarves live? We know Moria has been scourged of Dwarves...)

 

Some humans of noble lineage possess superhuman abilities in combat and other areas' date=' and even have greatly extended lifespans, but no actual "magic" to speak of.[/quote']

 

The Dunedain. Remnants of Numenorean blood that is mostly gone with Aragorn being the last of Isildur's line. Yes, he has children with Arwen, but worrying about thir abilities in play won't likely be an issue.

 

 

The Hobbits are perhaps the least magical race of all' date=' but they do seem to possess almost supernatural stealth, and most probably (in HERO terms) a few levels of luck.[/quote']

 

Right. I'm not sure if I'll mess with Luck as a racial paradigm or not. I do think this is the best shot at PC races other than Men. Of course, you chould shift around the packages by Peoples (Rohirrim get Riding, etc).

 

Edit: P.S. On the subject of the MERP books' date=' it's plain that they "spiced up" the magic of Middle Earth to some degree to make it more attractive to roleplayers, and it does [i']not[/i] present an accurate picture of magic in Middle Earth as written about by Tolkien in his books. If you want to take this approach there is nothing to stop you from just converting MERP's idea of magic directly to HERO System.

 

P.P.S. I deliberately did not mention The Silmarillion because it is a long time since I last read it, but I cannot recall it containing anything that contradicts what I said above.

 

Thanks for your help! Just having other people bounce around ideas helps me figure out what I do or don't like. And, maybe, someone else will be interested in using stuff that comes of it!

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

There used to be Dwarfs in the Lonely Mountain as well (before Smaug in the Hobbit book). I think Gimli mentions where they are now in the council at Rivendell - he comes from an area northeast of Dale, the name of which escapes me at present.

[Fitz]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Calling Ungoliant a "pet spider" is a wee bit misleading, considering that she was powerful enough in her own right that Morgoth would make alliance with her, and powerful enough to make Morgoth back down over the terms of the alliance

 

It's never made clear just how Ungoliant came into being, or what sort of being she was. I've always assumed she was coeval with the Valar because she could contend on more or less equal terms with Melkor (Morgoth), who was described as powerful among the Valar, but it's possible she was a very powerful Maia; the line between the two races gets a bit blurred in terms of power levels. Shelob was certainly nowhere near as potent as her progenitor -- again, it's never explicitly stated how far removed she was from Ungoliant.

 

Tolkienish magic in general seems to me to be omnipresent, but not flashy. Tolkien refers many times to the innate power inherent in beings like Bombadil, Galadriel or Glorfindel, but never makes clear just how that power manifests itself. Gandalf makes mention of "spells", but whether they equate to the hocus-pocus handwaving and gibbering that most roleplayers think of as spellcasting is unclear. There are a couple of examples -- the barrow wight's chant, and Gandalf's shaft of light (lightning bolt?) aimed at the Nazgul are two; there may be more if I bend my memory that far.

 

If I were trying to replicate Middle Earth in a roleplaying sense, I'd go heavily on inherent Talents, Enhanced Senses and lots of Ancient Lore KS's, and shy away from much in the way of spellcasting as it's usually presented. Magic use would have more in common with what's normally seen as Psionics, and would certainly take time and energy and generally have little in the way of spectacular SFX.

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I agree - magic was very much "coincidental" (from Mage) or was surreptitious / invisible power effects.

It was never stated that this could be because it would attract Sauron's attention - you can imply that if you wish the world to be that way. Magic items were mainly things with enhanced effects - things that were not flashy, but just better at doing what they were supposed to.

 

It is possible that Ungoliant was extra-ardariel (extraterestrial). It's also possible Tom Bombadil was as well.

 

The Valar are the Gods of Middle Earth - all children of Illuvatar - the father-type God. Including Melkor/Morgoth. The oft quoted Gilthonial and Elbereth for the various songs and even, you could argue, the incantation to activate the Phial of Galdriel, were two of the Valar. Also note - Illuvatar made the Elves (and the Humans), but one of his children made the Dwarfs. I don't know where Ents or Hobbits came from.

 

However, powers outside of the Valar were not part of the song of creation - and therefore could make the destiny of the world quite different....

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Is it precisely draining or just looked down upon by Eru and his clan? In the struggle of the Lord of the Rings' date=' the Viair wished for the Men to do wha they could in this struggle with as little help as possible from the Istari... Right?[/quote']

 

That's very possibly a factor too, but there are several references in LOTR (the books, not really the movies) to Gandalf being very tired and weary after invoking any major magic, so I think we can conclude it is also quite draining.

 

The races is another point of distinction. It's fairly obvious that the Hobbits will still be around at the time I'm thinking of running in. What about the others' date=' though? All the Elves but Thranduil's people have moved to the West (except maybe Elrond's Twins...). The Dwarves seem happy to hide in their lairs. (Where do the other Dwarves live? We know Moria has been scourged of Dwarves...)[/quote']

 

So there are at least a few Elves. The only places I can remember being mentioned that Dwarves live off the top of my head are the Lonely Mountain and Dale. I can't remember where Dain comes to the Lonely Mountain from, but presumably it is from another Dwarf Kingdom.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

There used to be Dwarfs in the Lonely Mountain as well (before Smaug in the Hobbit book). I think Gimli mentions where they are now in the council at Rivendell - he comes from an area northeast of Dale' date=' the name of which escapes me at present.[/quote']

 

Gimli is from the Lonely Mountain itself! Remember that after the Death of Smaug and the Battle of Five Armies the Kindgom Under the Mountain is fully restored, with Dain as King. In the time of LOTR it is once again a thriving Dwarf kingdom (described in some detail to Frodo by Gimli at Rivendell).

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

The real question about Dwarves is "are there any female Dwarves?" There is a throwaway reference to female Dwarves in one of the LOTR movies, but IIRC there is not a single mention of female Dwarves in either the Silmarillion, The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. Indeed in the part of the Silmarillion in which Aulë creates the Dwarfs, it mentions only that he creates "Seven Fathers". There's no mention of any Mother(s).

 

This in turn of course begs the question that if there are no female Dwarves, how do Dwarves reproduce?

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Actually this link might answer my question, though I can't remember when and where Dis is mentioned. Presumably somewhere in The Hobbit.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/dis_1

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Calling Ungoliant a "pet spider" is a wee bit misleading, considering that she was powerful enough in her own right that Morgoth would make alliance with her, and powerful enough to make Morgoth back down over the terms of the alliance

 

It's never made clear just how Ungoliant came into being, or what sort of being she was. I've always assumed she was coeval with the Valar because she could contend on more or less equal terms with Melkor (Morgoth), who was described as powerful among the Valar, but it's possible she was a very powerful Maia; the line between the two races gets a bit blurred in terms of power levels. Shelob was certainly nowhere near as potent as her progenitor -- again, it's never explicitly stated how far removed she was from Ungoliant.

 

Tolkienish magic in general seems to me to be omnipresent, but not flashy. Tolkien refers many times to the innate power inherent in beings like Bombadil, Galadriel or Glorfindel, but never makes clear just how that power manifests itself. Gandalf makes mention of "spells", but whether they equate to the hocus-pocus handwaving and gibbering that most roleplayers think of as spellcasting is unclear. There are a couple of examples -- the barrow wight's chant, and Gandalf's shaft of light (lightning bolt?) aimed at the Nazgul are two; there may be more if I bend my memory that far.

 

If I were trying to replicate Middle Earth in a roleplaying sense, I'd go heavily on inherent Talents, Enhanced Senses and lots of Ancient Lore KS's, and shy away from much in the way of spellcasting as it's usually presented. Magic use would have more in common with what's normally seen as Psionics, and would certainly take time and energy and generally have little in the way of spectacular SFX.

 

 

If Psionics is the way to go... What game-mechanic would best be used to represent it?

 

Something to remember is that I'm running this in the Fourth Age. What sorts of things could be added/used to best represent this fact (other than history).

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

...I can't remember where Dain comes to the Lonely Mountain from' date=' but presumably it is from another Dwarf Kingdom...[/quote']

 

A little digging revealed that Dain came from the Iron Hills.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

If Psionics is the way to go... What game-mechanic would best be used to represent it?

 

Powers with very few limitations and frequently Invisible Power Effects.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

From your suggestions, I plan on having Dwarves play a larger part in my Fourth Age setting, Mark!

 

Rep to you!

 

Now, if I can just come up with some more stuff and what I'm going to do about magic.

 

Also, wouldn't it stand to reason that a new threat will eventually be born in the Fourth Age? What might it be?

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Powers with very few limitations and frequently Invisible Power Effects.

 

Thinking along these lines sort of reminded me of a lot of the more subtleties in MERP...

 

What about some stats for goblins, orcs, or Cave Trolls?

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Also' date=' wouldn't it stand to reason that a new threat will eventually be born in the Fourth Age? What might it be?[/quote']

 

There is some stuff about the Fourth Age in the Appendix to the Lord of the Rings but I can't remember much of it.

 

Men from the South (perhaps allied with orcs?) might make a viable Fourth Age threat. It's implied in the Lord of the Rings that the lands to the South are vast and contain countless hordes of men, and given that many of them allied with Sauron in LOTR it's possible that they might decide to take for themselves what they couldn't get with his help. As for the Orcs, there must have been many of Sauron's Orcs left after the War of the Ring, and it would seem natural for them to flee South and ally with the men who had fought for their Master.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Of course... There are all the orcs in Moria still, too.

 

The Ithilien is the valley between Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul. The Anduin flows southward through the center with teh ruins of Osgilitiath resting between the two fortifications/cities.

 

I'm planning on much of the danger from the South being taken care of by Forimir and the Lady in White before their subsequent deaths. I did want to create some subtle tension though, similar to the necromancer in the early Third Age. There will be those that wonder if Sauron or his ilk have somehow returned, but I'll leave it mostly in the background.

 

I'm looking towards creating a setting that could eventually hold multiple campaigns. But, I wanted the first to be near Ithilien.

[Fitz]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

If Psionics is the way to go... What game-mechanic would best be used to represent it?

 

Something to remember is that I'm running this in the Fourth Age. What sorts of things could be added/used to best represent this fact (other than history).

 

Off the cuff, I'd give any Powers Concentration for a start. There are some examples you can draw from: Saruman has a sort of Mind Control, but only while he's talking; you could instead represent it as Persuasion at a phenomenally high level. Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel are able to communicate telepathically, but this (I think) is a by-product of the fact that they each bear one of the three Elvish rings.

 

When you talk about game mechanics, I think what you need to consider are the SFX rather than the mechanics themselves.

 

As far as the 4th Age goes: there are very few elves left bar the Moriquendi (those who never went to Valinor in the 1st Age). The orcs, trolls and what-not are no longer under Sauron's control, so they will tend to be a lot more fragmented. Also, the absence of Sauron is going to create a major power vacuum, one which may well be exploited by the Southrons and Easterlings who had previously been under his thumb. Plus, what about all the refugees -- all of Sauron's slave workers? Gondor, the major Northern power, is weaker than at almost any time in its history, and it has plenty of ancestral enemies to contend with, like the Corsairs of Umbar who are also descended from Numenor. There are still some major nasties around, left-overs from Morgoth's time: the Watcher in the Water wasn't killed, for example, and Gandalf makes references to dragons still being around (though not nearly as powerful as the old dragons like Ancalagon).

 

In short: opportunity abounds! Knock yerself out!

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

There is some stuff about the Fourth Age in the Appendix to the Lord of the Rings but I can't remember much of it.

 

I've gathered that info and what there is at the Encyclopedia Arda. It is mostly just notations about what the Fellowship did and where they all died.

 

The Fourth Age should be an era of men as that is what Tolkien had in mind and I realize I have a lot of directions to go in. I was just hoping you guys could help me out.

 

And you have. I could always use more, though!

 

Thanks!

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

What about some stats for goblins' date=' orcs, or Cave Trolls?[/quote']

 

Now you're asking. Do you have The Hero System Bestiary and Monsters, Minions and Marauders? If so I'd start with the stats from those books and modify them to reflect whateve you can glean about the natures of the Middle Earth versions of these creatures. I'd really have to read the books again to make any firm suggestions beyond that.

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

The real question about Dwarves is "are there any female Dwarves?" There is a throwaway reference to female Dwarves in one of the LOTR movies, but IIRC there is not a single mention of female Dwarves in either the Silmarillion, The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. Indeed in the part of the Silmarillion in which Aulë creates the Dwarfs, it mentions only that he creates "Seven Fathers". There's no mention of any Mother(s).

 

This in turn of course begs the question that if there are no female Dwarves, how do Dwarves reproduce?

 

Much of Tolkein is taken from the myths of Europe.

 

Traditional Dwarfs were carved out of stone.

There were no female Dwarfs.

 

BTW - I don't ever remember reading about "Cave Trolls". In the books there are "Olog Hai" which are a breeding enhancement made to Trolls in the same manner as "Uruk Hai" are to normal orcs (called by the Elves "Yrch")

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Gondor' date=' the major Northern power, is weaker than at almost any time in its history, and it has plenty of ancestral enemies to contend with, like the Corsairs of Umbar who are also descended from Numenor. [/quote']

 

I'd debate that - with the return of the king to Gondor, and the appendicies in the book - Aragorn basically unites all the north - including Hobbiton and Bree and Angmar - plus he drew up new treaties with Rohan.

 

Whilst they lost a lot of people in the war of the ring - they gained much more organisation. Which counts for a lot (look at the Roman Empire)

[Fitz]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Yeah, BUT (and it's a big but) where *is* everyone in the North? Compared with the old days, it's a sparse depopulated wasteland. The Kingdom of the North is basically defunct (and has been for centuries), the ancestors of the Rohirrim are gone except for a few small settlements, and the major habitation of Men is Dale, which isn't huge. Ithilien has been depopulated. Rohan has always been lightly populated, and according to the Appendices a good number of their fighting men ended up sallying off with Eomer and Aragorn to fight off the Southrons.

 

Gondor in the 4th Age is like Britain in the 21st century -- still powerful, but a pale shadow of its old power. (The weather's bound to be better in Gondor though).

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Actually, I don't like the idea of the Fourth Age for gaming so much as the Fifth. The Fifth Age? Yes, I worked out a crude concept sketch for the Fourth Age, which is essentially the rise and the fall of the Gondorian Empire.

 

The core concept is based on the idea that Tolkein's history has a lot of repeating themes to it, or at least echoing themes. Here's my own view of how things work:

 

Zeroth Age (not a canonical naming, I know): The rise of a Golden Age within a great kingdom (Valinor) which ends with a cataclysm caused by a dark power corrupting it (Morgoth slays the Two Trees)

 

First Age: A dark power (Morgoth) threatens the races of Middle Earth. There is a great struggle to overthrow this dark power and when that happens, the Age is considered to be at an end.

 

Second Age: The rise of a Golden Age within a great kingdom (Numenor) which ends by a cataclysm caused by a dark power corrupting it (Numenor sinks due to Sauron turning the Numenoreans against the Valar)

 

Third Age: A dark power (Sauron) threatens the races of Middle Earth. There is a great struggle to overthrow this dark power and when that happens, the Age is considered to be at an end.

 

Fourth Age: The rise of a Golden Age within a great kingdom (Gondor).

 

Guess how I see the Fourth Age ending? The question is, who is the dark power that corrupts the Gondorians and causes a cataclysm?

 

The Witch-King, the Head of the Nazgul. But he's dead? Well, he wasn't exactly alive in the first place when Eowyn slew him. And remember, the other eight Rings of the Nine were consumed by Mount Doom, but the Witch-King's was left on the battlefield. Even Tolkein states in the books "He was never seen again in that age", which leaves the possibility open that he might return in another Age, save the Fourth.

 

My concept is that the Witch-King's ring eventually falls into the wrong hands, who use it as a focus for evil sorcery (possibly the Mouth of Sauron or another student of the dark arts of Morgoth) and eventually summon back the spirit of the Witch-King, who eventually overwhelms the summoner. Possibly the ring becomes a talisman that causes the spirit of the Witch-King to possess and take over whoever wears the Ring.

 

Eventually, the Gondorian Empire collapses, not unlike the sack of Rome. The Witch-King was broken but being a spirit and not truly alive, manages to restore himself after a few centuries. There's a lot of history I'm skipping for the moment, unless someone wants me to go over the fate of the last three Istari and why only Gandalf sailed back into the West and what role they played in the rise and fall of Gondor, as well as what happened to the Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits in that age.

 

The Fifth Age is the Age after Gondor, when Rohan, or the nation that traces its heritage to Rohan is probably the height of civilization at this time (Gondor being sacked and burned by barbarian tribes of the south and east). The Witch-King is a shadow of his former power, on the other hand, most of the great powers of Middle Earth are gone. The most powerful of the Elves are dead or fled to the West, the Dunedain are a shadow of their former selves, but still, Men thrive.