Fourth Age Hero

[tkdguy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Here's something I stumbled upon while searching on answers.com (thanks again for the link, Curufea!).

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Alright. New issue. First off, it looks like this Thursday's game is being postponed due to a death in the family of one of the players. My condolences to the Bird's.

 

My question... What sort of situation do you think the Emyn Arnen would be in during my era of the 4th Age? Would the Ithilien be used for growing crops now? Previously, it had always been a 'Summer' house area for Gondorian Nobility. Now though, in the age of starvation and under-population, a fertile valley like the Anduin would be a great place to grow crops.

 

Following that logic, what would the "Keep' of an Ithilien Noble be like in Emyn Arnen.

[tkdguy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Some background info on the regeion: http://www.answers.com/Emyn%20Arnen

 

As for how it's like during the Fourth Age, I'd make it like Florence during the Renaissance in outlook

 

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2049&dekey=renaissance&gwp=8&curtab=2049_1

 

http://www.answers.com/Florence

 

BTW, condolences to your player.

[tkdguy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I almost forgot: TheQuestionMan has a good compilation of resources.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31525

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Some background info on the regeion: http://www.answers.com/Emyn%20Arnen

 

As for how it's like during the Fourth Age, I'd make it like Florence during the Renaissance in outlook

 

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2049&dekey=renaissance&gwp=8&curtab=2049_1

 

http://www.answers.com/Florence

 

BTW, condolences to your player.

 

Thanks for your help, but I'm still at a loss. I've already established that a noble resides here in Emyn Arnen. What sort of 'manor/keep' would he have? I'd like it to sort of follow along with Gondorian architecture, but still have something of its own.

 

I also realize I was relating the Anduin river valley to the Mississippi River Valley as that is what I'm most familiar with. Even with your ANSWER.com links, I still don't really know what it would be like in Emyn Arnen. Would it be rather steep hills and rocky land with greenish moss 'Ireland'? Or more like Florence, but I'd need something solid to relate to Florence to hep paint that picture.

 

I'd also expect foritifications throughout Emyn Arnen as it is sort of the doorway into Eastern Gondor and Rohan North of that. Even with Elleasar's Great Host, the Umbar and Haradrim may hunger to crack open the ripe nut to the North...

[Markdoc]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

My take is that Emyn Arnen is a hilly, craggy sort of place which is why it remained forested even though it was right on the doorstep of Osgiliath.

 

Reasoning?

 

#1 Emyn means "hills" or "range"

#2 the description in LOTR use words like craggy and Faramir's hideout is in what sounds like a very large hill/small mountain.

 

My mental picture (and it could be wrong) is that where the Anduin runs between the mountains it has carved a path along the edge of the hills. The flat lands which serve up most of Gondor's fields are on the Minas tirith side of the river, running north towards Rohan and south along the coast.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

The real question about Dwarves is "are there any female Dwarves?" There is a throwaway reference to female Dwarves in one of the LOTR movies, but IIRC there is not a single mention of female Dwarves in either the Silmarillion, The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. Indeed in the part of the Silmarillion in which Aulë creates the Dwarfs, it mentions only that he creates "Seven Fathers". There's no mention of any Mother(s).

 

This in turn of course begs the question that if there are no female Dwarves, how do Dwarves reproduce?

 

The names of several of the dwarves in the Hobbit are taken directly from norse mythology, which has no female dwarves, if I remember correctly (freya is depicted as seducing them in exchange for their crafts, though).

 

Since Tolkein used those mythos and the Anglo-Saxon chronicles as his muse for the LOTR I think it would be reasonable to infer that there are no female dwarves. At the same time, since Tolkein doesn't see fit to comment, one is left to draw one's own conclusions.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

And, to further address Markdoc's thoughts:

 

Arnen means 'High'. Emyn Arnen roughly translates as High Hills.

 

The few locations that Emyn Aren is detailed are conflicting. Where are these detailings?

 

HurinI came from Emyn Arnen. (Whew. That's not much, is it?)

Gondor had a hidden outpost known as Henneth Annun - This is the conflict. I have maps that place Henneth Annun in the Ephel Duath, not Emyn Arnen. Peter Jackson seems to have placed it elsewhere as well. Which is Canon?

 

Why would Sam and Frodo went all the way down to the Emen Arnen? It is well south of Osgiliath and LONG way from the Black Gate... They went SOUTH of Cirith Ungol to get captured by Faramir? That doesn't make any sense...

 

Anybody have any ideas?

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

The names of several of the dwarves in the Hobbit are taken directly from norse mythology, which has no female dwarves, if I remember correctly (freya is depicted as seducing them in exchange for their crafts, though).

 

Since Tolkein used those mythos and the Anglo-Saxon chronicles as his muse for the LOTR I think it would be reasonable to infer that there are no female dwarves. At the same time, since Tolkein doesn't see fit to comment, one is left to draw one's own conclusions.

 

Do you have any conclusions, Von D-Man? One of the PCs is a Dwarf and it might be interesting to mine for background details. I've sort of swept over the subject thus far.

[tkdguy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Actually, there is one female Dwarf mentioned by Tolkien; she goes by the name of Dis. I don't remember the source, but I'll look it up (I suspect it's in the Appendices after ROTK). Tolkien wrote that female Dwaves were very similar to males, which I think is how the debate about whether female Dwarves have beards started.

 

As for Emyn Arnen, the map of Middle Earth shows a lot of hills in the region, especially to the north. I have an ICE sourcebook about Minal Ithil, so the following information about Ithilien is taken from that work.

 

The terrain is described as having rugged foothills, and the Ephel Duath rise in the east. The soil is rich because of the ash from Mordor, and the rocks are mostly igneous, granite, and basalt. Marble canbe found in the foothills. The highlands are in a mild temperatezone. The Ephel Duath catch the winds from the Anduin. Rain flows downhill to the Anduin Valley, so the lands are richer there. Emyn Arnen looks like it's in a valley, so the lands would be more fertile than in the hills. Since Faramir made it his capital, it would make sense that he'd choose a fertile, balmy area.

 

Agriculture isn't very prevalent near that ares, although I suspect it's a bit more widespead in the lowlands. Husbandry is the main source of food, with a few plants such as potatos and radishes. The book says that Gondorian nobles use Ithilien as a hunting resort.

 

As for architecture, I'm not sure what Gondorian architecture looks like. It may be based on Greco-Roman architecture, but this is a wild guess. It has probably been modernized a bit. I also guess that Faramir would probably have built a castle (or at least a fortified palace) for defense and to show his status.

[tkdguy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Here's another wild idea (I guess that extra coffee has made me hyperactive). Since you're baisng the Anduin River on the Mississippi River, I checked my atlas. The closest parallel I could find was Tenessee, since it's bordered by the Mississippi River to the west and the Appalachian Mountains to the east. I see minor rivers and lakes in addition to hills. Keep in mind I've never been to the area, so I'm sure anyone familiar with the region will correct me.

 

Of course, looking at the map of Tenessee, it looks to my untrained eye that our counterpart of Emyn Arnen is Nashville.

[Vondy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I kind of like the notion that dwarves are all male and their equivalent of a priesthood forges new dwarves from the earth and stone using ancient fell magics unknown to men.

 

I think it would be simpler, however, to have female dwarves (and I've never cared for the notion that female dwarves would look just like the men). In one of my games I developed the following outline for dwarvish society:

 

The male to female ratio among the dwarves is 3-1 or 4-1

Only 1-2% of male dwarves are fertile, the rest are sterile

Fertile males serve as a quasi-priestly class who may not go to war

One fertile male from a clan is selected by the females to be the clans sacral king

The other fertile males form a council for ritual matters and settling disputes

The female dwarves form the clans hearth

The hearth is a collective wife for the clan (significant social power there)

The hearth controls the clans wealth, though theoretically the king reigns supreme

Upon reaching maturity fertile males and young females are often swapped between clans

[tkdguy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I found the article about Dwarf women (ROTK Appendix A, Part III). According to Gimli the women number at most a third of the dwarf population, and they are so similar to the men in voice and appearance (and dress like the men when they go abroad) that people often think there are no dwarf women. Dwarves are monogamous and never remarry, but many dwarves, both men and women choose not to marry.

 

In LOTR, the story about dwarves carving their own race from stone is a myth conceived by other races, but it actually does have mythical origins.

 

Also, in Castle Falkenstein, there are no dwarf women. However, they marry nymphs and High Faerie women. Their sons are dwarfs, and their daughters are whatever faerie species the mothers are. Unfortunately, naming the children is the mother's prerogative, so it's not uncommon to have a burly, ill-tempered dwarf mechanic named Daffodil!

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Here's another wild idea (I guess that extra coffee has made me hyperactive). Since you're baisng the Anduin River on the Mississippi River, I checked my atlas. The closest parallel I could find was Tenessee, since it's bordered by the Mississippi River to the west and the Appalachian Mountains to the east. I see minor rivers and lakes in addition to hills. Keep in mind I've never been to the area, so I'm sure anyone familiar with the region will correct me.

 

Of course, looking at the map of Tenessee, it looks to my untrained eye that our counterpart of Emyn Arnen is Nashville.

 

I'm not sure I'm basing it off of Mississippi, or not. That is my relative PoV as the only large river valley I'm familiar with. But, I'm not so sure there is a big difference between the Tennessee area and Florence, is there? Whenever I cross the Appalachians in Tennessee I always consider them Little Mountains, or "High Hills".

 

Thanks a bundle for the perception check. It has really helped. You could hide quite a few fortresses in that little stretch of hills among Mountains...

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

We've acheived full cirlce for the Dwarves, I believe. This time around, you guys have actually tossed out some Simulationist numbers. For that, I thank you kindly!

 

I still haven't decided how my 4th Age game will deal with dwarven children, though... Putting it off until I deal with Emyn Arnen, Franjeck's Estate, MOOD and THEME, and what power level my NPCs should be to confer the challenge level I'm looking for.

 

Goodness, do I sound like a neophyte, or what?

[Savinien]

MERP Military Rankings

 

Okay, I know we haven't decided much about the actual architecture of Gondorian Noble 'Keeps' within the Emyn Arnen (though I wish someone would help me with the 'design' of the building). Would it be a Keep with a wall? If so, what else is behind the wall?

 

My new question deals with Gondorian Army and how the Ithilien 'feifdom' (for lack of a better word), fits within. What would the various types of military factions be in the Fourth Age in Eastern Gondor?

 

What sort of ranking heirarchy would they use?

[Vondy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Based on the architecture described in the books a keep with a wall is not out of the question. Terrain will have a lot to do with this, however. A naked keep on an earthwork with a moat (and a low pallisade at the rim of the earthwork), or built on a craggy river island might also work. I ran across a cool sight* that might help, though most of the caste's on it are from the high middle ages:

 

http://12.223.136.182/index.htm

 

*I know, I know: its a lego castle site, but the guy has researched the castles he made models of and used maps and drawings of them that can be accessed on the site.

 

That is something you want to consider, though. Middle Earth seems like the high bronze age, early iron age, but with a few anachronisms. What level of castle tech do you want?

[Markdoc]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

My take - and it's purely mine, I don't know of direct descriptions - is that Gondoran archictecture is Renaissance level.

 

They bridge a large river between a mile and half a mile wide, build underground fortresses of some sophistication, build very large fortified cities, which apparently don't stink (meaning they have sewers and organised garbage collection, plus road workers) and they have plenty of descriptions of "high towers".

 

So the sort of visons I have are of late medieval/early renaissance French castles like Chinon or Blandy les Tours, which match the "white" and "tall" descriptions but are still fortresses.

 

And yes, I know that doesn't match the tech level in other ways (ubiquitous use of mail armour, for example). I don't think Tolkien was looking at tech particularly.

 

cheers, Mark

[tkdguy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Here's a useful resource. It doesn't have very much about Emyn Arnen, though.

 

The Encyclopedia of Arda

[Skouser]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Hey Savinien, I have run some Campaigns in Middle Earth recently, though using the old Rolemaster system, but had to stop due to work.

 

Here is the ultimate source for material for an ME campaign: http://www.merp.com. Join the site and then go to the downloads section. It has uh, every single out of print old ICE MERP product in PDF form. That's countries, cities, maps (beautiful Ron Fenlon ones), dungeons, everything...

 

Go nuts.

 

I had started a 4th age game that was going to send the PC's down to Harad and then even farther south. No need to worry about affecting the tolkien 'Canon' with hijinks down there either. Super high powered bad guys in the jungles of the far south of Middle Earth. Check out the module: Court of Ardor.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Awesome links and suggestions, guys!

 

Thanks!!!

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

We finally played the 2nd session of this campaign. It only took 5 months!

 

I felt like this went a lot better. I still didn't feel 'well-prepared' before the session started, but we forged ahead anyway.

 

I named Lord Franjeck's Keep Garnor Pyltrow, but haven't decided what it means or what language it is.

 

I think I'll post up a write-up of the campaign so far and then ask some questions about where you guys think the story should go.

 

We're planning on playing again in two weeks!

[Phil]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

From references in The Hobbit it seems that the Dwarves can craft enchanted items of various sorts' date=' though that seems to be the limit of their magical abilities.[/quote']

They cast spells of warding over the troll treasure in the Hobbit.

 

Some humans of noble lineage possess superhuman abilities in combat and other areas, and even have greatly extended lifespans, but no actual "magic" to speak of.

Not true. Humans of Half-elven descent may inherit some elven abilities (to quote Galadriel, ""For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe, though I do not understand clearly what they mean..."). They have no superhuman abilities in combat, they're just heroes. As per any semi-mythological setting.

[Phil]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

A note on wizards - they aren't human. They're Istari or Miai (sp?) - basically Angels for the pantheon.

Technically not angels nor strictly maiar. The whole point was that the Istari had to take mortal form and thus be denied the full extent of their power, falling back on wisdom, judgement and advice to move the people of middle earth whilst getting around the valar's promise never to interfere in things. Again! Thus, Gandalf was able to be killed (sent back by the valar. no interfering, remember?!), although the suggestion is that on his return he was either in his full maiar form or certainly nearer to it.

[Phil]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

If I were trying to replicate Middle Earth in a roleplaying sense, I'd go heavily on inherent Talents, Enhanced Senses and lots of Ancient Lore KS's, and shy away from much in the way of spellcasting as it's usually presented. Magic use would have more in common with what's normally seen as Psionics, and would certainly take time and energy and generally have little in the way of spectacular SFX.

 

I'm currently creating a First age game and I'm ignoring magic entirely. While omnipresent, it's largely a background to things that take place and rpg-style magic use is notable by its rarity. Tolkien simply doesnt write enough to define a magic 'system' as such, and personally I think it's foolish to try. Leave magic to the likes of Fingolfin, Luthien, Gandalf and the Witch King, and everyone else just get on with hitting things with swords.