Fourth Age Hero

[Markdoc]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

In D&D terms, Gandalf is a buff mage if I ever saw one. He uses his magic to enhance his physical combat capabilities and defenses rather than throwing fireballs around. I have played a few in my day. I would have to say that he would have to be of fairly high level to be able to battle a Balrog by himself. I have never seen a 2nd or 3rd level D&D mage ever take on such a monster and survive. Just because Gandalf didn't cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter, does not necessary mean he can't.

 

 

Well that's kinda the point. Gandalf's buff, no doubt about it. But he's clearly not a mage in the DnD lotsa spells way. No second level mage is going to go toe to toe with a Balrog - well, not for more than one combat round anyway

 

But all of these high level types - Gandalf, Sauron, the Witch king himself, Morgoth, all the various Noldor princes, uncle Tom Cobbly an' all - they've all got powers. They can all make or do clearly magical stuff. Gandalf has this "annoying old guy who knows a lot of the plot" power for example - he can tell when things are happening at a distance and make a good guess at the future. He can cast a few low power spells: light, hold portal, "set fire to pine cones", etc. Aragorn can heal. Luthien can cast a sleep spell by singing. But when it comes down to fighting enemies, their approach - one and all - is to hit them with a pointy piece of metal.

 

I doubt very much that it's the metal "giving their magic something to work on" - Gandalf drops his sword (probably didn't want to spoil the finish) and does in the Balrog with his bare hands. Several other powerful characters resort to wrestling their foes too - that's how Morgoth was brought down.

 

This is hard to model - Tolkein was probably thinking about spiritual combat, since I see no indication Gandalf has 80 STR and if he had 30 resistant PD he wouldn't be fussed by a bunch of orcs. Given that he was a) well known as a wizard and perfectly willing to cast magic and C) happy to kill evil creatures like orcs or balrogs when they got in his way, I can't see him having much compunction about zapping them - if he could.

 

Morgoth was certainly under no compunction about not using magic or fighting fair - but he's also in the "hit it with a mace" camp when it comes to combat.

 

cheers, Mark

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Well that's kinda the point. Gandalf's buff, no doubt about it. But he's clearly not a mage in the DnD lotsa spells way. No second level mage is going to go toe to toe with a Balrog - well, not for more than one combat round anyway

 

But all of these high level types - Gandalf, Sauron, the Witch king himself, Morgoth, all the various Noldor princes, uncle Tom Cobbly an' all - they've all got powers. They can all make or do clearly magical stuff. Gandalf has this "annoying old guy who knows a lot of the plot" power for example - he can tell when things are happening at a distance and make a good guess at the future. He can cast a few low power spells: light, hold portal, "set fire to pine cones", etc. Aragorn can heal. Luthien can cast a sleep spell by singing. But when it comes down to fighting enemies, their approach - one and all - is to hit them with a pointy piece of metal.

 

I doubt very much that it's the metal "giving their magic something to work on" - Gandalf drops his sword (probably didn't want to spoil the finish) and does in the Balrog with his bare hands. Several other powerful characters resort to wrestling their foes too - that's how Morgoth was brought down.

 

This is hard to model - Tolkein was probably thinking about spiritual combat, since I see no indication Gandalf has 80 STR and if he had 30 resistant PD he wouldn't be fussed by a bunch of orcs. Given that he was a) well known as a wizard and perfectly willing to cast magic and C) happy to kill evil creatures like orcs or balrogs when they got in his way, I can't see him having much compunction about zapping them - if he could.

 

Morgoth was certainly under no compunction about not using magic or fighting fair - but he's also in the "hit it with a mace" camp when it comes to combat.

 

cheers, Mark

 

So, what does all this mean in character building guidelines? (Or world building for that matter!)

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

So' date=' what does all this mean in character building guidelines? (Or world building for that matter!)[/quote']

 

 

It all means zip, we are all just digressing.

 

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

It all means zip, we are all just digressing.

 

 

That's weak. I'm on an agenda here...

[tkdguy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

This has nothing to do with magic; it's actually a science project. But you may find this useful, especially the maps.

 

http://sun.menloschool.org/~dspence/arda/

 

Edit: This website isn't quite complete. Either the class is ongoing, or the project was discontinued. Still, you may find the map to your liking.

[Merlin273]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

The Valar are the Gods of Middle Earth - all children of Illuvatar - the father-type God. Including Melkor/Morgoth. The oft quoted Gilthonial and Elbereth for the various songs and even, you could argue, the incantation to activate the Phial of Galdriel, were two of the Valar. Also note - Illuvatar made the Elves (and the Humans), but one of his children made the Dwarfs. I don't know where Ents or Hobbits came from.

QUOTE]

 

I agree. Eru is the One God; the Creator of All Things, the Singer of the Song of Arda. Therefore, I'd make him a Greater God (or Power, by D&D standards) . I'd say that the Valar are Intermediate Powers, and the Maiar are Lesser Powers (servants).

 

Or, in 'Angel'-terms...Eru is the One, the Creator. The Valar are Greater angels, like Michael, Gabriel, etc., and the Maiar are like the Nephilim: angels that walk in the World of Men.

[Outsider]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

The Valar are the Gods of Middle Earth - all children of Illuvatar - the father-type God. Including Melkor/Morgoth. The oft quoted Gilthonial and Elbereth for the various songs and even, you could argue, the incantation to activate the Phial of Galdriel, were two of the Valar. Also note - Illuvatar made the Elves (and the Humans), but one of his children made the Dwarfs. I don't know where Ents or Hobbits came from.

 

Just to clarify...

Illuvatar made, in full, The Valar, The Maiar, Elves, Men. And Ents, though the way their origin story was written in the Silmarillion (of Aule and Yavanna) doesnt make it clear if they were part of the plan from the outset, or if Illuvatar used his omnipotence to add them to the plan all along after the fact. Hobbits are, I think, a variety of Men. Not mentioned in the Silmarillion at all, actually.

 

Dwarves, on the other hand, came about this way :

 

Aule of the Valar made Dwarves, but it was beyond his authority to do so, and beyond his power to breathe souls into them such that they were mroe than mere automatons. When found out he apologized for exceeding his authority, explained that he greatly desired the coming of elves and men that he might have things other than what he was to love and to teach, and thus tried to make some as he understood the plan. And, though he loved his creations, they were not within his authority to create, so he moved to destroy them. Illuvatar, though, was compassionate, accepted the sincerity of his apology, and granted the Dwarves souls. But required that they be lain into a sleep, not to awaken until after the Elves, the planned firstborn children, had come to be. Thus, which race is 'eldest' is a bit of a point of contention between Dwarves an Elves.

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Thus' date=' which race is 'eldest' is a bit of a point of contention between Dwarves an Elves.[/quote']

 

That - and the Elves scribbling insults all over one their doors to their greatest underground city

Calling it "The Black Abyss" and all...

[tkdguy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

My interpretation is that the Dwarves' bodies were made first, but the Elves were given life first; thus, they are the Firstborn.

 

I vaguely remember reading about the Elves having been created already, but their bodies were still asleep. Either that or an Elf found the race of Men in that state.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

So' date=' what does all this mean in character building guidelines? (Or world building for that matter!)[/quote']

 

Well for me it means that spellcasters of the "Fazoom! That's 20 dead orcs" kind don't exist.

 

Those races with "magical powers" get some limited talents and actual sorcerer types (who are referred to) get to make magic items (swords that detect orcs and are really sharp, that kinda stuff.)

 

Since these items are clearly independant, that means players have to give away their precious XP.s to make stuff. Second, none of the items except the legendary rings seem to have great powers - and even their power was relatively low key. So I'd be inclined to place a lot of powers on a restricted list - no teleport, no flight, no energy blast, etc.

 

That should keep magic use under control and lead to a more Tolkien-y feeling.

 

cheers, Mark

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Sorry all, after a discussion last night. I'm reviving my plans for this game. Since this was before Valdorian Age came out, what do you all think about Sorecery being used in the Fourth Age?

[DrTemp]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Sorry all' date=' after a discussion last night. I'm reviving my plans for this game. Since this was before Valdorian Age came out, what do you all think about Sorecery being used in the Fourth Age?[/quote']

 

That could work, in a way, but of course, you'd have to devise supernatural beings of some kind for the opposing sides.

 

From the background, however, this does not seem to be how Tolkien's magic works. Most of the time, Tolkien's magic seems to be either actual technology or simple low-power-spells.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

That could work, in a way, but of course, you'd have to devise supernatural beings of some kind for the opposing sides.

 

From the background, however, this does not seem to be how Tolkien's magic works. Most of the time, Tolkien's magic seems to be either actual technology or simple low-power-spells.

 

Right. I know it isn't the way the magic worked in the past, but this is a New Age. An Age of men and a progressingly advancing withdrawl of things supernatural. I was sort of thinking the Evil That Is might have come up with a new method of 'tempting' humanity.

 

I haven't read anything yet, I was hoping to get some input from the masses. And, those more enlightened than myself. Besides, why not have some discussion?

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

So... We may actually have a game tomorrow night. We're planning on playing this and I've been searching for maps/pics/ideas concerning Osgiliath.

 

I am setting the game a few hundred years into the 4th Age. The Great Host has long since returned and it is now time to turn noble eyes inward. Osgilith was rebuilt, but never to its previous splendor before the Kin-Strife. Now, EllesarII (an old man now) has called in old markers and requested the Masons of the Glittering Caves to help rebuild Osgiliath.

 

The plot hooks I'm currently working on deal with political upheaval against the Return of the King. There are those that feel DenethorII was treated unfairly and even though Faramir was given the Ithilien feifdome, it is not enough. An insurgent group wants to put the Steward of Gondor once more in power. They have found some pockets of Old Gondor beneath some higher land on the Eastern Bank (a manor house has survived intact. They are using it as their HQ).

 

The Palantir Stone was lost in the Anduin a long time ago. What if something of the evil of Sauron survived within the Palantir? This being the largest and assumingly most powerful. His treachery and the danger of unrest have finally brought Evil back once more into the world.

 

So, I'm looking for maps of Osgiliath. Anyone help?

[Markdoc]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

So' date=' I'm looking for maps of Osgiliath. Anyone help?[/quote']

 

Here you go. (Courtesy of theonering.net)

 

cheers, Mark

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Awesome! Incredible! Can't Say Enough Good Things!!!

[Savinien]

I've got a story!

 

I have two characters, as I've mentioned briefly. One, is a young dwarf from the Glittering Caves. He's a mason and accompanied a small group that was enlisted by Ellasr II. Since the cleansing of Ellasar's father and Faramir is finished, it is time for the rebuilding Elasar always wanted to do. The dwarves are here to help with the reconstruction of Osgiliath and the deconstruction of Minas Morgul.

 

Durmak son of Gramdal of the Glittering Caves is young. The other dwarves are not happy about his accompanying him, but he has recently 'come of age'. His choices are his own, but they don't have to like it.

 

Mortilmir is a distant cousin of Barahir III, Prince of Ithilien. He's only recently reached the age of manhood. He's been trained well in the arts of war and has recently attained Corporal of Osgiliath Militia. He's too green for command and the other noble officers snub him while the commisioned men don't yet trust him. He needs to prove himself somehow.

 

A minor house of South Ithilien, along the south-eastern edge of Emyn Arnen has called in a favor. The Lord there, Franjek, had just enough pull to get Berethor III to send a dwarven engineer to help with his wife's anniversary present. The dwarves send Durmak and Mortilmir is his guide, with a couple cavarly soldiers.

 

Unknown to any of them... The Sons of Denethor have long thought Elesar was not the rightful King. His eyes were everywhere but on Gondor itself. They hope to stage a coups and put Barahir on the throne. Since, he seems unswayable, assassinating him and putting a puppet on the throne may be the better method.

 

They've coerced Lord Franjek (who may or may not be involved in the plot) that a dwarf was needed for the Garden. Pulling strings and manipulating, they got Mortilmir to be involved. They kidnap both for ransom (or something else).

 

Anyway, I'm bringing the story out into the 'wilds' of Emyn Arnen. I'm thinking of involving the Hall of Hurin and some hidden something or other as they attempt to escape and learn of the plot vs. Elesar. I'll continue with the plotting and eventually drop the man behind it all... A Black Numenorean sorcerer that attempts to resurrect the Witch-King of Angmar (a la Mutant for Hire's plotting above).

 

Thoughts?

[Savinien]

Re: I've got a story!

 

Osgiliath:

 

Using the map so kindly displayed by Marcdoc, what do you think everything is? It seems to be in a slightly different position than I've seen on any other maps. The river Anduin is barely over half a mile wide and most description put it at a mile. I don't see the Dome of Stars, either. Further, it shows Osgilitiath incorporating the River Morgulduin...

 

What do you all think of that?

 

[More later]

[tkdguy]

Re: I've got a story!

 

It sounds like a really interesting campaign, Savinien. Here are a couple of ideas you may find useful:

 

Read or reread Machiaveilli's work The Prince. It has a few thoughts on taking power and holding on to it.

 

Also, as many years have passed since the War of the Ring, how about raising the technology level a bit? In stead of a medieval society, Gondor is in the early stages of the Renaissance (although it can be argued that Aragorn/Elessar could have brought that about). Primitive firearms and cannons will be available to the military. And while the army still uses broadswords, civilians will fight with rapiers.

[Savinien]

Re: I've got a story!

 

Hmmm... That isn't a bad idea...

 

We started the game last night, though and I haven't mentioned anything like this. I could have a new danger coming with that sort of thing. Perhaps Easterlings or the Haradrim were the first to learn such things. A new raiding technique first seen in Southern Ithilien leading to the group having to board the ship and steal the tech?

 

Thanks tkdguy! More food for thought!

[Outsider]

Re: I've got a story!

 

I wouldnt change the tech in Middle Earth to include gunpowder as a thing known to and used by men, except perhaps by wizards on special occasions or in special circumstances.

 

Widespread use among men would be against the genre as much as adding steam power, factories, or any of the other trappings of the modern age.

[Savinien]

Re: I've got a story!

 

I wouldnt change the tech in Middle Earth to include gunpowder as a thing known to and used by men, except perhaps by wizards on special occasions or in special circumstances.

 

Widespread use among men would be against the genre as much as adding steam power, factories, or any of the other trappings of the modern age.

 

It depends on what you were trying to do. Presumably, Middle Earth's tech level would eventually change. I'm expecting that for later ages, though I wouldn't write out the possibility in late Fourth Age.

 

But, that's an altogether different story.

[Outsider]

Re: I've got a story!

 

It might, but then, it might not.

 

The 2nd and 3rd Ages were about 6500 years total, and the tech didnt really change at all, except to degrade, perhaps.

[tkdguy]

Re: I've got a story!

 

However, the significance of the War of the Ring is that it signalled the end of the mythical era and the beginning of the historic era. And since the Wizards knew about gunpowder, perhaps that knowledge survived or was recently discovered. I wouldn't put any steam tech, but there were mills built in the Shire under Saruman's reign, so a few technological may not be totally out of order.

 

Keep in mind I'm just throwing out these suggestions to give a twist on how Middle Earth would be like after the Third Age. It's meant for flavor, so GMs can put their own spin on it or disregard it completely according to their tastes.

[Savinien]

Re: I've got a story!

 

Understood, and I thank you for that.

 

Outsider, your opinion is important and I can see the PoV of trying to keep to a particular tech level within the subject matter. As I'm pushing well past almost anything ever represented by "Canon", I can easily see where differing opinions will exist.

 

I am using Radagast's Browbacks as a sort of Druidic Order from the East. I haven't decided what they're capable of game mechanically but, they're known as 'sorcerer's up to this point. That could either be their enigmatic hooded cloaks, or something else entirely.

 

I'm also going with SOME magic remeniscent of what existed in the books. Game-mechanically, I haven't decided what that is either. Whheee. At the rate the first session went, I won't have to worry about it for a few months, still.