Fourth Age Hero

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

An interesting tidbit from that link: "Later, the resurrected Gandalf threw Saruman out of the Order of the Istari. Saruman fled to the Shire where he became a petty lordling called Sharkey (after the orcish Sharku, "old man"). He was slain by an uprising of hobbits led by the returning Merry and Pippin, and his spirit was refused entry into Aman by the Valar."

 

So it's possible that he could return as other Maiar did after being "slain" (Gandalf, Sauron), and if a GM were to go with the many-smaller-bad-guys campaign I tossed out earlier, Sharkey could be one of them.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I'm pretty sure, CO, that if you keep reading, Grimma Wormtongue ended up strangling old Sharkey during the Scouring of the Shire.

 

Still, it is an interesting tidbit.

 

On other fronts, I've got a player building a Dwarf for this game. He'll likely be part of Gimli's Glittering Caves colony.

 

I'd also like to get back to the idea of 'young' Dwarves an how Dwarves are brought into Arda. Are they carved from stone?

 

Grown in a deep cave like mushrooms?

 

Or, is every Dwarf mom, the wondrously bearded woman?

[Outsider]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I believe that The Hobbit states that Fili and Kili are the sons of Thorin's sister, which establishes, in canon, that there are dwarven women.

 

So why dont we ever see any?

 

1) They look and sound much like the dwarven men. (supported by the film)

2) Dwarven society keeps them close, so they are basically never seen outside dwarven keeps.

3) They are very rare. Perhaps dwarven biology results in most children being male, so, odds are much better that any dwarf one encounters will be male.

 

Or if could be a combination of all three.

 

Given their extended lifespans (as compared to a human) and their race's much touted sturdiness, even a small percentage of the dwarven population being female could keep up their numbers.

 

Human women are fertile from puberty to menopause, a period of about 30 years, without help/hindrance from science. Factoring in miscarriages, stillbirths, infant mortality, and birthing deaths among the mothers, overall human fecundity per woman might be about 6 per.

 

Dwarven women, on the other hand, might have 100 or more years of fertility, and much lower rates of miscarriage, stillbirth, infant mortality, or dying during childbirth. Overall dwarven fecundity per woman might be more like 30 per, or even more.

 

The question then becomes, why isnt the world teeming with dwarves?

[APE]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

If I remember my hobit corectly Dworven women were said to be very biutiful

and always wore vales when above ground. As Bilbo was leving the lonly mountian they came out to sing goodby wich was considerd a singular honor.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I believe that The Hobbit states that Fili and Kili are the sons of Thorin's sister, which establishes, in canon, that there are dwarven women.

 

So why dont we ever see any?

 

1) They look and sound much like the dwarven men. (supported by the film)

2) Dwarven society keeps them close, so they are basically never seen outside dwarven keeps.

3) They are very rare. Perhaps dwarven biology results in most children being male, so, odds are much better that any dwarf one encounters will be male.

 

Or if could be a combination of all three.

 

Given their extended lifespans (as compared to a human) and their race's much touted sturdiness, even a small percentage of the dwarven population being female could keep up their numbers.

 

Human women are fertile from puberty to menopause, a period of about 30 years, without help/hindrance from science. Factoring in miscarriages, stillbirths, infant mortality, and birthing deaths among the mothers, overall human fecundity per woman might be about 6 per.

 

Dwarven women, on the other hand, might have 100 or more years of fertility, and much lower rates of miscarriage, stillbirth, infant mortality, or dying during childbirth. Overall dwarven fecundity per woman might be more like 30 per, or even more.

 

The question then becomes, why isnt the world teeming with dwarves?

 

 

SWEET!

 

What if the years of fertility for dwarven women is NOT similar to humanity in that respect. There is also the possibility of slow maturement of the fetus and newborn. Instead of a nine month period... It may take a few years!

 

Wouldn't that be awful!

 

"Thorin! I need peanut-butter and pickles... Now!" For two years!

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

UGH!

 

A longer development time might imply a slower development, though, so there would be less need for strong cravings to get whatever specific nourishment the mother and fetus need. I would hope, then, for the dwarf-men's sakes, that it would be more like "Thorin! I really want peanut butter and pickles today or tomorrow!"

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I'm pretty sure, CO, that if you keep reading, Grimma Wormtongue ended up strangling old Sharkey during the Scouring of the Shire.

 

Still, it is an interesting tidbit.

 

 

Yeah, BUT Gandalf was killed by a Balrog, and Sauron was drowned when Numenor sank. There's nothing stopping Saruman/Sharkey from returning for the Fourth Age.

[Fitz]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Regarding Dwarf women: Tolkien deals with the matter briefly, either in one of the LOTR Appendices or in one of the books published post-mortem by his son. he said that they were few, compared with the males, and that furthermore being as stubborn as their men, often if they couldn't have the male they wanted they would have none at all, so that the rate of marriage and procreation was even lower than the gender imbalance would suggest. It's there that the line Gimli uses in the film about the women being "so alike in voice and appearance, that the rumour arose that there were no dwarf women" was written.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Regarding Dwarf women: Tolkien deals with the matter briefly' date=' either in one of the LOTR Appendices or in one of the books published post-mortem by his son. he said that they were few, compared with the males, and that furthermore being as stubborn as their men, often if they couldn't have the male they wanted they would have none at all, so that the rate of marriage and procreation was even lower than the gender imbalance would suggest. It's there that the line Gimli uses in the film about the women being "so alike in voice and appearance, that the rumour arose that there were no dwarf women" was written.[/quote']

 

Ah-ha!

 

Thanks, Fitz.

 

I'm not sure why, but I usually steer clear of 'women-stuff' during my gaming anyway.

[Fitz]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

It's been some time since I've read LOTR' date=' but I'm pretty sure there was a pretty strict distinction between Uruk-hai and the sort of rabble bred in Mordor. It would stand to reason that Olog-hai were somewhat better than regular trolls, as well.[/quote']

 

From the man himself, in Appendix F:

"Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word Urûk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Urûk-hai, snaga 'slave'"

 

and

 

"Troll has been used to translate the Sindarin Torog ....... at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master : a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dur."

 

So, you're right that the Olog-hai were genetically-engineered uber-trolls. The Uruk-hai look to me to be less a separate genus from orcdom in general, and more like the difference between, say, an elite regiment of infantry and a conscript or penal regiment: they're going to get better equipment, better training, better food and so forth, and thus be more effective fighters.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun' date=' so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dur."[/quote']

 

Soo... To extrapolate... Can Olog-hai no longer bear the shine of the sun without turning to stone? Or, does the will of Sauron still hold sway? I wouldn't think so only a century into the Fourth Age...

[Fitz]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I'd guess, reading between the lines, that they had more in common with orcs in that respect; although they hate the sunlight, they'll endure it as long as they're forced to (by Sauron, or anyone else powerful enough to dominate them). I don't think, from the way that they're described, that sunlight is actually fatal to them, as it was to the older Torog, but they'd certainly avoid it if they possibly could. They'd probably also have an aversion to any bright light.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

From the man himself, in Appendix F:

"Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word Urûk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Urûk-hai, snaga 'slave'"

 

 

 

It seems to me that this is still open to interpretation. You could say (and I would say) that this paragraph refers to three types of orcs. The Uruk (great soldier-orcs of Mordor), the Uruk-hai (created by Saruman and called Half-orcs in one of those appendices), and the snaga (the lesser kinds).

 

BTW I would also say that these snaga never show up per se in any of the books, since they were probably considered to be fit only for tending pigs and other drudge work.

[Fitz]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

It seems to me that this is still open to interpretation. You could say (and I would say) that this paragraph refers to three types of orcs. The Uruk (great soldier-orcs of Mordor)' date=' the Uruk-hai (created by Saruman and called Half-orcs in one of those appendices), and the snaga (the lesser kinds).[/quote']

 

You could say that, but since Tolkien goes on directly to talk about the Uruk-hai generically, referring to orcs coming out of both Mordor and Isengard, I'd say that you'd be pushing the point further than it was designed to stretch.

 

BTW I would also say that these snaga never show up per se in any of the books, since they were probably considered to be fit only for tending pigs and other drudge work.

 

Well, you'd be wrong there. There's a scene during Sam and Frodo's trek across Mordor in which they overhear two orcs quarreling: the smaller one (tracker and archer) is referred to by the larger as "snaga", and the argument is concluded by the snaga putting an arrow through the eye of the uruk.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Look at Fitz with the big brain! You're right, of course.

 

Hmm..I wonder if that guy was an actual snaga, or just took it as a mortal insult especially since he might not have been much higher ranking than a snaga....

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

There also various discussions in the Tolkein societies about the creation of Orcs from the torturing/killing of Elves.

[Nevenall]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Warning, long post.

 

 

I've thought about Middle Earth magic a bit.

I don't have too many conclusions, but I've collected some interesting bits about Gandalf using magic. In particular the attempt at crossing the Red Horn Gate and the later journey through Moria.

 

To bring back the point about magic being draining, Gandalf was only really drained after he attempted to put a shutting spell on the door of the chamber of Mazabul (sp?) and his spell was countered by the Balrog.

 

I believe that most of the time Gandalf did not wish to use his magic because it would reveal him to the enemy. In the attempt on the Red Horn Gate they could light no fire until G used magic and he made some comment like, I've pretty much sent up a Gandalf beacon. I don't recall the exact range that he gives, but he gives something in relation to the Anduin River.

 

Also in that chapter the Company is half buried in snow and when Legolas suggests that G melt the snow with a hot flame G says that he must have something to work with, "I cannot burn snow." So, he can light wood, because wood is something that could be lit. Snow he cannot work against.

And keep in mind that all of Gandalf's fire magic comes from the red ring of fire which is one of the three elven rings and was given to him by the elf lord of the Gray Havens, Cirdan. Come to think of it. That explains why G is reluctant to use it becuase of the close connection between those who bear the three and the mind of Sauron.

 

When Gandalf is attempting to find the words to open the doors to Moria he says that he once knew every phrase that was ever used for such a purpose. Or something to that effect, now that is a lore master.

He also puts words of guard and guiding on Bill the Pony.

 

I really like the lore master flavor of Middle earth wizard magic, and there is a lot of interesting bits in the books themselves. However, I don't think Tolkien ever took a creative course where he would have been encouraged to come up with some kind of logically coherient magic system and to think out all the implications of that system and so on and so on. Which I am extremely grateful for BTW, but it means that piecing together a coherent magic system for an RPG can be difficult.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Seeing that the Fourth Age of Middle Earth is the age of men, instead of trying to figure out how magic worked before, could not men have discover their own kind of magic? Something more traditional along the lines of the Hero System? Maybe more of a sword and sorcery system than the traditional high fantasy system? Maybe human magic users are called something different than a "Wizard" such as a "Sorcerer" or "Warlock" so they are not confused with those who came before.

 

 

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Seeing that the Fourth Age of Middle Earth is the age of men' date=' instead of trying to figure out how magic worked before, could not men have discover their own kind of magic? Something more traditional along the lines of the Hero System? Maybe more of a sword and sorcery system than the traditional high fantasy system? Maybe human magic users are called something different than a "Wizard" such as a "Sorcerer" or "Warlock" so they are not confused with those who came before. [/quote']

 

Fairly close to what I may end up doing, Chiba Bob. At this point, we've finished a single character. He's a Dwarf Mason from Gimli's Glittering Cave colony that made his way to help rebuild the broken sections of Minas Tirith. I don't have his charsheet with me, but I'll like post it in the next couple of days.

 

I have an idea for a solo story with him, but I can't post details here. His player reads this board, and especially this thread. You'll have to wait until after the session. I'm considering trying to write some prose chronicling the events of the Fourth Age campaign.

 

Try to give something back, don't you know?

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Actually, technically, from the viewpoint of what magic really is, it isn't fading from Middle Earth. What happened was that the One Ring and the works of all the lesser Rings went away. Technically the arts of the Elves that didn't depend on the Rings didn't fade, nor would the ability to tap into black sorcery have faded either.

 

Men are less expert at the arts of Elvish magic (though possibly not black sorcery) than the Elves were, the art of subcreation. Or more precisely the lore of subcreation was fading from Middle Earth as the Elves departed and the lore that Men knew faded down the generations. But the Numenoreans were quite advanced in their arts and in theory ordinary men, though of lesser span might be able to develop those arts.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Mystics in the Lord of the Rings Universe obviously existed. How else do you explain the Witch-king of Angmar, a guise of the Lord of the Nazgûl.

 

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Markdoc]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Mystics in the Lord of the Rings Universe obviously existed. How else do you explain the Witch-king of Angmar' date=' a guise of the Lord of the Nazgûl[/quote']

 

Umm.... because he was a Nazgûl, and therefore a quasi-creation of Sauron, a semi-divine being?

 

When it comes down to Tolkein's own material, there's precious little in the way of actual sorcery. We have a few magical widgets (rings, palantir, etc) a few beings with powers (Numenoreans, both black white and possibly piebald) who lived a long time: but that's a legacy of their earlier gift from the gods.

 

After all, Gandalf - also a divine being - can go toe to toe with a Balrog, but does he cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter on him? Nah, he gets stuck in with a sword and finally ends up doing a WWF number on his ass and throwing him down a hillside (well, sorta). So he's tough, but in terms of actual magical power he's right up there with a 2nd or 3rd level DnD magic-user. He manages burning hands on the wargs in the Hobbit and casting hold portal in the LOTR pretty much exhausts his spellcasting ability.

 

But what about the witchking? He's gotta have magical powers - he has "witch" in his name, right? Well, maybe. But I see no mention of broomsticks or spells. In germanic/Scandanavian languages - with which Tolkein had a passing familiarity - the name simply carries the connotation "scary bad king" - for which he certainly qualifies.

 

Even Morgoth, the uber-baddy, can make things out of other thing (giant wolves, bat-things, dragons, magical weapons, etc) but doesn't seem to cast spells per se. When Fingolfin comes to challenge him, he doesn't want to come out to play - but when he does, he comes in armour with a mace. What, he can't even manage a magic missile spell?

 

So yeah, you could add in more magic. But frankly I can't see why, unless you want to play D and D on a map of Middle Earth. I'd restrict characters to making magical items and Talents - Elves get long life and some pretty keen enhanced senses, dwarves get plenty of body hair.... well, maybe that's more a special effect.

 

cheers,Mark

[Outsider]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Gandalf's use of the sword in dealing with the Balrog might not be because he lacked power, but because (as he stated) he has to have something to work with. Can't just kill a Balrog out of thin air, but he can work on a sword to make it extra deadly, and deadly even to something like a Balrog.

 

A friend of mine also had the theory that Gandalf rarely (only against the Balrog, basically) used his full power, since the point of sending the Istari at all was not merely to defeat Sauron, Power to Power, but to stir the free people of Middle Earth to oppose evil, and to teach them that they had the ability to defeat evil within themselves, without having to appeal to the Powers. The Scouring of the Shire is basically the same thing writ small. Gandalf knows there is trouble there, but declines to go with the hobbits to set things straight, telling them, more or less, that dealing with such things is precisely what they've been being trained to do.

 

Still, the bad guys arent so limited, and it would seem like they would be using every Ka-boom type spell at their disposal, if they could, and they dont. This could be a result of the fact that the unlimited sorts are also the lead from behind sort, and rarely come into direct conflict with others.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

After all' date=' Gandalf - also a divine being - can go toe to toe with a Balrog, but does he cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter on him? Nah, he gets stuck in with a sword and finally ends up doing a WWF number on his ass and throwing him down a hillside (well, sorta). So he's tough, but in terms of actual magical power he's right up there with a 2nd or 3rd level DnD magic-user. He manages burning hands on the wargs in the Hobbit and casting hold portal in the LOTR pretty much exhausts his spellcasting ability.[/quote']

 

 

In D&D terms, Gandalf is a buff mage if I ever saw one. He uses his magic to enhance his physical combat capabilities and defenses rather than throwing fireballs around. I have played a few in my day. I would have to say that he would have to be of fairly high level to be able to battle a Balrog by himself. I have never seen a 2nd or 3rd level D&D mage ever take on such a monster and survive. Just because Gandalf didn't cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter, does not necessary mean he can't.

 

[Outsider]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Hah.. I remember back in the day I got mega-hot on an AD&D character (destined to be the party mage) and got 3 (yes 3!) 18s to play with, along with a 16, and two lesser numbers. INT and DEX got 18s, of course, and I tossed the 16 into CON, as higher than that didnt give a hit point bonus to a mage. The last 18 I put in STR, just for giggles, which made me stronger than either of the party warrior types.

 

Unfortunately, it also made me the best door breaker in the party, which I only realized the true horror of the first time I broke open a door and realized that I was in front and had the full attention of a crowd of POed monsters