Fourth Age Hero

[Savinien]

Re: I've got a story!

 

As for the game itself...

 

I underpowered the opponents and my PCs and their NPCs destroyed the opposition with little difficulty. Now, I need another way of making them brave the unknown without the powers of their rank. I'm considering having the SoD frame them for something, making them outlaws while the SoD continues their work against Elesar II, unhindered and under the radar.

[Markdoc]

Re: I've got a story!

 

Osgiliath:

 

Using the map so kindly displayed by Marcdoc, what do you think everything is? It seems to be in a slightly different position than I've seen on any other maps. The river Anduin is barely over half a mile wide and most description put it at a mile. I don't see the Dome of Stars, either. Further, it shows Osgilitiath incorporating the River Morgulduin...

 

What do you all think of that?

 

[More later]

 

I have no idea of the provenance of the map, so ... ehhh. But then, I don't think I have ever seen another map of Osgiliath, so who knows what everything is? Feel free to make it up

 

On specific questions, IIRC, the Dome of Stars was a large building - perhaps actually on the bridge across the Anduin. That's why when it burned the palantir was lost in the river. There are two likely spots - one is the island where the broken bridge goes, the other is large building (? - something, anyway) on the bridge just downstream of that.

 

As far as the Morgulduin goes, I dunno. The road to Morgul vale was supposed to run beside it, so it can't have been far from the city but as to whether it actually ran inside the wall, who knows? I think we're reaching a level of detail here that even the increasingly prolific JRR Tolkien hasn't yet plumbed. Osgiliath seems to move a bit - on the various maps I have looked at sometimes it seems far away from Morgulduin, at other times close by. Afraid that doesn't help much.

 

As for the width of Anduin, it's a rare river that's uniform in width and it makes sense they'd build the bridge at the narrowest point, so I'd just handwave it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Savinien]

Re: I've got a story!

 

Excellent, Markdoc. I concur! I'm very glad someone has the time and willingness to talke with me about this. I have decided this map holds precedence as to the location of Osgiliath. I've also taken the map on the cover of North Western Middle Earth to be canon. It shows Osgiliath fairly close, roads, and town/fortification locations which seem most logical. As I haven't seen the map ANYWHERE except for there, I'm thinking of scanning the cover and Photoshopping the words out.

 

As for Osgiliath -

The Prince of Ithilien supposedly had his seat in the Emyn Arnen. It looks like there is a fairly large Hill (nearly a mountain) near the North Western edge of Emyn Arnen. I've going to locate the Prince's Pallace there. They'd have a nice view of the Anduin and Harlond (the port of Minas Tirith) from there.

 

Now, wouldn't there be a place in Ithilien for the Prince to hold Court after Osgiliath was rebuilt? On the western bank in the north-central location, it looks like some sort of Walled Courtyard. I'm putting the Prince, his Guard, and any Embassy's there. The Road that leads to Minas Tirith (Minas Arnor) is obvious and has either trees or statues flanking it. It heads nearly directly to my 'Palace' after passing through a small square of some sort.

 

Now, on the Eastern Bank a road looks similarly flanked by 'something' and leads to something, too. What is that area on the far East of the city A park?? Garden? What?

 

The Southern Most Bridge seems to have some sort of Castellan on it. I think that will likely be the 'new' Dome of Stars, even though the Northernmost Bridge seems to be flanked by something or other.

 

It also looks like River traffic is detoured around the small island to the docks to the East. That means those bridges must be really arched, orhigh off the water level...

 

Where do you think the various districts are located? The southern edge of the city on the western bank of the river seems to have very small streets. I pictured this as more ruinous and the 'less savory' location of the city.

 

There is some sort of ampitheater at the farmost west-central location. What would that be?

 

And, just to the north of that is 'something' but, I don't know what.

 

The map is awesome. If I could talk to whoever made it... Know what they were thinking, I'd be a very happy GM. Some Osgiliath centered intrigue would be fun!

[Savinien]

Re: I've got a story!

 

I'm an idiot. The place i was going to make the 'Palace' within Osgiliath is some sort of bay-like quay or soemthing.

 

Doh!!! It's cool the way the various streams move through the city on this map!

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Golum's voice "THIEF, It's mine gives it back to usssss". Here's some of my Fourth Age Campaign Notes.

 

BTW. The Witch King of Angmar WAS Human. Before becoming the Lord of the Nazgul.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Golum's voice "THIEF, It's mine gives it back to usssss". Here's some of my Fourth Age Campaign Notes.

 

BTW. The Witch King of Angmar WAS Human. Before becoming the Lord of the Nazgul.

 

Neat stuff, Question Man! I'm especially interested in your 4th Age notes (obviously). Strangely, my ideas for the Sons of Denethor fit in quite well with what you're describing as the main villian. Between the two, my ideas (also stolen from here...) and yours, that's a lot of political maneuvering and plot twists for much gamng in the future!!

 

Did you ever start play with this stuff?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I got the Players lined up and the character pre generated characters, and several Pre generated Plots, but life had other plans. Occassionally I add something to it, but for now NO campaign.

 

Golum - "It hurtssss usss"

 

QM

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Dang it's annoying when you can't give rep out when you want

 

Anyhow, anyone know the population of Osgilliath at the time this map represents? I'm thinking of stealling it for my fantasy setting as well. Even though it goes against my grain (being a huge fan of Tolkein)

[Outsider]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Well, now that I think about it, the 'how likely is it' argument isnt my real point of contention with introducing 15th/16th century tech into ME.

 

It more that as a player entering a game set in Middle Earth, I would be disappointed to find that the setting really wasnt all that Middle Earth-y feeling. And the presence of guns would do that for me.

 

There is also the question of if gunpowder as we know if (a chemical compound) is even possible in Middle Earth, or if gunpowder as seen in Middle Earth in Sauron's 'Fires of Orthanc' and Gandalf's fireworks requires magical (for want of a better word) infusion to work. If it is a simple chemical compound, then why didnt Sauron, who was certainly craft-wise enough to know how to make it, equip some or all of his minions with it? If it did require magical infusion, it would be because Sauron didnt want to spend his personal time and effort infusing the tons, tens of tons, and hundreds of tons of powder needed to equip an army of AK-47 bearing orcs.

 

Of course, if one really wants to, one can accept both views and say that gunpowder changed from infusion to chemistry with the changing of the age. It isnt like the laws of physics hadnt changed drastically before in Middle Earth. (reference the bending of the earth into a sphere that excluded Aman at the time of the Downfall of Numenor)

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Dang it's annoying when you can't give rep out when you want

 

Anyhow, anyone know the population of Osgilliath at the time this map represents? I'm thinking of stealling it for my fantasy setting as well. Even though it goes against my grain (being a huge fan of Tolkein)

 

I hear you concerning REP. I've considered trying to figure out the dynamic of REP, but decided it is better off a mystery.

 

Someone else found the Osgiliath map, Markdoc, I believe and I couldn't get any more info concerning it. I'd really like to brainstorm about what the various structures may be.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Dang it's annoying when you can't give rep out when you want

 

Anyhow, anyone know the population of Osgilliath at the time this map represents? I'm thinking of stealling it for my fantasy setting as well. Even though it goes against my grain (being a huge fan of Tolkein)

 

Unless a great deal of the city is still in ruins (think of medieval rome with some new districts and others - the poorer quarters - with lots of people living in basically patched up ruins and even large areas of grass, used for grazing where buildings had collapsed or burnt down) then the population is likely to be large - on the order of 50 - 150,000, depending on density. By medieval standards, this is a *really* big city. By comparison, late medieval Siena was about 1/2 the area of this city and had nearly 100,000 inhabitants, while late medieval London (early Tudor period) was slightly larger and had a population of about 75,000. To my mind Gondorian building styles (lots of stone, courtyards, big buildings etc) have more in common with the Italians than the 1 or 2 story brick and wood style of the English at the time.

 

Of course, having half the city be in ruins would be pretty cool too...

 

cheers, Mark

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Is that even plausible only a few hundred years into the 4th Age? The city would have to be almost completely rebuilt (at least all the bridges) and you have Minas Arnor only a league or so distant. Just the sheer amount of food that would need to be imported (the Ithilien did not have much farmland as it was primarily used by the nobility for quiet time and hunting retreat).

 

Therefore, I believe that large portions of the city must still be in ruin. That wouldn't stop the financially challenged from squating there, of course...

 

Much to think about! As always, Thanks!!!

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I got the Players lined up and the character pre generated characters, and several Pre generated Plots, but life had other plans. Occassionally I add something to it, but for now NO campaign.

 

Golum - "It hurtssss usss"

 

QM

 

I'll do my best to keep you appraised of my own game and how much I steal from you, then. At least, you can see how your work could POSSIBLY work. But, only with a GM with less talent than yourself, I'm sure.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I'll do my best to keep you appraised of my own game and how much I steal from you' date=' then. At least, you can see how your work could POSSIBLY work. But, only with a GM with less talent than yourself, I'm sure.[/quote']

 

My greatest failing as a GM is that I lose interest/enthusiasm for the campaign genre/setting. My campaigns generally haven't lasted long, but that is slowly changing.

 

 

When it comes to GMing I am usually organized enough that I have copies of everybodies Character, the NPC's, and notes about NPC's they have met and will meet.

 

I try to keep track of everything and make note during game and keep a campaign journal. No matter how hard you plan ahead no adventure survives contact with the players. Despite all my preparation and planning they almost always do the unexpected.

 

That's also why I take notes. Cause some day some small seemingly insignificant event will come back to haunt them and the looks of realization and "you bastard" are priceless.

 

The 4th Age is not as peaceful as you would expect. It is a time of consolidation, chaos, and rebuilding. Rember also that the allies of Suron and Suraman are still out there and not all of them lost.

 

What where the Dwarves doing? Where they besieged?

 

Deserters, Bandits, and other opportunitst make the borderlands unsafe. What of the Riders of Rohan. How did he deal with those who did not answer the call to arms.

 

The possibilities are endless.

 

Cheers

 

QM

 

P.S.: Please do keep me updated on your game. Thanks. Do you need anything else? I have some of the old ICE MERP Books inclueding the White City.

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I know I have some of the old ICE MERP books, too, but can't find ANY. I can't even find my old red covered MERP rule book. I'm basically going with the Northwestern Middle Earth gazeteer and the Campaign Guide. I don't even have a decent 'large' map to use. I'm currently using the cover of the Gazeteer.

 

All of the maps are fairly different.

 

At this point, I could use detailed maps of any location near Ithilien. I'm mostly in Southern Ithilien at this point, but could range through the whole area.

 

Maps of Minas Tirith would be sweet as well as, Harlond, Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol, and any ideas concerning what Emyn Arnen might really be like at this point.

 

My take is slightly different than your own. Ellesar and Eomer worked hard with the Great Host and cleared out large portions of Sauron and Saruman's forces. Gondor has an uneasy truce with Harad and Umbar at this point. Gimli successfully colonized the Glittering Caves and his close ties with Gondor kept his people heading down there to help out (they fixed the Mithril Gates of the White City, after all).

 

JRRT did mention that Minas Morgul was to be destroyed and Osgiliath rebuilt. I just wonder how long all of that would take along with the Great Host flitting about Middle-Earth...

 

My first idea centered around a group of disgruntled Gondorian Nobility - Family of the Steward, Denethor. There are those that would not like what Elasar was doing and would downplay the need of a strong military force kept up by their tax money. They'd want change and Faramir's family would be the best direction to look. I've never GMed Fantasy Hero and have only GMed Hero (in general) a handful of times.

 

I have been GMing for years and take copious notes (albeit all very disorganized). One of the players made a character related to Faramir's line (Prince Barahir). He fits perfectly for getting embedded in the SoD's plans. he was ordered to lead a small portion of the Glittering Cave delegation to Lord Franjeck's estate in Southern Emyn Arnen. There, the SoD plotted to capture him and attempt a ransom, while trying to learn how he felt about the coming Coups.

 

The characters easily overwhelmed their enemies and have now captured one of the attackers. They are still on their way to Lord Franjeck's estate. I need to figure out what the SoD may try next. I was hoping to make the PCs flee into the hills of the Emyn Arnen. The SoD would realize they need Mortilmir (the PC) out of the picture so they can use a younger relative as their puppet for the coming Coups.

 

They would frame Mortilmir as a killer and the campaign would consist of them as fugutives trying to learn what's going on and clear Mortilmir's name.

 

Have I already posted this?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Here are some Links to Maps and some Images as well.

 

Minas Tirith - Google Images Search

http://images.google.ca/images?q=Minas+Tirith+Map&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Minas+Tirith&btnG=Search

 

Harlond

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Harlond&btnG=Search

 

Minas Morgul - Google Images Search

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Minas+Morgul+Map&btnG=Search

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Minas+Morgul&btnG=Search

 

Cirith Ungol - Google Images Search

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Cirith+Ungol+

 

Emyn Arnen - Google Images Search

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Emyn+Arnen+Map'>http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Emyn+Arnen+Map

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Emyn+Arnen

 

Osgiliath - Google Images Search

http://images.google.ca/images?q=Osgiliath++Map&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Osgiliath&btnG=Search

 

More to come

 

QM

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Osgiliath - was rebuilt by Faramir and Eowyn. Many Elves moved to Osgiliath to help restore the city and as a way point for the ships. Legolas heard the call of the sea, but friendship held him until Aragorn passed beyond the veil and then left on the ship for the undying lands.

 

IIRC

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Where is Harlond? Are there two locations with the same name? One on the west coast and another, the 'docks' of Minas Tirith along the Anduin?

 

Nevermind. There are indeed two different locations called Harlond.

 

Weird.

 

Did any of you ever read about the two separate groups of people with the same names: Baromir, Faromir, etc?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Where is Harlond? Are there two locations with the same name? One on the west coast and another' date=' the 'docks' of Minas Tirith along the Anduin?[/quote']

 

I found two tiny Maps not even worth mentioning.

 

Did any of you ever read about the two separate groups of people with the same names: Baromir' date=' Faromir, etc?[/quote']

 

No, Why do you ask.

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

Only in the fantasy genre do you often come across the phenomenon of unique names. There are very few "Henry the Fifths" or "Paris, Texas"s in designed worlds for some reason...

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

I don't recall where I read it, probably on the Encyclopedia of Arda, but JRRT detailed a series of people during the mid Third Age while he was writing The Hobbit. Later, when he decided to write the LotR, he used those same people, sort of merging the older characters with newer ones to better fit the timeline he was writing the book in. I found it interesting. Sort of like this Harlond thing...

 

Curufea is right, often times literature (or any entertainment media) covering a single topic, especially in the fiction genre do 'authors' use the same names for different characters. After all, it would be even more confusing than it already is.

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

But it subtracts from the realism.

 

There should be hundreds of inns in a kingdom named after, or similar to the current king, for example - "The Royal lion" or "The King's arms" etc...

 

Especially in the case of rulers, who were in the habit of either naming their heirs after themselves, or adopting the name of a particularly effective and famous predecessor...

[Savinien]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

My players have enough trouble remembering who Franjeck is, or which town The Wiggling Wench is in. If I had named multiple Inns in different towns all Lair of the Bear, they'd cry havoc and unleash the Thongs of Wear on me.

[Curufea]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

But it does cut down on the number of names you have to invent

 

You just have to get them used to calling things the "something" of "this town/village/city". Surnames are another area that is tricky - do you have them or not? People who don't wander around (ie NPCs), don't really need them - and are likely known by everyone in their settlement. But this is off the point, so I'll shut up now

[tkdguy]

Re: Fourth Age Hero

 

My players have enough trouble remembering who Franjeck is' date=' or which town The Wiggling Wench is in. If I had named multiple Inns in different towns all Lair of the Bear, they'd cry havoc and unleash the Thongs of Wear on me.[/quote']

One in-game joke was a tavern called The Bleeding Orifice.