Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

[Black Rose]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I think the fixed-cost powers, talents, skills, etc. all become a bargain at high enough point levels, especially something like damage reduction, which is cost effective at almost every level.

The other issue is simulation of what I would call "extreme" genre settings, like Pre-Crisis JLA, pretty much the entirety of DragonballZ/GT, certain fantasy and sci-fi settings, etc. On the one hand, with for example DBZ, you have to have characters who can ignore conventional weaponry of any sort, generate blasts of energy powerful enough to destroy mountains, cities, and eventually planets, and yet vulnerable enough to be pummeled into unconsciousness or blasted into vapor by another Z-fighter. And at the same time, another guy shows up who's dramatically better than anyone else, and everyone has to go train and get dramatically superior in a relatively short period of time. That's pretty hard to simulate in any game system and still maintain some concept of "balance".

 

In re: Dragon Ball/Dragon Ball Z/Dragon Ball GT/Dragon Ball Kumquat

 

If you are a believer in the "every additional DC equals x2 effect" than it's actually pretty easy to get much better than your foes. Just go up one more DC. I really feel that settings such as Dragon Ball work well when you go for high defences and low CON and STUN. Not dangerously low or anything, but not much more than 30 max (for CON) or 75 max (for STUN). This means any attacks that actually get through will matter. Keep your defences high and they rarely get through.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

If your combat values are all over the place then you COULD substitute a d20 for your hit rolls. I wouldn't swap skill rolls or activation rolls over to d20 though, that would break the point costs of activation.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Answering the orignal question, no I don't find that it does. I ran a 10+ year champions game - characters ended up around 600-700 points (started around 250). Large team. No problems, they just had different challenges than the original storylines.

Similar situation in FH - ran a campaign for years. Heroes started at 100+100, and ended up in the 500 to 600 range. No problems.

 

I plan to start a game with beginning points are 750 (JLA kinda thing). I expect at the end of the run to have 1200-1300 point characters. I expect no problems.

[zornwil]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I haven't played at the higher levels indicated here, but have allowed some unusual powers and at the 500 point range you get some pretty plot-busting and combat-busting sorts of abilities. That's not the system problem, though, that all relates back to how you want to handle these things as GM (I appreciate such challenges) and as stated earlier, more power needs more attention to detail - and very small campaigns do as well. But as far as I can see, that's about the main distinction (well, except for what Archon mentioned about 13,000 points, yikes! I can't really see playing that).

 

I don't see this feeling that characters at several hundred points can't replicate the comics, I feel that the PCs in my game all would give most comic book characters a good run for their money. Obviously some uber-types aren't going to be so easy or within reach, as stated earlier as well. But I just don't see where you aren't on the Green Arrow, Daredevil, Hulk, Fantastic Four (as individuals), Cloak and Dagger, Luke Cage, and such level somewhere (depending on build) from 350-500 points. Some of the really heavy-duty guys such as Spiderman, Batman, Superman, Thor, and Silver Surfer of course are hard to do in this range, but of course a few supers are beyond the pale as they should be (and some of these depend entirely on the era, both Spiderman and Batman have been easy to do on around 350 points in their early careers).

 

Where I do see some difficulties in scaling up are in the skills areas. I don't think the absolute powers are so problematic, but skills either have to be limited deliberately to lower levels or you have to really work at making uber-skills function properly, as once you're in the 40+ range of die rolls it's hard to arbiter how that works from the mundane to fantastic level well. Similarly, some chars are hard to quantify as they reach extreme levels (what does BOD 100 mean aside from its defensive effects, wouldn't it have other character bearing? what about INT 150?). I've "struggled" with these issues in my not-too-high supers campaign, as we have two extreme brainiacs. But I find the system continues to work, it's just that skills challenges need to be reviewed carefully in their plot impact, and you need a few similar uber-villains to give the excessive skills a run for their money. Plus you need to define how practical considerations still matter, such as "you may have a tremendous legal mind, the greatest ever imagined, but that doesn't mean you have the requisite abilities to distill that into being a trial lawyer."

[ghost-angel]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

One of the things I've seen to break the game down at higher levels is mostly the fault of the players and GM.

 

The 'System' does not break down so much as the 'Game' breaks down.

 

The players and GM don't realize the capabilities of a higher level point base and forget to appropriately scale the game up to match it, having 1,000 point characters facing the same issues as 350 characters can make the system seem to break down completely.

 

The Rules, as the first post pointed towards, don't break at all. They are, for all intents, infinitely scalable and remain within similar capabilities as each other - a 100point power is a 100point power, the effectiveness in play is up to the player.