Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

[megaplayboy]

I got into a conversation with a member of my game group the other day, and he contended that the AD&D rules basically break at the higher levels of the game, since things get way out of balance. He also asserted that Hero system does likewise at some point. I partly agreed, but suggested that it really shouldn't, since it's supposed to be able to represent any genre or setting.

So, as a general discussion question, do people think the Hero system starts to break down at higher levels(say, beyond the normal range most campaigns operate at), and at what point do they think it starts to break down?

 

One thing I've noticed is that most Champions PCs seem slightly underpowered compared to their comic book counterparts. And when people talk about the capabilities of certain comic book characters, the point levels seem to go way beyond the "standard" settings used for typical campaigns, leading me to wonder why the "standard" settings aren't put closer in alignment to the comic book archetypes. Instead, a lot of posters seem to want to "round down" the comic book characters to bring them in line with the hero system level they are most comfortable with.

I think this happens also for fantasy characters, though to a lesser extent.

And yet the starship writeups in Terran Empire are built on huge numbers of points, and deal out massive damage.

 

So it leaves me a little confused--is the "brokenness" of the rules at higher levels real, or a matter of perception/comfort?

[Eosin]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I will be the first to give a conditional "no it does not break at higher levels"

 

Now, it does do what it should, meaning that 30d6 thrown at a commoner will leave a fine pink mist and rusty odor in the air. Two very-powerful beings should be able to whack each other up a bit before the FU power comes into play. But in 3,000 point characters FU powers are likely to be more common.

 

comics vs champions

There are likely very many opinions on this but my own personal opinion is that few people want to play in a game that is largely stagnant (like the comics). Players want their characters to grow and that means XP. The secodary reason is that players tend to focus into combat-brutality.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I will be the first to give a conditional "no it does not break at higher levels"

 

Now, it does do what it should, meaning that 30d6 thrown at a commoner will leave a fine pink mist and rusty odor in the air. Two very-powerful beings should be able to whack each other up a bit before the FU power comes into play. But in 3,000 point characters FU powers are likely to be more common.

 

comics vs champions

There are likely very many opinions on this but my own personal opinion is that few people want to play in a game that is largely stagnant (like the comics). Players want their characters to grow and that means XP. The secodary reason is that players tend to focus into combat-brutality.

 

well, it is true that comic book characters tend to be somewhat more "self-actualized". But sometimes the "standard" level superhero PCs don't even feel as effective as relatively new characters in comics. And I've played Champions for 20 years, steadily for the last 12--never played in a standard 250 point campaign that made it past 500 points(most never even made it past 400 points). So, for me, starting at "standard" level and hoping that someday my PC will be as capable as a comic book hero is pretty much an exercise in frustration

[Bucky]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

One thing I've noticed is that most Champions PCs seem slightly underpowered compared to their comic book counterparts. And when people talk about the capabilities of certain comic book characters, the point levels seem to go way beyond the "standard" settings used for typical campaigns, leading me to wonder why the "standard" settings aren't put closer in alignment to the comic book archetypes. Instead, a lot of posters seem to want to "round down" the comic book characters to bring them in line with the hero system level they are most comfortable with.

I am not real sure what is meant by "broken" here in this context. The purpose of Hero is entertainment. Yes, Uberman, with 3 million points will beat up any and all bad guys (with the possible exception of some almighty gods). Personally I would not find it that much fun, but then some folks would.

 

ANd if Uberman can aquire 3 million points, what is to prevent the GM from building 5 million point villians to challenge Uberman?

 

But there is a reason why people "round down" comic book supes. If our character dies, we roll a new one. We ain't got stock holders whining about loss of share prices.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

It does depend on what you mean by broken.

 

Hero is the ultimate scalable system - it doesn't matter how many points you are if your opponent is similarly endowed with offence and defence.

 

I think that the problem with Hero at large point levels is that the GM has to be more on the ball with regard to concept. With shed loads of points it is tempting to ensure your character is covered from all kinds of attack whether that is in concept or not.

 

Other than that tendency for characters to become more samey because they're covering all the bases with all the powers and all the defences I don't think high point games are broken...

 

 

Doc

[OddHat]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

"Hero is a tool kit." I don't think the system breaks particularly, as long as the GM is willing to use common and dramatic sense to decide how to apply the rules and which options to enforce.

 

However, it's also true that the limits define the genre, and that some point levels are just easier for less experienced GMs to handle than others. If you're playing Fantasy Hero, and trying to simulate the Elric books, 350 point characters might work. Heck, 350 point characters might work in some fantasy games. However, the GM is going to have to ask himself what DC limits he plans to set, what advatages he'll allow, what limits, etc.

 

As to 350 vs 750 vs 1500 point Supers, in my experience the GM has a lot more work to do dealing with higher point Supers than lower point Supers, especially when it comes to (a) keeping every character from having every ability, and ( keeping games challenging and fun. The old Silver Age Superman probably had around 3000 points or more in his most monstrous incarnations; he could build Super Androids that were as powerful as he was, space stations, space ships ... in at least one Silver Age story he built a new Earth. He could blow out Stars. It's possible to tell stories with a character that powerful, but you'll need something better than Grond Rampages in Mid-Town to keep your players interested.

 

When I build characters to post to these boards, I tend to stick to 350 points. It's easier to upgrade than downgrade. On the other hand you can run a great campaign at much higher point totals (read some of the stuff Jeffery Kramer is doing some time), as long as you're willing to put in the work.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I see hero has the most problems at very low point levels and very high ones.

 

At very low point levels (heroic campaigns) the character who is min maxed is vastly more effective than the character who isn't. In a 25 point + 25 point campaign simply buying down INT, EGO, PRE, and COM to 8 will give you an extra 9 points and a huge edge over the player who sets those same scores at 10.

 

At super high point levels you have the issue that everyone can do, everything. They can do everything either by virtue of having basically every power (if you have 2000 points to spend you can afford pretty much ALL the powers), or by virtue of having a variable power pool.

 

In a really high power campaign the only really smart build is to jam 1/2 your points in ability scores and basic defenses and jam the other half in a cosmic power pool. Do that and you get a character with essentially godlike power.

[SSJ Archon]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

The Hero system does break down at a point. But it should be noted that all systems break down at some point due to the mathamatics. They simply are not designed for it.

 

Last time I checked, the Hero system runs fine until you hit about 13,000 points, where defenses begin to become to cheap (ie, attacks can't penetrate all the defenses and make headway against renegeration.)

 

This is normal. Threats (Attacks) are better than Anwsers (Defenses) if they cost the same. So either the game devolves into a lethal game of hide and seek, or everyone stands around looking at each other wondering how to hurt each other. It all depends on what things cost. The reason it becomes visible at high point totals is that the power difference between defense and attack is very slight, and you have to magnify the system to several thousand points before the cost/benefit gap shows up in a any real valuable quanity of points.

 

Hero can run high point games like that, but I would suggest looking at costs and tweaking things (of course, this throws other point levels off balance.) Maybe EB becomes 52 points for 10 dice? You'd have to research it.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I would say that, more than anything else, Hero breaks down at *low* point totals, partly due to granularity issues, partly because the combat mechanics are designed more with supercombat or other more "dramatic" genres in mind.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Okay, here's the kicker: comic book characters do not have the point progression that you find in a Champions game. Most superheroes in the comic books tend to ramp up to a certain level, hold for a while, and then have the occasional rises and drops as their powers/nature are revamped.

 

In short, can Captain America really said to be increasing 2-3 cp "per session" as it were? What about Batman?

 

The fact is that most gamers really don't want to play that accurate a simulation of the comic book genre, with the arbitrary rises and drops in powers and the fact that most characters tend to stabilize at a given power level. They like a game where their characters give them a steady sense of progress and growth, which isn't really all that typical for the superhero genre at least as practiced by Marvel and DC.

[Bucky]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

The Hero system does break down at a point. But it should be noted that all systems break down at some point due to the mathamatics. They simply are not designed for it.

 

Last time I checked, the Hero system runs fine until you hit about 13,000 points, where defenses begin to become to cheap (ie, attacks can't penetrate all the defenses and make headway against renegeration.)

Why am I reminded of the fight between Dorian Gray and Ms. Harker in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? "We'll be at this all day."

 

At 13,000 points, aren't you like, God anyway? Or just about? I don't see that as too much a problem, as I would retire a character long before that point. It would get dull playing him, I imagine. (Not that I have a chance of ever seeing any character get to that level. Sooner or later, I screw up and my characters get killed long before they reach any serious levels.)

[sbarron]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

In short, can Captain America really said to be increasing 2-3 cp "per session" as it were? What about Batman?

I think most comic book characters are spending points on stuff that super-heroic PCs in most games never will. For example:

 

AK: Alternate Dimension #12 8-

KS: Villian #3458 11-

Contact: Sam the Butcher on planet Zenon 8-

 

See my point? Most PCs would never pay points for things that they learn in game, or contacts that they make in game. But if you were to stat out most comic book characters, I think you would (or should). So comic book characters are getting and spending points, there just spending it on things (GASP!) other than powers.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

There are a couple of issues raised here that particularly struck me: First, the concerns that characters will start to look "the same" because they will buy all available Powers, cover all possible weaknesses etc. is to some extent a function of the players' desire to maximize the efficiency of their designs. Certainly you can say the the HERO System allows them to do that - maybe even encourages it with the point-buy, choose-what-you-want approach - but that really isn't inherent to the system. "Efficiency" doesn't have to be the goal of character design, and sometimes an efficient build isn't the best fit for your character concept.

 

There's also an underlying assumption coming through here that high-powered campaigns require huge numbers of Character Points. With the expanded options available in the 5E version of HERO/Champions, such as judicious use of the MegaScale Advantage, and the rule adjustment options presented in the Champions genre book and Galactic Champions, it's easy to create characters as formidable as their comic-book counterparts against normal human opponents and the general environment without having to greatly inflate their point totals.

 

Having said that, what I do find suffer a little as the Active Point level of a campaign grows are some of the fixed-price Powers, such as Desolid. Compared to the scalable Powers they can become notably cheap for the benefits they grant you.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I think most comic book characters are spending points on stuff that super-heroic PCs in most games never will. For example:

 

AK: Alternate Dimension #12 8-

KS: Villian #3458 11-

Contact: Sam the Butcher on planet Zenon 8-

 

See my point? Most PCs would never pay points for things that they learn in game, or contacts that they make in game. But if you were to stat out most comic book characters, I think you would (or should). So comic book characters are getting and spending points, there just spending it on things (GASP!) other than powers.

Excellent observation.

 

Of course, some of us do that in Champions too.

[Blue]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

The point about hero being a tool kit is true. If you're not much of a carpenter then you aren't going to build a very good house and down it comes.

 

I think it's only broken if the GM allows you to stack one power or stat.

 

At 350pts, let's say you had a limit of 12D6 on an attack. The character then proceeds to take the majority of his EXP between then and the 450pt level and build this into a 30D6 attack that obliterates all the charcters who were more uniformly applying their points.

 

Proper controls make for proper games.

 

I tend to think that D20 D&D is only broken if you use the outside books. For example, anything put out by Monte Cook independantly is way more powerful than anything he designed in the original system. That makes those prestige classes more powerful and unbalances things.

[Kristopher]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I think the problem with comparing most comic books characters to the standard power levels in Champions, at least now at FREd's 350-point standard, is that popular opinion really inflates the capabilities of the comic book characters. There's a real tendancy to find the most extreme examples of each power and stat ever seen in print for a character, and then insist on giving a HERO conversion of the character at least that much of the power or stat.

 

If a character does something just once in hundreds of issues, the writer or artist screwed up.

 

If a character does something 2 or 3 times, he was probably pushing or using a power stunt.

 

If a character actually does something repeatedly, then find the typical depiction, not the extreme, and write the power based on the typical power level depicted.

[proditor]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I think the problem with comparing most comic books characters to the standard power levels in Champions' date=' at least now at FREd's 350-point standard, is that popular opinion really inflates the capabilities of the comic book characters. There's a real tendancy to find the most [i']extreme[/i] examples of each power and stat ever seen in print for a character, and then insist on giving a HERO conversion of the character at least that much of the power or stat.

 

If a character does something just once in hundreds of issues, the writer or artist screwed up.

 

If a character does something 2 or 3 times, he was probably pushing or using a power stunt.

 

If a character actually does something repeatedly, then find the typical depiction, not the extreme, and write the power based on the typical power level depicted.

Very true. I somehow once got sucked into a conversation about how much Marvel's Taskmaster sucked because in one 2 issue run of Spiderman he had been unable to adapt his fighting style, was a coward and couldn't stop Spiderman. My only response was "So, a 2 issue aberration out of 25+ years of continuity and I'm supposed to buy your argument?" You have to go with the norm, not the weird. Just because in Tales to Admonish #123, The Galloping Gobstopper used his cosmic rod as a rocket powered pogo stick, doesn't mean he can always do it. A good example I can think of was when Nova (from New Warriors) got his own title for a while and he started getting new powers to boot. It was sporadic, sort of like he was using a power skill, then as he got better and used it more often, it was just "Another power", ie: he bought the sucker. Now this is the exception in my experience, not the rule. The rule is that other than minimal skill buys over time, most Superheroes stay pretty much the same unless they get a new writer with enough clout to massively change them.

 

Bacl to the question though...

 

Yes, DnD does break down at high levels, but how much sort of depends on what you are playing. Clerics are terrifying powerhouses, but after say 15th level, don't even bother trying to turn undead of your CR unless they are template sorts. Others experience similar losses in areas depending entirely on class.

 

Hero seems to have more issues at low level to me as well. While efficiency can be a dirty word, there is no denying that if you use it, you will almost certainly be more effective in the areas you tweaked. At the higher levles, I find it actually occurs less. Just make sure you have your campaign limits all stated out and the rest is cake. If you stick to those and make sure you thought it through, well, I didn't notice any breakage beyond say 3k in points, so I'll say it ain't broke.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Yes, Hero System "breaks" at higher levels. Somewhere around 1000 points or so (perhaps as little as 600 points).

 

At this level, a 1000 point Batman can't compete with a 1000 point Superman. He isn't Batman anymore, he's either Iron Man with a bat motif or Flash with the "I have already superhumanly dodged (or partially dodged) out of the way of that attack that would have surely killed me."

 

Simular to hitting that level in AD&D where the magic-users lay waste with mass kill spells and the fighter just keeps the bad guys away long enough for the casting.

[Grailknight]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

The system doesn't break but it does change focus. As you reach higher and higher power levels, the starting point starts to become insignificant. In my experience this is more a problem in low pt games than in higher because Characteristics are really the most powerful aspects of Hero.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

well, in terms of raw game mechanics, it seems to me that some mechanics do hit a point of diminishing returns--DEX and SPD stand out in this regard.

At some point, the benefits of continuing to increase DEX tend to diminish, compared to buying lightning reflexes/CSLs. SPD of course maxes out at 12, so it's hard to imagine multi-thousand point PCs(and many NPCs at that level) not having a 12 SPD. Past 110 DEX, you gain no further SPD benefit, although selling back excess SPD would make buying DEX above that level comparatively cheap.

 

Granted, a character with 110 DEX is a million times more dextrous than a normal human

[Rapier]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Last time I checked' date=' the Hero system runs fine until you hit about 13,000 points[/quote']

Heh. As far as I'm concerned that's a 'No.'

 

13000 pts? Sheesh. And I thought I was pretty busy with 700 -900 pt heroes.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I think the fixed-cost powers, talents, skills, etc. all become a bargain at high enough point levels, especially something like damage reduction, which is cost effective at almost every level.

The other issue is simulation of what I would call "extreme" genre settings, like Pre-Crisis JLA, pretty much the entirety of DragonballZ/GT, certain fantasy and sci-fi settings, etc. On the one hand, with for example DBZ, you have to have characters who can ignore conventional weaponry of any sort, generate blasts of energy powerful enough to destroy mountains, cities, and eventually planets, and yet vulnerable enough to be pummeled into unconsciousness or blasted into vapor by another Z-fighter. And at the same time, another guy shows up who's dramatically better than anyone else, and everyone has to go train and get dramatically superior in a relatively short period of time. That's pretty hard to simulate in any game system and still maintain some concept of "balance".

[sbarron]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

well, in terms of raw game mechanics, it seems to me that some mechanics do hit a point of diminishing returns--DEX and SPD stand out in this regard.

At some point, the benefits of continuing to increase DEX tend to diminish, compared to buying lightning reflexes/CSLs. SPD of course maxes out at 12, so it's hard to imagine multi-thousand point PCs(and many NPCs at that level) not having a 12 SPD. Past 110 DEX, you gain no further SPD benefit, although selling back excess SPD would make buying DEX above that level comparatively cheap.

 

Granted, a character with 110 DEX is a million times more dextrous than a normal human

I just don't think anyone plays games at this level. That being the case, whether is breaks or not isn't really important.

 

I mean really...once Star Destroyers cease to be a threat, what's the point?

[Merlin273]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I am not real sure what is meant by "broken" here in this context. The purpose of Hero is entertainment. Yes, Uberman, with 3 million points will beat up any and all bad guys (with the possible exception of some almighty gods). Personally I would not find it that much fun, but then some folks would.

 

ANd if Uberman can aquire 3 million points, what is to prevent the GM from building 5 million point villians to challenge Uberman?

 

But there is a reason why people "round down" comic book supes. If our character dies, we roll a new one. We ain't got stock holders whining about loss of share prices.

 

On that note; has anyone worked up stats for God (aka. "Yaweh", or "Jehovah")? S/he should be able to be built for at least 500,000 character points.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

On that note; has anyone worked up stats for God (aka. "Yaweh"' date=' or "Jehovah")? S/he should be able to be built for at least 500,000 character points.[/quote']

well, IIRC, HD can accomodate writeups totaling up to a million points, but any writeups over 29,997 points will not be "balanced"(i.e., 9999 base, plus 9999 disads, plus 9999 experience).

Also, you can't buy more than 99,999 followers without a custom perk

 

It's probably just an NPC whose main power is a 9999 point VPP, cosmic, with a +10 variable advantage on the pool