Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I think the fixed-cost powers' date=' talents, skills, etc. all become a bargain at high enough point levels, especially something like damage reduction, which is cost effective at almost every level.[/quote']

 

 

An excellent point, as these are not scalable.

 

I think that Hero has the potential to break down at any level, but Blue made a good point: it is a tool kit, and the game you plays depends on build quality. You can play games at huge points levels, but it takes a lot of effort to make them work. This applies to both GM and players: high level characters can easily be differentiated only by their costume. Also you need every power to avoid falling to those Does BODY NNDs....

 

I don't really agree that it doesn't work at low points either: you just need to keep a careful eye on it. We started a FH game at 25+25 and all the characetrs had good differentiation, they had to work as a team to survive, and you could guarantee that any talent they had was not liklely to be duplicated.

 

As for comic/characters, I'm going against the grain here, but I don't think Hero characters are underpowered at all. You can do some utterly astonishing things with 350 points. Imagine some of the things in games you've played in translated into a comic book. That huge damage roll that KO'd the villain...surviving the DoomBomb...saving the world time and again. The difference is that, in a game, you can't guarantee when the rolls are going to go in your favour, but when they do, even a low to moderate powered Hero hero compares favourably with most of the comic book universe.

 

Guess I'm just contrary tonight...

[sbarron]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I don't really agree that it doesn't work at low points either: you just need to keep a careful eye on it. We started a FH game at 25+25 and all the characetrs had good differentiation' date=' they had to work as a team to survive, and you could guarantee that any talent they had was not liklely to be duplicated.[/quote']I think the key is to make charcters specialize even at this level. If they all decide to be pretty strong, pretty fast, pretty smart, pretty good with a weapon of choice, then they'll all look the same. It's tempting to do try to be a jack of all trades when you are so few points, because you can limit your weaknesses. But if everyone does it, then they will all be the same.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Combat movement hits a wall, too, generally at the point where you can get across the map with a half move. I suppose you could draw the line at lapping the battlemat with a half move

[sbarron]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Combat movement hits a wall' date=' too, generally at the point where you can get across the map with a half move. I suppose you could draw the line at lapping the battlemat with a half move [/quote']At those point levels, I think the game would have to go cosmic. Megascale hexes would almost be a must. PC's fighting against giant space monsters, giant alien starships, flying to the other side of the moon, stuff like that. You'd have to think on a whole different scale.

[Mentor]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

When I hear concerns about Hero breaking down a higher levels, it usually has to do with the inability to satisfactorily replicate Superman or the Silver Surfer as a PC.

 

One problem is that DC never really quantified how strong Superman really is nor has Marvel really specified just what a hit from Thor while wielding Mjolner can't break.

 

I have often heard gamers refer to things like the time that "Superman spun the Earth so fast that it went back in time" or "Thor actually moved the Midgard Serpent" as if these "ultimate" examples of powerful supers in any way represent part of a scaleable system. These guys are the extremes.

 

Coversely, if a GM and players want to have a campaign at Superman/Thor levels, give everyone 1500 points and declare that number to arbitrarily be top level. Compared to 250 and 350 point supers, it sure will be.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

On that note; has anyone worked up stats for God (aka. "Yaweh"' date=' or "Jehovah")? S/he should be able to be built for at least 500,000 character points.[/quote']

I'm afraid I don't know who the author is, but I ran across this a loooong time ago. If things don't look quite right, that's because it's 4th Ed and I've not taken the time to update it to FREd.

 

-----

 

IN THE BEGINNING

 

In the beginning, there was God (SPD 12, 1,000,000 point Cosmic Power Pool [Omnipotence], All Senses In The Book, Interdimensional, with +90 Telescopic, 30 levels overall, and 100d6 Telepathy Area Effect area doubled 90 times, Sense And Detect Anything Left Out [Omniscience], 270 levels Growth, Always On, Desolid, Always On, Invisibility to All Sense Groups, Always On [Omnipresence], Perk: God)

 

On Phase 1, God shifts 11,475 points of His power pool into a 30d6 ranged Autofire Transformation Attack Area Effect Radius with 90 doublings of area (+22.5, volume of the universe), creating the heavens and the earth. [END cost = 1148]

 

On Phase 2, He soliloquized, ("Let There Be Light!"), demonstrated His power with a 2000d6 Flash Explosion, Loses 1d6 every 36,000,000 hexes (+6.5), Uncontrolled Continuous 0 END (cheaper than one charge lasting several billion years) and unleashed a 2000d6 Presence Attack. However, as He had not yet created anyone else to use the Presence Attack on, this had no game effect.

 

On Phase 3, He shifted 1350 points of His power pool into 100STR Telekinesis, Area Effect Radius with 18 doublings of area (+4.5, volume of the Earth), and separated the waters and the earth. [END = 135]

 

On Phase 4, God used a 3d6 Entangle Autofire Area Effect Radius with 18 doublings of area (+4.5, slightly less than the surface area of the Earth) with the special effect of plant growth, using up another 210 points of His power pool. [END = 21]

 

On Phase 5, God used His Transformation Attack again, limiting the active points to only the surface of the Earth (reduce area doubling to 18, new active cost of 6,075) and created living things in the 0-500 active point range, all with the No Fine Manipulation limitation. [END = 608]

 

On Phase 6, God took an Incompetent DNPC 14- (Adam, all normal stats, Perk: Dominion over all the beasts of the land, air and sea, Life Support: Slowed Aging, Psych Lim: No knowledge of good and evil, Psych Lim: Gullible). He also shifted 4,000 points of His power pool to REC.

 

On Phase 7, God took a much needed Recovery, regaining all the END he spent.

[lemming]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

At high levels the system doesn't really breakdown, but there are some different aspects.

 

Killing attacks do more knockback after 7d6 for example.

 

However, I don't have a problem at high levels. I think the game is better at the 500-800 point range. However, you have to make sure that the characters are balanced with each other and the universe. But that's at any level, it just takes a little more attention to detail the higher you go.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

In my opinion the HERO System is both "Robust" and "Scalable".

 

Though some things might get a little ridiculous at high power levels, like insane Knockback. These things tend to show the systems superhero roots, but are not broken per se, just perhaps not suitable for all campaign settings.

 

Personally Ive never had problems dialing in the feel I want for various power levels regardless of the points involved. The System has always been able to accomodate me, with a lot of flexibility in going either wide or deep or both in scope.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Yes, Hero System "breaks" at higher levels. Somewhere around 1000 points or so (perhaps as little as 600 points).

 

At this level, a 1000 point Batman can't compete with a 1000 point Superman. He isn't Batman anymore, he's either Iron Man with a bat motif or Flash with the "I have already superhumanly dodged (or partially dodged) out of the way of that attack that would have surely killed me."

 

Simular to hitting that level in AD&D where the magic-users lay waste with mass kill spells and the fighter just keeps the bad guys away long enough for the casting.

 

Not quite the same examples but I feel this is true. I'm currently running a campaign where I asked the players to build standard 300 point starting characters. Then we had a session of "story telling" where we collectively created a history of a few years with these characters, inserting into the game world, and coming out the other side with 500 point characters. I asked folks to spend their points in increments from 300 to 500... or I built characters for them. I was very happy with the results (not too much min-maxing, and some very clear differentiation in powers and skills and personalities and everything) but what has happened is that the 500 point brick... Coal, a large rock and ember being of massive strength and defense... is totally within concept and WAY, WAY, WAY more powerful than the others... Geist, a mystic soul manipulator, desol type... Serenity, a highly trained agent with the ability to read and manipulate/increase/remove fear... and Legionnaire, a soldier with the ability to drain powers and take them for himself.

 

Coal is ripping apart alien war-bots with massive strength... and the others could be killed by attacks the bounce off of him. Their concepts are more flexible and have better "role playing" opportunities than Coal, but trying to balance fun combat that is challenging for one but not flat out lethal for the others is tough. (My players are not rules lawyer min-maxers, either, so they don't strategize ways to optimize the use of their powers, even when it might be a good idea.)

 

I do find this imbalance of concept vs. game play defenses/attacks, to be much more of an issue the higher the levels you go. Batman may be the same amount of points as Superman, but he's never going to beat Doomsday using powers and skills. (Storytelling... yeah, could be interesting, but not based on raw Hero system numbers).

 

On the other side of this...

I've long term characters in my campaign pushing 600+ points, and while their personalities and motivations and SFX are very different, the players began to notice that they were becoming "stat wise" more and more similar. One was a TK master, one a nuclear flame powered dude, and the other a powerful psi... but many powers over lapped. All could fly, had force fields, and projected energy. All had some mental defense and power defense, etc. It all made sense and was in keeping with their concepts, but lost was that sense of differentiation and playing a certain role within the team. Not completely lost, mind you... but it was interesting that we began feelign this at 600 points. I can only imagine it getting worse the more points you get. (In comics, think Captain Marve, Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, etc. Visually very different, motivation and the like different... but to tell the truth, I could build a single "generic" cosmic hero build, and just describe the powers differently and play all of them with the same basic stats.)

 

Differentiation breaks down at high levels f the concepts are at all similar. If the concepts are very different, then you might get radical power level problems. Both are extremes, but both need to be considered.

[Kal'daka]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I agree with the differentiation starteing to fade at higher levels but the game and the characters do not. I run a Galactic Champions based game ... characters start at 750 plus up to 150 disadvantages. You still get the typical sterotypicals... mentalists, bricks, mystics, energy projectors and so forth ... you just have to get a little more creative with your villians as a GM. Our basis for adventures is the Babylon 5 universe about 10 yrs after excalibur... I have also incorporated magic and dimensional spanning into my adventures .. I mean the galaxy is large enough but when you start throwing in other dimensions and alternate dimensions it can get easy for adventure ideas and villians real quick. The Mystic world and Arcane Adversaries sourcebooks are also awesome motivators for adventures as well as Galactic Champions... which as all kinds of sidebar notes on adventures and ways ti increase or decrease the potency of the villians.

[That Masked Man]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

It seems to me that the system does start breaking down at extremely high point levels (1000+) just because of SPD issues. But it also seems like you could house rule a new speed chart with more (shorter) segments if you really needed to. Otherwise it seems to scale well at the high end. At the low end, as characters get closer and closer to the average man, the system's ability to handle differences between them breaks down. I don't think HERO works well for playing average characters, but then again, most "adventure" fiction deals with above average characters, whether it is books, comics, movies, or television. If you really want to play average man on the street characters, HERO may not be for you, but for the rest of us who want to play heroic (or superheroic) characters, it works great.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

It has NEVER come up in play, but I have always been of the mind that a character with a speed higher than 12 will simply get 2 phases in some of the phases.

 

Like, "Captain OH MY GOD Speed 14" has 14 speed. In phase 12 he would get an action at his DEX of 30, then after all actions have gone, then he would get another one. Same deal for phase 6.

 

Although taking away speed 12 as the max you end up with characters with speed 48 and such.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

The system absolutely DOES break down at higher power levels. I've experienced it.

 

We were playing "Pan Galactic Champions" and I was facing UberGalactus, a Galactus clone with 512 duplicates. I wasn't too worried about them, so I ordered my follower, The Beyonder, to take care of the problem while I dealt with the rift in space-time that was connected to 1024 other universe's initial Big Bangs.

 

Well, when the GM rolled the damage dice for UberGalactus, the kitchen table broke down.

[Rapier]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

It seems to me that the system does start breaking down at extremely high point levels (1000+) just because of SPD issues. But it also seems like you could house rule a new speed chart with more (shorter) segments if you really needed to. Otherwise it seems to scale well at the high end. At the low end' date=' as characters get closer and closer to the average man, the system's ability to handle differences between them breaks down. I don't think HERO works well for playing average characters, but then again, most "adventure" fiction deals with above average characters, whether it is books, comics, movies, or television. If you really want to play average man on the street characters, HERO may not be for you, but for the rest of us who want to play heroic (or superheroic) characters, it works great.[/quote']

I have in the past had/allowed characters with over a 12 SPD. With an 18 SPD you would act on every phase and twice on 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 (SPD 12 + SPD 6).

[lemming]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I have in the past had/allowed characters with over a 12 SPD. With an 18 SPD you would act on every phase and twice on 2' date=' 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 (SPD 12 + SPD 6).[/quote']

That's how we did it as well. The second phase happened at 1/2 dex with us.

[OddHat]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Many of the examples I see in this thread of Hero System breaking down assume that the GM has set no campaign limits.

 

Personally, I am now running a 750 point game, and have set a SPD limit of 8. If a player came in saying he wanted to spend 200 points for +20 SPD, I'd say "No".

 

The more points you allow, the more carefully you'll have to look at characters and active point limits in each area, and the more carefully you'll have to decide what you will and won't allow in your games.

 

I can't really see what you'd do in a 3500 point game. Gods with fleets of Star-Ships maybe.

[OddHat]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I can't really see what you'd do in a 3500 point game. Gods with fleets of Star-Ships maybe.

 

Thinking about it, some kinds of Star Hero/Galactic Champions game might work fairly well at around 1500 points; say a Grey Lensman game, or some Anime.

[That Masked Man]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Many of the examples I see in this thread of Hero System breaking down assume that the GM has set no campaign limits.

 

Personally, I am now running a 750 point game, and have set a SPD limit of 8. If a player came in saying he wanted to spend 200 points for +20 SPD, I'd say "No".

 

The more points you allow, the more carefully you'll have to look at characters and active point limits in each area, and the more carefully you'll have to decide what you will and won't allow in your games.

 

I can't really see what you'd do in a 3500 point game. Gods with fleets of Star-Ships maybe.

 

My problem with setting campaign limits like that is that if you set the limts low enough that everyone can max all of them out then you end up with characters who are functionally identical, differing only in flavor. If you are going to do that, why bother with the points at all? Campaign limits are great, but you need them high enough that no one can have max attack, max defense, max SPD, max Dex, etc all at the same time.

[OddHat]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

My problem with setting campaign limits like that is that if you set the limts low enough that everyone can max all of them out then you end up with characters who are functionally identical' date=' differing only in flavor. If you are going to do that, why bother with the points at all? Campaign limits are great, but you need them high enough that no one can have max attack, max defense, max SPD, max Dex, etc all at the same time.[/quote']

 

Or you can do a character review, and tell your players "Dan, the Brick slot is already full, but you can be an energy projector, and you can't spend all those points on defense; you can have one X active point power, that's it. You say you have points left over? How about a base, a vehicle, and some followers?"

[megaplayboy]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Thinking about it' date=' some kinds of Star Hero/Galactic Champions game might work fairly well at around 1500 points; say a Grey Lensman game, or some Anime.[/quote']

Avengers League Z

[Zephrosyne]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I must be the house moderate. I couldn't see me having any NPC in my game that required more than 1,200 points to make. While I am not overly generous with the points that I would allow in the game, I am fairly liberal when it comes to allowing players to spend them.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

I think many problems encountered by people on this thread is not so much due to "system breaking" but more to how the system was used.

 

Hero is a toolkit providing a lot of flexibility, power and freedom and as they say, "With great powers come great responsability". To make a game ork at *any* level, there is a minimum of control required. Of course the less point you have to spend to less abuses and balance issues arise but still, you have to adhere to a certain way of doing things, This "way" varies with genre, starting points, groups, etc.

 

For example, our first Hero games, many years ago, was built on 375 points. Excited by the freedom provided by the system, every players decided to create the hero he wanted and the gm was quite happy to let us do our thing. The result was less than sterling. At 375 points, our group was totally unbalanced. While a martial artist could bring down Viper's mecha with a few power kicks, the powered armor could not even hit one. Hero was not at fault here, we were. We just didn't know how to use that amount of freedom.

 

Now, after many campaigns at different game level, I can say that we didn't suffer such imbalance in a long time. We have played games starting at 75 points and others at 1500 points and everything went quite smoothly. Sure, there is always a player succeeding to have more bang for his money but never in an outrageous way anymore.

 

We curently play in a 600 points campaign and I must say it is one of our most enjoyable so far. Characters are well balanced, everybody has his tricks but nobody is a one trick monkey either.

 

It all comes to controlling the freedom given to us and using it intelligently.

 

Now to answer the initial question. "Does the system break at high level?" I would instinctively answer "Yes" just because everything tends to break at some point. I suspect this limit must be quite high (significantly higher than 1500 points) but have no clue were exactly. Hero is one of the most flexible, scalable system I know of and I have never reached that limit.

 

If the question would be "Can we break the system?", I would wholeheartedly answer "Yes, you can do it at any level! I know, by our own faults we did it at 375 points"...

[tracer]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

In the beginning' date=' there was God (SPD 12, 1,000,000 point Cosmic Power Pool [Omnipotence']

... with the -1/4 Limitation "Does Not Work Versus Iron Chariots". (c.f. Judges 1:19)

[BNakagawa]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

Sort of. The game doesn't work very well if the CVs diverge by more than 5 or 6 points (oddball constructions like AE STR nonwithstanding)

 

Higher point values allow for more diversity, which requires more GM intervention to keep CVs, attacks and defenses in proportion to eachother.

 

Unless you happen to like one shot kills, that is.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Does Hero System "break" at higher levels, and if so, at what level?

 

The system absolutely DOES break down at higher power levels. I've experienced it.

 

We were playing "Pan Galactic Champions" and I was facing UberGalactus, a Galactus clone with 512 duplicates. I wasn't too worried about them, so I ordered my follower, The Beyonder, to take care of the problem while I dealt with the rift in space-time that was connected to 1024 other universe's initial Big Bangs.

 

Well, when the GM rolled the damage dice for UberGalactus, the kitchen table broke down.

 

 

Can I suggest a sturdier table and smaller dice? I think that's going to be in 6th edition.