I Have In My Hand A List...

[Agent X]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

It is something that has not been explored but most Supers are related to who the writer is. Thus with DC and Marvel almost all the wartime supers are invariably American as the writers are goin with what they know.

 

Stalin could have supers purged or Beria the head of the NKVD could. On the other hand the supers could be staunch communists. Remember the Red Army and Russia as a whole suffered more casualties than anyone. 9 Million Army dead. Around 18 Million civilians. Who is to say that his supers weren't killed in the Great Patriotic War, the Russian Civil War of the 20s or in the purges of the 30s.

Well, supers don't purge easily. I'm thinking I would have to take the direction that Stalin is either not really in charge or is protected by technology likely procured from the abortive 1938 War of the Worlds that almost always shows up in the background of a super universe. If he's not really in charge, who is? Some High Tech Commie Mastermind? Mentalist? What?

[death tribble]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Well' date=' supers don't purge easily. I'm thinking I would have to take the direction that Stalin is either not really in charge or is protected by technology likely procured from the abortive 1938 War of the Worlds that almost always shows up in the background of a super universe. If he's not really in charge, who is? Some High Tech Commie Mastermind? Mentalist? What?[/quote']

I don't agree with the first part of this. Most supers as written for the time period can be killed by a bullet, grenade or bomb. We are working on the basis of hindsight in a lot of cases. Most heroes or supers don't get more powerful until after the A-bombs explode in 1945. But Batman never does.

 

And if Stalin is not in charge what about Hitler, Mussolini, Churchill or Roosevelt ? Are they not in charge during the period of the war as it will make a massive difference during the period.

Assuming the war goes ahead, is Communism weaker or not afterwards ?

All the politicians had very strong wills and a lot might be different if they are not there. As soon as you make a change as big as this it has a snowball effect.

[Agent X]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

I don't agree with the first part of this. Most supers as written for the time period can be killed by a bullet, grenade or bomb. We are working on the basis of hindsight in a lot of cases. Most heroes or supers don't get more powerful until after the A-bombs explode in 1945. But Batman never does.

 

And if Stalin is not in charge what about Hitler, Mussolini, Churchill or Roosevelt ? Are they not in charge during the period of the war as it will make a massive difference during the period.

Assuming the war goes ahead, is Communism weaker or not afterwards ?

All the politicians had very strong wills and a lot might be different if they are not there. As soon as you make a change as big as this it has a snowball effect.

And a Russian Version of Batman would never get killed even though he isn't bulletproof.

[death tribble]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

A lot of what was happening was known. At least enough to get a feel for things.

 

People can find excuses for a lot of things. Fascism was real, and so was counter-revolutionary terrorism. No, they don't justify all the Stalinist crimes and nonsense, but the threshold is a lot higher than is often appreciated.

 

In addition, a lot of leftist sentiment was actually related to opposition to things like racism, support for anti-colonial struggles, and things like that. Stalin's antics were actually irrelevant to that. The CP was one of the few political organisations to regard African-Americans as human beings. That, deservedly, earned them credit that no amount of nonsense overseas could entirely take away.

 

Finally, there were, of course, the Trotskyists, who to a large extent were the people who had actually blown the whistle on the Purges in the first place, way back in the 30s. They were communists explicitly _despite_ the crimes of Stalinism.

 

And then there are anarchists, social democrats, left liberals and so on - people who would simply be swept up into a single bucket by the witchhunters.

 

In other words, leftists in the real world in the 40s and 50s were not fools, not dupes, not ignorant, and not monsters. They were sane and often quite superb human beings.

 

It's rather a shame that their counterparts in a superhero roleplaying universe are the Bad Guys. But they are, usually.

Knowledge and proof are two different things. Most of the time all people had to go on was the word of the people involved. Similar thing applied to the Final Solution. People were getting out and saying what was going on but they had no independent proof. Many Jews themselves did not believe it. Until the camps start to be liberated by the Russians who filmed it.

If you were speaking for or against someone and there was only your word, where was the bias ?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

... Stalin is either not really in charge or is protected by technology ... If he's not really in charge' date=' who is? Some High Tech Commie Mastermind? Mentalist? What?[/quote']

 

Grigory Rasputin.

[Whitewings]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

One interesting possibility for McCarthyism in a world with supers is that he made the mistake of bringing a respected hero (who had no Communist ties) before the Committee, and broadcasting the session. IRL, it was the first and only HUAC broadcast that basically killed it, or so I've read.

 

Without McCarthy's witch-hunts, the hunt for communist agents (a real threat back then) was taken over by people who were actually competent, and a new agency is formed, one with the goal of tracking superhuman activities, and assisting those supers who want to, to either retire quietly or to work covertly. Most supers figure it's a good idea, and they go "under the radar." A few, of course, don't, but the impression with most people is that supers are mostly gone. This lasts until about the mid-60s, when social activism comes back in a big way, and the new supers decide they don't want to hide their light under a bushel. And thus, the new age of supers begins.

[assault]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

IRL' date=' it was the first and only HUAC broadcast that basically killed it, or so I've read.[/quote']

 

McCarthy was a Senator, and head of a Senate committee. HUAC was a committee of the House of Representatives, which continued operating well into the 60s, although with diminishing political effect.

 

McCarthy was hosed by a combination of being broadcast on television, plus running up against the prestige of the Army.

 

Most supers figure it's a good idea, and they go "under the radar." A few, of course, don't, but the impression with most people is that supers are mostly gone. This lasts until about the mid-60s, when social activism comes back in a big way, and the new supers decide they don't want to hide their light under a bushel. And thus, the new age of supers begins.

 

Well, I prefer the Silver Age to begin in the mid-50s, but otherwise, yeah, that would work.

 

My own explanation would include an emphasis on how rare supers are to begin with. If there are no more than a couple of dozen heroes, many non-powered, then the problem can go away very quickly.

[assault]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

A belated thought on Hermit's story:

 

This whole setup has "Darkseid" written all over it.

 

Or, more generally, "mastermind supervillain". Say, Ultra-Humanite, the Red Skull, Kang, or someone of that sort.

 

Sure, it might just be an outbreak of premature Iron Ageishness, but my character would start looking for Hitler's Brain. It's got to be around here somewhere...

[Powerhouse]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

The use of the Red Scare to shut down super heroes comes up mostly from the JSA comics (and indeed it's happening right now in JSA- pick it up!).

 

Anyway, I think that it came about to give an explanation in the comic world why they stopped having adventures when in reality it was because the super hero comic book industry went bust after WW2 and newer characters were used for the Silver Age and new fans. I'd say also a writer or two with

certain political views but Roy Thomas' writings (if only to reflect the Golden Age) tend to be really patriotic.

 

You may want to consider in your world that most supers simply came out into the open, or got their powers, due to the war. After the job was done, they just wanted to settle down and raise families. If super villains were pressed into service, they could have similar attitudes. That combined with general, firm feelings among the populace that "it's time to get back to normal" could also help explain a lessening of public superheroing.

[Powerhouse]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

As noted, the threat of nuclear war would also deter supers from going toe to toe with Communists. Perhaps, shortly after the Russians showed that they had the bomb as well, the President quietly asks the supers to lay low to avoid provoking a strike from a Russia who can only counter the heroes with a nuke. Or Stalin could even do a Breshnev like speech, complete with a shoe, that "we will bury you and your supers under an atomic fire."

 

Or, if you want to be dramatic, the first atomic bomb could be seen as a sign to retire. Super power was now over shadowed by atomic power. Yes, the Liberty League is powerful but even the pale before such awesome and utter destruction. A power greater than that of the super is in the hand of man and already, the time of the super has passed.... or so it seems.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

A power greater than that of the super is in the hand of man and already' date=' the time of the super has passed.... [/quote']

 

And then the flying saucer lands in front of the White House.

[st barbara]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

To "Death Tribble" I read somewhere that McCarthy's downfall started when he attempted to get advantages for a staffer or something who had been drafted; when the U S army said "no!" he fell back on his tried and trusted method of brandishing a "List" of Communists and sympathisers who were in the military or defence industries. The army attorney at the hearings "called" him on the list by demanding that he produce it and turn it over to the F B I "So that we can all sleep safely in our beds". McCarthy DIDN'T have his much touted list, or couldn't produce it, and the rest of HUAC eventually backed away from him. Does the new information that people are talking about prove that McCarthy's "list" was genuine ? If so, where did he get it from, and why wouldn't he produce it on demand ?

[Metaphysician]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

To the best of my knowledge, McCarthy's "list" was hot air he touted. Most of the genuine spies and plants revealed by Venona were, unfortunately, not suspected.