I Have In My Hand A List...

[Agent 13]

Alright, you alternate historians, riddle me this:

 

It's become something of a cliche in superheroic universes that with the rise of McCarthyism, all but a few heroes retire and/or drop out of the public eye in some way. So what happens if McCarthy gets discredited right off the bat, whether from some Senator or patriotic super actually having the balls to say "You're a liar, and this isn't how we do things in this country", or pictures of Tailgunner Joe's (and his staff's) private peccadilloes turning up in the scandal rags, or from him being drunk and slamming his car into a tree or something?

 

What would be the effect on the world, both Normal and Super, if the Second Red Scare had never happened?

 

(I realize that McCarthy was only one the movers behind the Scare, and that Stalin and the Soviet Union was a real and evil force at the time, but let's not get too far into that discussion, and instead concern ourselves with the Superheroic aspects of things...)

[Kristopher]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Well, real-life effect, without the post-WWII witchhunt era in general, comics never go Silver Age, I think.

 

As for the in-setting effects on superhumans themselves...let me think about that one for a bit. I'll come back to it.

[Edsel]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

I always kind of felt that McCarthy just capitalized on the fears that had already started to take root. I imagine that if he had been shot down that somebody else would have capitalized off of it. For better or worse.

[Batman]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

You would have to justify that McCarthy was indeed wrong. I agree, the man was a bastard...but there has been a lot of recent literature [e.g. look at William F. Buckley's new biography on Ol' Joe] showing that a lot of the people on the blacklists actually were in correspondence with the Soviets or with the Communist Party. And with the unveiling of the CIA's confidential Venona Project, just recently released to the public, its evident that a lot of the Red Scare hype really did have grounds on reality, if blown out of proportion [the Rosenburgs really were Communist spies, etc.].

 

Of course...this is alternate history. None of this might have been true.

 

But one question...will J. Edgar Hoover be a flaming homosexual in your world too?

[Rapier]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Alright, you alternate historians, riddle me this:

 

It's become something of a cliche in superheroic universes that with the rise of McCarthyism, all but a few heroes retire and/or drop out of the public eye in some way. So what happens if McCarthy gets discredited right off the bat, whether from some Senator or patriotic super actually having the balls to say "You're a liar, and this isn't how we do things in this country", or pictures of Tailgunner Joe's (and his staff's) private peccadilloes turning up in the scandal rags, or from him being drunk and slamming his car into a tree or something?

 

What would be the effect on the world, both Normal and Super, if the Second Red Scare had never happened?

 

(I realize that McCarthy was only one the movers behind the Scare, and that Stalin and the Soviet Union was a real and evil force at the time, but let's not get too far into that discussion, and instead concern ourselves with the Superheroic aspects of things...)

Whew. That's a toughy. I think it's rather possible that the cold war may not have become what it was, or that it might have been more drawn out as the US had to catch up. That doesn't make much sense, lemme backup a mite.

 

Without McCarthy, the american people are as anti-pinko as they were. Senators don't ok the increases in military spending, the american people don't clammer for additional military power and the general public is never afraid enough for the government to invest money into PR campaigns (eg Duck & Cover). Because of this:

 

- Maybe Russia is able to launch an attack we are unprepared for

- Maybe Russia isn't afraid of our power and goes expansionist (it seems EVERYONE wants to own Poland and Czechoslovakia)

- Maybe Russia doesn't build up its military

- Maybe Russia and the US don't have a cold war so enter into a cooperative relationship (imagine the possibilities if the US and Russia worked together on the space race [for instance])

- Maybe there is no difference. You've already pointed out that there was a bit of commie-phobia even without McCarthy. Obviously, there had to be. Otherwise people wouldn't have bought it hook line and sinker.

- Maybe there was no real difference (if McCarthy didn't do it, maybe Joe Smithers did [i just made him up])

- Maybe there wasn't much change other than the US got a late start (maybe Russia didn't fall until 10 years later)

 

Before you can think of anything, you are going to need to figure out what happened to the Normal World. The superheroic world is going to change quite a bit depending on what is happening with the Normal World.

[CBikle]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Well, the movie industry would have been a lot different. Those that were blacklisted would have continued their work while others would never have gotten their start. The movies may have become more or less progressive.

 

The Korean War may have become a more popular war depending on how quickly McCarthy self-destructed and if super-heroes get involved in Korea(because they were never blacklisted) , it'll definitely be a more popular war.

 

If not blacklisted, supers might've continued their momentum and taken out organized crime and a few might've even revealed their ID and ventured into politics.

 

If the Korean War is won, the Vietnam War wouldn't have happened (at least not in a way that we're familiar with).

 

Nixon may have become more or less popular depending on whether he got pulled into McCarthy's downfall or was never strongly associated with him in the first place. Just as Nixon was overshadowed by JFK, he probably would have been completely eclipsed by supers venturing into politics.

 

For reasons to complex to go into, Re-Run would never have tried to tape that Dooby Brothers concert.

[Bucky]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

(I realize that McCarthy was only one the movers behind the Scare, and that Stalin and the Soviet Union was a real and evil force at the time, but let's not get too far into that discussion, and instead concern ourselves with the Superheroic aspects of things...)

Actually that was where I was going to go. With McCarthy discredited, that makes any further investigation into communist infiltration difficult and discredited as well. They would then have free reign in government and culture, and you would see supes as well as the general populace moving toward a more, well, communist mind set.

 

The wall would not fall in 1989, and even this country (US) might see a rise of a more socialist style, if not communist government. With the drop in GDP, military capability, cultural sameness, loss of civil liberties, (all in the interest of the greater good of the State, of course) that accompanies any such takeover.

 

If the US does not fall, it will still be far weaker militarily and politically in the world. Will be constantly undermined in any efforts to foment democracy or even alignment toward the US. East Germany will absorb West Germany (instead of the other way around.) Latin America will all go the route of Cuba. As will Africa, and South East Asia.

 

Israel would be a weird case. The Soviets supported it until the 1967 war. (Actually, the USSR was an early supporter, but relations worsened in the 50's and the Soviets moved to Egypt and Syria instead, just prior to that war.) With Joe out, would relations between the USSR and Israel suffer? Or would the Israelis stay friendly? With a weak US, and the rest of the world under Soviet domination in one form or another, the 1967 war would be radically different. Either Israel would cease to exist, or there would have been no war in 1967.

 

Supes would be required to work for the state, and some might be assigned to the secret police. But then, somewhere, will rise a champion, who will take on these "bad" supes, and although he, she, it or they, will be branded "reactionary traitorous counter-revolutionaries" and an "Enemy to the People" (i.e. villians) such rebels will not see themselves as such.

 

Nor would such rebels gain much support in the general populace. Freedom is a pretty scary deal to most folks. The Nanny state may not be perfect, but it does relieve one of the responsibilities for failure. Any rebel trying to return America to the ideals of an individual's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, will find it a VERY tough road.

[Superskrull]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Well, I'm unsure as to the purely social aspects of a lack of McCarthyism but when you want to delve into the wierdo zone of superhero stories remember that the superhero is the natural enemy of the Red Menace. Since the primary source we've got for proper speculation and wild exageration is the rather odd dynamic of the superhero yarn, we've gotta hit the books and see what those Godless Commies were up to in what passes for the real (four-color) world.

 

DC is in luck, really, it had a much higher concentration of active heroes after WWII. Many of these stalwarts were already happily smashing the plots of the Commies whenever they found them. Look at Superman, for example. Since he'd already evolved from a superhuman vigilante and social reformer into the staunch supporter of 'Truth, Justice & the American Way', so to speak. Supes was always willing to lend a hand when the forces of Communism tried to subvert our way of life, and by subvert, I mean threaten Western civilization with weird one-of-a-kind weapons, gadgets and disposable superhumans. Batman too could and did unravel many a plot of the rascally Reds, often cleaning their clocks in the process. The later generations of Green Lanterns Flashes, Atoms, Hawkpeople and the like were almost considered agents of various American Intelligence Agencies that had nothing to do BUT foil the evil commies. Once can only presume that like the later heroes, our earlier models would continue to drop everything to work tirelessly for the government they had always supported.

 

Over at Marvel, it's kinda tricky to say, though it's a safe bet there would always be a Captain America kicking Ivan's pinko butt and that Nick Fury would be there to bust caps in the enemies of Democracy. What's really funny is the intimate involvement of Commies and the Communist threat in the origins of many of Marvel's icons.

Fantastic Four -gotta get to the moon before the Reds do, hence cosmic ray-induced wackiness and eventually we get evil Commie super-apes anyhow.

Iron Man- kidnapped after being mortally wounded in Communist Asia (somewhere), Tony whips up a Commie-smashing suit of power armor (with the aid of Dr Yinsen) and walks out over the flaming bodies of his Red captors

Iron Man would later be sworn enemy of the Communist threat and prompt many Russian superagents to be developed just to battle him, like Crimson Dynamo, the Titanium Man, the Unicorn

Thor- he scared the piss outa the Red Chinese, they created the Radioactive Man just to counter his awesome might being in the hands of America

The Hulk- dude, the Commies are responsible for him in the first place, if they hadn't been lurking around screwing with our Gamma Bombs, we'd be knee-deep in crazy green menaces today. Heck, one of the toughest Gamma-mutates is the Abomination, once Emil Blonsky, the Commie spy

Spider-Man -yes, even Spidey himself boasts a Commie or so in his Rogues Gallery, namely the Rhino. OK, so he isn't exactly a Rhodes scholar but he's a big superstrong bulletproof Commie nonetheless.

Ant-Man -after his wife, Maria, gets killed by the Commies for defecting to the US of A, ol' Hank finds himself beset by multiple Commie menaces like giant Red bugs, evil Commie gorillas like the Beast From Berlin, and goofy people with only code-names and guns fighting for the Evil Empire.

 

I could ramble further but all I can say is that when it comes to fighting the Reds in the comics, step aside and let the spandex set do it. After all, with a deficit of Nazi ass to kick, they're hungry for new targets for their Fists of Justice or whatever they use. All McCarthyaccomplished in driving heroes underground or into retirement is that somebody would pick up the name a few weeks later and the guy running at super-speed, talking to birds or shooting green ray beams has a new outfit and a different Secret ID but the same motivation.

[assault]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

The key point is that the witchhunt began under Truman in the 40s and continued into the 60s. McCarthy was only of the figures involved, and was really only important for a relatively brief period. You could take him out of the picture and everything would go on more or less unchanged.

 

The Red Scare was part of the process of mobilising US society to fight the Cold War. It was necessary, not optional, if capitalism was to survive. Eliminating McCarthy would make no difference.

[Kristopher]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

ISTM, though, that McCarthy and gang's "contribution" was to take the thing completely over the top and go after a lot of people who had been communists or socialists earlier in their lives / before WWII, to go after harmless communists who had nothing to do with government or anything else sensitive, to go after people who were friends or family of suspected or harmless leftists, etc, etc, etc. It really was a witch hunt, and all they had to do was accuse someone of being a Pinko Commie, and the accused would often be ruined. They coerced testimony against one person by threatening to accuse another.

 

 

The whole idea that McCarthy and The Red Scare "saved the US from the Commies" is...

 

nevermind, I'm not going to get into that here.

[Speedball]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

I always kind of felt that McCarthy just capitalized on the fears that had already started to take root. I imagine that if he had been shot down that somebody else would have capitalized off of it. For better or worse.

 

I concur. McCarthy wasn't the only one who was hopping on this issue. It would just have borne fruit on a different tree. Look at the hearings Nixon was conducting in the 50s, for example. McCarthyism, while bearing his name and undoubtedly promoted by him, was a trend that would've gone on without him.

[Hermit]

2004, another world thankfully not our own

 

Ultra gazed out over the streets of Philadelphia’s historic area. His telescopic senses moved from person to person in the crowd checking for any of the usual clues. He noticed one man reading a book. That was rare these days, but the title seemed... ah, it was history. It looked to be a brief summary of the McCarthy era.

 

Those, he thought, were hard times. Super heroes had been put on trial, men and women who'd used their extraordinary gifts for the greater good suddenly having their very loyalty challenged by "Tailgunner Joe" and his cronies. It was almost a hard battle, and many of the super hero set wanted to retreat until the climate became friendlier again, until it needed and wanted them again. In the end though, McCarthy had chosen to pick on the wrong team.

 

The American League were not only patriotic, they were versatile. Among their numbers was an American icon, a super strong man, a detective extraordinaire, a beloved starlet turned super heroine, and ....a telepath. The senator soon found his own dirty laundry aired out, even as the team leader, a skilled orator in his own right, came prepared with the list gathered by the team of real communist threats the Senator had missed entirely. Joe and his fellow witch hunters not only had their every shocking secret dragged out... they were shown up as incompetents. The American League had done what the commission had claimed to be doing, but they had done it RIGHT.

 

It was a breaking point in history, one that made Ultra wonder what it must have been like to be there. The United States was finally safe as a new use was found for heroes they'd thought were no longer needed. By public outcry and demand, the embarrassed politicians, perhaps fearful of having all of their secrets exposed if they turned against the heroes, turned over full federal powers to the American League and other heroes willing to work with them so that further rooting out of threats to the nation could continue.

 

It only made sense, Ultra knew, after all, if God created each man equally, then when a man elevated himself up beyond his brethren, that too must be God's plan. Divine Right, was not, as outdated pre-American dogma would have it, dictated by blood, but rather by deed and apparent chance. When a man lived through a lab accident only to gain special powers, what could it be called but a miracle? Of course, the more secular took the tact that every human promoted himSELF to greatness, but both sides agreed that clearly there was evidence of being above the common man in such people. Darwin's own theories, said the experts, concurred.

 

The American League grew and grew, by necessity; and Ultra was one of thousands. Every single ALer was needed though, for the population of the country was quite sizable, even with the constant weeding out of the sexual deviants, the lesser races, and the political insurgents seeking to seed their own agendas into this wonderful country. Thank goodness laws such as the "Speedy Trial Bill" allowed him to pass judgments on the spot, other wise the justice system would be bogged down in months of paper work and useless lawyering.

 

Ultra frowned, he had become so lost in thought, he hadn't continued looking at his charges. The gentle man who was reading had been accosted by an older man; one speaking in hushed tones and trying to pull the young reader away. Ultra did not have super hearing. He was an 'eye' to use the system's naming classification for his sensory abilities, but fortunately all 'eyes' were taught lip reading. Ultra had gotten good at it, very good.

 

The young man was asking, "What do you mean it all went wrong?"

The elder's lips moved, "Here is not the place, come with me, and I'll show you, tell you. We learned the wrong lessons. Things that have been lost in our fear, the bill of rights, ever hear of it?"

Ultra arched a brow, that document had been judged too easily misinterpreted by the masses, and thus was no longer for public discourse. Such things might lead to sedition.

The young man bit his bottom lip, and then said, "No, what is it?"

"I'll show you," The old man smiled, "A copy I mean. It may just open your eyes..."

 

They began to walk off, trying to look normal, mistakenly thinking that they were unobserved. Ultra sighed, he had truly hoped that the young man would learn from his studies how wonderful it was to live in the greatest nation on Earth, to be grateful and supportive of it. Instead, some old fool was dragging him down the wrong path. He'd have to arrest them both.

 

The good news, however, was that if this old man was heading towards some sort of haven for such insurgency, Ultra should be able to follow them and close down a whole nest of the traitors before they could make their seditious thoughts action.

 

He smiled at that, it felt good to keep his nation safe, he glanced at the Bell nearby, and nodded, yes, that was the plan.

 

"Let Freedom ring" He smiled to himself, and began his work to save the city yet again.

[Highwayman]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Real world, not too much changes, I think. A few movies get made, a few people have easier lives. Maybe there’s a slight change in the tone of politics. If McCarthy’s not calling people “Commies†in the ‘50s, then maybe liberals aren’t calling people “fascists†in the ‘60s, and conservatives aren’t calling people “traitors†now.

 

Comic book world, as much change as you want. If Ultra Man isn’t drummed out of the hero biz, he could stop the Chinese in Korea, save Kennedy, whatever you want him to do. Or he could go back to fighting Dr. Malicious, like he did before, and history rolls on unchanged.

 

Of course, if your history had superheroes showing up in the ‘30s, like most do, the next generation would be taking over in the late ‘50s-early ‘60s anyway.

[Guest rbezold]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

I always kind of felt that McCarthy just capitalized on the fears that had already started to take root. I imagine that if he had been shot down that somebody else would have capitalized off of it. For better or worse.

 

And Dick Nixon would have been top of the list. There were/are plenty of oppurtunists willing to capitalize on the ignorance/fear of the public. And their agendas aren't always that obvious.

 

Maybe the wrong question is being asked here. If a Red Scare is almost inevitable, maybe the question should be which heroes get blacklisted, and what would that blacklisting entail?

[assault]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

The whole idea that McCarthy and The Red Scare "saved the US from the Commies" is...

 

nevermind, I'm not going to get into that here.

 

Yeah. I sat around for over half an hour trying to write a few sentences that weren't going to start a flamewar.

 

rbezold's suggestion for a change of focus is probably a good idea.

 

One idea I have toyed with in the past is to divide supers of this period into "Blue Masks" (that is, Red, White and...), "Black Masks" (unsanctioned vigilantes doing their business regardless) and a very few "Red Masks" (who mainly just maintain unfashionable ideas about social justice, although a few of them probably do have some communist sympathies). Obviously the different groups are prone to clash, although some of them probably maintain strained social ties across the categories...

 

Hmm. Assault would have been a "Red Mask" if he had been around then!

[zakueins]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Except there's one little ittie, bittie problem with this....

 

McCarthy had the tendency of being right. The American government at the time HAD a huge problem with Communists, or at least people whom were way too snuggly with despots. Check out the Verona Files (google it, at least)-NSA and the Army had been breaking KGB codes for years, even when they were ordered to stop reading USSR radio signals (by Truman, whom said he "trusted Uncle Joe" (Joseph Stalin) and only became an anti-Communist when the Republicans used the issue to run very successfully on).

 

For some better insights into the era, check out "The Redhunter" by William F. Buckley, or read the section in "Treason" by Ann Coulter talking about Verona, the HUAC, and McCarthy.

 

(Here's a very modern parallel-imagine if we discovered that quite a bit of the State Department today, including senior-level policy makers, were on the payroll of al-Queda and Saddam Hussain, were still in covert contact with senior members of the organization, and were un-repentant in their innocence even after being caught. That's the scale we're talking about here.)

 

Alright, you alternate historians, riddle me this:

 

It's become something of a cliche in superheroic universes that with the rise of McCarthyism, all but a few heroes retire and/or drop out of the public eye in some way. So what happens if McCarthy gets discredited right off the bat, whether from some Senator or patriotic super actually having the balls to say "You're a liar, and this isn't how we do things in this country", or pictures of Tailgunner Joe's (and his staff's) private peccadilloes turning up in the scandal rags, or from him being drunk and slamming his car into a tree or something?

 

What would be the effect on the world, both Normal and Super, if the Second Red Scare had never happened?

 

(I realize that McCarthy was only one the movers behind the Scare, and that Stalin and the Soviet Union was a real and evil force at the time, but let's not get too far into that discussion, and instead concern ourselves with the Superheroic aspects of things...)

[Moody Loner]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Thank you for reminding me why I'm not reading this thread.

 

Why not take the McCarthy-worship to NGD or http://www.freerepublic.net? I'm here to learn more about Champions.

[Guest rbezold]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Dude! Congress didn't shut down McCarthy because he was right, they shut him down because he was a loose cannon who was attacking EVERYBODY. Even a paranoic like J. Edgar Hoover couldn't defend this puppy.

[assault]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Thank you for reminding me why I'm not reading this thread.

 

Why not take the McCarthy-worship to NGD or http://www.freerepublic.net? I'm here to learn more about Champions.

 

It's potentially a very interesting thread, if flame wars can be avoided.

 

The main flame risk is, of course, from the barking mad McCarthyites. If we could convince them to go away and leave us alone, we could actually get on with exploring an interesting aspect of Silver Age settings. But they won't leave us alone.

 

Anyway, yesterday I outlined my "Blue/Black/Red Mask" schema. What do people think?

 

I can give some examples of characters that would fit into each category, drawn from those being published during the period:

 

"Blue" - Captain America (, Commie Smasher), Superman, Wonder Woman, Vigilante.

"Black" - Batman, Aquaman

"Red" - Johnny Quick, Martian Manhunter, Captain Comet, Green Arrow (see below).

 

Obviously, since this is a slightly tongue in cheek schema, these divisions are somewhat arbitrary. This is particularly true of the "Red Mask" category.

 

I'll explain the latter:

Johnny Quick: in the only contemporary (1953) JQ story I have read, Johnny reveals an undue concern for prison reform. And he wears red.

 

Martian Manhunter: A mind-controlling monster from the Red Planet, who pretends to be one of us. 'Nuff said.

 

Captain Comet: Another liberal in a red costume. He ends up defecting to "space". Yeah, "space". We believe you, Captain Commie.

 

"Red" Arrow: OK, this is a result of backdating his 70s liberalism back to the 50s. You caught me. The "real" 50s Green Arrow was a bland Bat-clone, but the one from the 70s, and, of course, The Dark Knight Returns, is an obviously blacklistable "hero".

 

I haven't included any female characters. There weren't that many around to choose from. We can safely bet that any Commie "heroine" wears a revealing costume, and is probably a lesbian. Hmm. Kind of like Wonder Woman, really. And she's not really an American, is she? I can feel a subpoena coming on...

 

Yes, this is all nonsense. Your point is?

[Enforcer84]

Re: 2004, another world thankfully not our own

 

Ultra gazed out over the streets of Philadelphia’s historic area. His telescopic senses moved from person to person in the crowd checking for any of the usual clues. He noticed one man reading a book. That was rare these days, but the title seemed... ah, it was history. It looked to be a brief summary of the McCarthy era.

 

Those, he thought, were hard times. Super heroes had been put on trial, men and women who'd used their extraordinary gifts for the greater good suddenly having their very loyalty challenged by "Tailgunner Joe" and his cronies. It was almost a hard battle, and many of the super hero set wanted to retreat until the climate became friendlier again, until it needed and wanted them again. In the end though, McCarthy had chosen to pick on the wrong team.

 

The American League were not only patriotic, they were versatile. Among their numbers was an American icon, a super strong man, a detective extraordinaire, a beloved starlet turned super heroine, and ....a telepath. The senator soon found his own dirty laundry aired out, even as the team leader, a skilled orator in his own right, came prepared with the list gathered by the team of real communist threats the Senator had missed entirely. Joe and his fellow witch hunters not only had their every shocking secret dragged out... they were shown up as incompetents. The American League had done what the commission had claimed to be doing, but they had done it RIGHT.

 

It was a breaking point in history, one that made Ultra wonder what it must have been like to be there. The United States was finally safe as a new use was found for heroes they'd thought were no longer needed. By public outcry and demand, the embarrassed politicians, perhaps fearful of having all of their secrets exposed if they turned against the heroes, turned over full federal powers to the American League and other heroes willing to work with them so that further rooting out of threats to the nation could continue.

 

It only made sense, Ultra knew, after all, if God created each man equally, then when a man elevated himself up beyond his brethren, that too must be God's plan. Divine Right, was not, as outdated pre-American dogma would have it, dictated by blood, but rather by deed and apparent chance. When a man lived through a lab accident only to gain special powers, what could it be called but a miracle? Of course, the more secular took the tact that every human promoted himSELF to greatness, but both sides agreed that clearly there was evidence of being above the common man in such people. Darwin's own theories, said the experts, concurred.

 

The American League grew and grew, by necessity; and Ultra was one of thousands. Every single ALer was needed though, for the population of the country was quite sizable, even with the constant weeding out of the sexual deviants, the lesser races, and the political insurgents seeking to seed their own agendas into this wonderful country. Thank goodness laws such as the "Speedy Trial Bill" allowed him to pass judgments on the spot, other wise the justice system would be bogged down in months of paper work and useless lawyering.

 

Ultra frowned, he had become so lost in thought, he hadn't continued looking at his charges. The gentle man who was reading had been accosted by an older man; one speaking in hushed tones and trying to pull the young reader away. Ultra did not have super hearing. He was an 'eye' to use the system's naming classification for his sensory abilities, but fortunately all 'eyes' were taught lip reading. Ultra had gotten good at it, very good.

 

The young man was asking, "What do you mean it all went wrong?"

The elder's lips moved, "Here is not the place, come with me, and I'll show you, tell you. We learned the wrong lessons. Things that have been lost in our fear, the bill of rights, ever hear of it?"

Ultra arched a brow, that document had been judged too easily misinterpreted by the masses, and thus was no longer for public discourse. Such things might lead to sedition.

The young man bit his bottom lip, and then said, "No, what is it?"

"I'll show you," The old man smiled, "A copy I mean. It may just open your eyes..."

 

They began to walk off, trying to look normal, mistakenly thinking that they were unobserved. Ultra sighed, he had truly hoped that the young man would learn from his studies how wonderful it was to live in the greatest nation on Earth, to be grateful and supportive of it. Instead, some old fool was dragging him down the wrong path. He'd have to arrest them both.

 

The good news, however, was that if this old man was heading towards some sort of haven for such insurgency, Ultra should be able to follow them and close down a whole nest of the traitors before they could make their seditious thoughts action.

 

He smiled at that, it felt good to keep his nation safe, he glanced at the Bell nearby, and nodded, yes, that was the plan.

 

"Let Freedom ring" He smiled to himself, and began his work to save the city yet again.

Spooky.

[Guest rbezold]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

You know, just for the hell of it, and because it pertains to this conversation, AND because I want feedback, Im going to tell you about a plot device I intend to use in my golden age campaign.

 

When the war starts, the OSS orders superheroes to stay out of europe. The reason for this is that Hitler is paranoid about american supers. After all the years he's spent prepping his people with talk of the 'Aryan Superman' it would be a PR disaster for one to come fight against him, and he's set aside a sizable portion of his panzers to deal with one whenever he shows up.

 

The OSS knows this, and has started the comic book industry and is funding Republican Pictures to flood the media with fake heroes. Then they send agents wearing circus tights into europe to keep the Germans guessing. They're also running a disinformation campaign about how their most powerful hero is vulnerable to certain radioactive isotopes and magic, causing the germans to waste valuable time and resources trying to aquire these items.

 

Now the Super-powerful flying brick I have in my campaign figures that an order to stay out of europe doesn't include Japan and takes off without asking to run a campaign of sabotage against Japanese shipyards.

 

FDR grits his teeth, but figures that the hero won't affect the campaign in europe, which is top priority. Truman, on the other hand, is incensed. He sees the hero's actions as flouting Presidential authority. He takes this about as well as he takes MacCarther years later.

 

When the Red scare starts, there is a quiet order from 'above' to bring down the hero. That's what I mean when I say there are hidden agendas. Sometimes the witch-hunters had their hearts (if not their heads) in the right place. And sometimes it was just payback...

[Kristopher]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

or read the section in "Treason" by Ann Coulter

 

 

 

You're citing Ann Coulter? Ann Fruitbat Coulter?

 

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Man, I needed it that. Thanks.

[Agent 13]

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Yeah, I was afraid it'd turn into this. Forget I asked.

[gewing]

Re: 2004, another world thankfully not our own

 

That is incredibly depressing. I'm not sure it would have gone that way, because imo most of the suupers were too individualistic to play that game.

 

 

Ultra gazed out over the streets of Philadelphia’s historic area. His telescopic senses moved from person to person in the crowd checking for any of the usual clues. He noticed one man reading a book. That was rare these days, but the title seemed... ah, it was history. It looked to be a brief summary of the McCarthy era.

 

Those, he thought, were hard times. Super heroes had been put on trial, men and women who'd used their extraordinary gifts for the greater good suddenly having their very loyalty challenged by "Tailgunner Joe" and his cronies. It was almost a hard battle, and many of the super hero set wanted to retreat until the climate became friendlier again, until it needed and wanted them again. In the end though, McCarthy had chosen to pick on the wrong team.

 

The American League were not only patriotic, they were versatile. Among their numbers was an American icon, a super strong man, a detective extraordinaire, a beloved starlet turned super heroine, and ....a telepath. The senator soon found his own dirty laundry aired out, even as the team leader, a skilled orator in his own right, came prepared with the list gathered by the team of real communist threats the Senator had missed entirely. Joe and his fellow witch hunters not only had their every shocking secret dragged out... they were shown up as incompetents. The American League had done what the commission had claimed to be doing, but they had done it RIGHT.

 

It was a breaking point in history, one that made Ultra wonder what it must have been like to be there. The United States was finally safe as a new use was found for heroes they'd thought were no longer needed. By public outcry and demand, the embarrassed politicians, perhaps fearful of having all of their secrets exposed if they turned against the heroes, turned over full federal powers to the American League and other heroes willing to work with them so that further rooting out of threats to the nation could continue.

 

It only made sense, Ultra knew, after all, if God created each man equally, then when a man elevated himself up beyond his brethren, that too must be God's plan. Divine Right, was not, as outdated pre-American dogma would have it, dictated by blood, but rather by deed and apparent chance. When a man lived through a lab accident only to gain special powers, what could it be called but a miracle? Of course, the more secular took the tact that every human promoted himSELF to greatness, but both sides agreed that clearly there was evidence of being above the common man in such people. Darwin's own theories, said the experts, concurred.

 

The American League grew and grew, by necessity; and Ultra was one of thousands. Every single ALer was needed though, for the population of the country was quite sizable, even with the constant weeding out of the sexual deviants, the lesser races, and the political insurgents seeking to seed their own agendas into this wonderful country. Thank goodness laws such as the "Speedy Trial Bill" allowed him to pass judgments on the spot, other wise the justice system would be bogged down in months of paper work and useless lawyering.

 

Ultra frowned, he had become so lost in thought, he hadn't continued looking at his charges. The gentle man who was reading had been accosted by an older man; one speaking in hushed tones and trying to pull the young reader away. Ultra did not have super hearing. He was an 'eye' to use the system's naming classification for his sensory abilities, but fortunately all 'eyes' were taught lip reading. Ultra had gotten good at it, very good.

 

The young man was asking, "What do you mean it all went wrong?"

The elder's lips moved, "Here is not the place, come with me, and I'll show you, tell you. We learned the wrong lessons. Things that have been lost in our fear, the bill of rights, ever hear of it?"

Ultra arched a brow, that document had been judged too easily misinterpreted by the masses, and thus was no longer for public discourse. Such things might lead to sedition.

The young man bit his bottom lip, and then said, "No, what is it?"

"I'll show you," The old man smiled, "A copy I mean. It may just open your eyes..."

 

They began to walk off, trying to look normal, mistakenly thinking that they were unobserved. Ultra sighed, he had truly hoped that the young man would learn from his studies how wonderful it was to live in the greatest nation on Earth, to be grateful and supportive of it. Instead, some old fool was dragging him down the wrong path. He'd have to arrest them both.

 

The good news, however, was that if this old man was heading towards some sort of haven for such insurgency, Ultra should be able to follow them and close down a whole nest of the traitors before they could make their seditious thoughts action.

 

He smiled at that, it felt good to keep his nation safe, he glanced at the Bell nearby, and nodded, yes, that was the plan.

 

"Let Freedom ring" He smiled to himself, and began his work to save the city yet again.

[assault]

Re: 2004, another world thankfully not our own

 

I've been playing with Hermit's little bit of fiction as a potential parallel universe. Here are some of my thoughts:

 

There's "thousands" of supers out there: that's a lot. More than naturally exist in most universes. Either most of them are very low-powered or someone is creating them artificially, or both. There also seem to be enough members of certain groups to warrant them being given distinctive names: Ultra is an 'eye'. Presumably there are 'ears' and so on....

 

The distribution of powers doesn't seem to be completely random. That supports a program of deliberate creation, as, of course, does the implication of active recruitment in "The American League grew and grew, by necessity".

 

How powerful are these deliberately created supers? If they are as powerful as "naturally occurring" supers, then, well, there's a whole lotta of powerful supers out there! If not, then the American League's power is most likely to be concentrated in a fairly small proportion of its membership.

 

Of course, the "created" supers may all share a common weakness. Identifying that might potentially represent a way to take them down en masse. Or, if they aren't that powerful, they might be able to be handled by lots of non-powered insurgents...

 

Either way, a rebellion against the American League would require a cadre of superbeings of its own. And that's where PCs come in.

 

It would also help if the opposition had some decent organisers. I always get annoyed by sloppy rebels.