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Re: 2004, another world thankfully not our own

 

This does get to be a touchy subject because facts are in dispute. Some folks look at McCarthy, have never heard (or don't trust) Vernona and are disgusted. There are even some who have never got the word on communism that a lot of folks have, i.e. massive death and starvation, fear, secret police. It is always "well, the Russians just did it wrong. When we get in power, things will be different" etc. etc. etc.

 

And you have to admit, communism talks a good rap and Hayek is ratehr boring to read. Freedom requires the individual take responsibility for the outcome of his own actions. that can be scary for a lot of folks. (As well as the tolerance to allow others to do thier thing means bad things will happen. So how much bad stuff are you willing to accept as the price of your own freedom?)

 

Why Ultra would WANT the job of being the power that be, is a big question to me. Is it a better view if you are the lead dog? Vanity? A sense of duty or responsibility? Power Tripping and Ego boosting? Some things that need to be explored.

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Re: 2004, another world thankfully not our own

 

:nonp: Don't read this if you're not interested in RL politics.

 

This does get to be a touchy subject because facts are in dispute. Some folks look at McCarthy, have never heard (or don't trust) Vernona and are disgusted. There are even some who have never got the word on communism that a lot of folks have, i.e. massive death and starvation, fear, secret police. It is always "well, the Russians just did it wrong. When we get in power, things will be different" etc. etc. etc.

 

And you have to admit, communism talks a good rap and Hayek is ratehr boring to read. Freedom requires the individual take responsibility for the outcome of his own actions. that can be scary for a lot of folks. (As well as the tolerance to allow others to do thier thing means bad things will happen. So how much bad stuff are you willing to accept as the price of your own freedom?)

 

I'm aware that communism had a 20th-century death toll that should give people nightmares. I'm of the opinion that combining communism and the state almost inevitably gives rise to a totalitarian system. I'd rather have some scarey freedom than the illusion of safety provided by strict control of individual lives by the state, or by society (which is why I find many religions just as scarey).

 

And I still look back at McCarthy and think that he was an opportunist and a pig and a demogogue. If HUAC had concentrated on real, potentially dangerous communist agents in government, instead of wasting time on housewives and Hollywood, instead of ruining people's lives for the political gain, instead of bringing to America exactly the kind of crap that makes the communist states so bad to begin with.

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Re: 2004, another world thankfully not our own

 

Ultra gazed out over the streets of Philadelphia’s historic area. His telescopic senses moved from person to person in the crowd checking for any of the usual clues. He noticed one man reading a book. That was rare these days, but the title seemed... ah, it was history. It looked to be a brief summary of the McCarthy era.

 

Those, he thought, were hard times. Super heroes had been put on trial, men and women who'd used their extraordinary gifts for the greater good suddenly having their very loyalty challenged by "Tailgunner Joe" and his cronies. It was almost a hard battle, and many of the super hero set wanted to retreat until the climate became friendlier again, until it needed and wanted them again. In the end though, McCarthy had chosen to pick on the wrong team.

 

The American League were not only patriotic, they were versatile. Among their numbers was an American icon, a super strong man, a detective extraordinaire, a beloved starlet turned super heroine, and ....a telepath. The senator soon found his own dirty laundry aired out, even as the team leader, a skilled orator in his own right, came prepared with the list gathered by the team of real communist threats the Senator had missed entirely. Joe and his fellow witch hunters not only had their every shocking secret dragged out... they were shown up as incompetents. The American League had done what the commission had claimed to be doing, but they had done it RIGHT.

 

It was a breaking point in history, one that made Ultra wonder what it must have been like to be there. The United States was finally safe as a new use was found for heroes they'd thought were no longer needed. By public outcry and demand, the embarrassed politicians, perhaps fearful of having all of their secrets exposed if they turned against the heroes, turned over full federal powers to the American League and other heroes willing to work with them so that further rooting out of threats to the nation could continue.

 

It only made sense, Ultra knew, after all, if God created each man equally, then when a man elevated himself up beyond his brethren, that too must be God's plan. Divine Right, was not, as outdated pre-American dogma would have it, dictated by blood, but rather by deed and apparent chance. When a man lived through a lab accident only to gain special powers, what could it be called but a miracle? Of course, the more secular took the tact that every human promoted himSELF to greatness, but both sides agreed that clearly there was evidence of being above the common man in such people. Darwin's own theories, said the experts, concurred.

 

The American League grew and grew, by necessity; and Ultra was one of thousands. Every single ALer was needed though, for the population of the country was quite sizable, even with the constant weeding out of the sexual deviants, the lesser races, and the political insurgents seeking to seed their own agendas into this wonderful country. Thank goodness laws such as the "Speedy Trial Bill" allowed him to pass judgments on the spot, other wise the justice system would be bogged down in months of paper work and useless lawyering.

 

Ultra frowned, he had become so lost in thought, he hadn't continued looking at his charges. The gentle man who was reading had been accosted by an older man; one speaking in hushed tones and trying to pull the young reader away. Ultra did not have super hearing. He was an 'eye' to use the system's naming classification for his sensory abilities, but fortunately all 'eyes' were taught lip reading. Ultra had gotten good at it, very good.

 

The young man was asking, "What do you mean it all went wrong?"

The elder's lips moved, "Here is not the place, come with me, and I'll show you, tell you. We learned the wrong lessons. Things that have been lost in our fear, the bill of rights, ever hear of it?"

Ultra arched a brow, that document had been judged too easily misinterpreted by the masses, and thus was no longer for public discourse. Such things might lead to sedition.

The young man bit his bottom lip, and then said, "No, what is it?"

"I'll show you," The old man smiled, "A copy I mean. It may just open your eyes..."

 

They began to walk off, trying to look normal, mistakenly thinking that they were unobserved. Ultra sighed, he had truly hoped that the young man would learn from his studies how wonderful it was to live in the greatest nation on Earth, to be grateful and supportive of it. Instead, some old fool was dragging him down the wrong path. He'd have to arrest them both.

 

The good news, however, was that if this old man was heading towards some sort of haven for such insurgency, Ultra should be able to follow them and close down a whole nest of the traitors before they could make their seditious thoughts action.

 

He smiled at that, it felt good to keep his nation safe, he glanced at the Bell nearby, and nodded, yes, that was the plan.

 

"Let Freedom ring" He smiled to himself, and began his work to save the city yet again.

 

Brrrrrrrr!

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Re: 2004, another world thankfully not our own

 

This does get to be a touchy subject because facts are in dispute. Some folks look at McCarthy, have never heard (or don't trust) Vernona and are disgusted. There are even some who have never got the word on communism that a lot of folks have, i.e. massive death and starvation, fear, secret police. It is always "well, the Russians just did it wrong. When we get in power, things will be different" etc. etc. etc.

 

Apart from North Korea, the "communist" states that still exist are very different from the way they were back in the 50s. I have friends living in China, Vietnam and Cuba, and it's quite clear that these societies have very little in common with the Soviet Union under Stalin, or even with themselves during the same period.

 

Even China, the most repressive, has changed massively from how it was even as recently as the early 70s.

 

If we look back at the French Revolution, it seems as though "massive death and starvation, fear, secret police" etc seem to be functions of revolutions as such, rather than of "communism". After all, the goal of the French revolution was to establish _capitalism_.

 

This post is a fine example of the inflammatory nature of threads like this. I probably should delete it. But I won't.

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Could we just stick to the premise and stop comparing evil commies and good commies because that's a distractor. Some say the Chinese today aren't anything like the Russians of yore. I instantly think of Tianenman Square. The thing that's scary about communism is the loss of political freedoms and the threat of force from the government, not the economic loss of freedom. When a communist economy inevitably fails, a politically free state will move on. A nation engaging in free market zones with very little political freedom is much scarier.

 

Now, McCarthy isn't a bad buy for not liking communism. He's a bad guy for misusing the trust of the people and threatening the very same political freedoms for everyone and harming specific individuals for political gain with the excuse that he was actually protecting political freedoms. Yes, there were communists in sensitive places. But McCarthy went after anyone, throwing too wide a loop, and took the philosophy of "Kill 'em all and let God sort them out." He had to know he was attacking the innocent as well as the guilty as he appealed to fear and tried to use Congress much like a lynch mob.

 

As far as the importance of McCarthy in the Red Scare. He was more important for galvanizing opposition against ferreting out communism and for escalating an already present fear of Communist Spies. How this would apply to superheroes is writer's fiat. Pretty much any idea can work.

 

My personal preference for why Superheroes become less active after World War II is quite simple. Most superheroes in WWII were motivated to fight a war for the defense of their nation(s) and a defense of liberty. They aren't so motivated to fight crime, so many retire after WWII to do what they did before it.

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

My personal preference for why Superheroes become less active after World War II is quite simple. Most superheroes in WWII were motivated to fight a war for the defense of their nation(s) and a defense of liberty. They aren't so motivated to fight crime' date=' so many retire after WWII to do what they did before it.[/b']

 

Yeah, that works. The main problem is why weren't more of them able to be mobilised to fight the Cold War.

 

In many cases, age would do the job. Being a superhero is at least as physically stressful as being a champion professional athlete.

 

Others probably did the "get married and settle down" thing. With greater private responsibilities, their chances to go swashbuckling over rooftops probably diminished. The less motivated thrill seeking types would tend to be vulnerable to pressures of this type, even if the obsessed vigilantes weren't. And guess what? Batman was one of the characters that didn't retire. :)

 

Another issue is: what happened to the kid sidekicks? They would have been becoming adults just as their mentors were becoming less active. Why didn't they take over?

 

Personally, I'm working on a timeline that has the first supers appearing in the 50s, not the 30s. Good old Earth-1, cut down to a manageable size, and with the serial numbers filed off. And yes, there will be an Earth-2...

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Guest Champsguy

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Well, the supers who retired didn't have a whole lot to do in the Cold War. You don't send them into Korea, because you're worried that the Russians will see that as a much more serious threat and will use the bomb. Deploying a superhuman in warfare is about the equivalent of using a nuke. Just make sure that no Superman-class supers are active (i.e., ones who could stop defeat the Soviets all by their lonesome), and you've got your explanation.

 

As far as the kid sidekicks, well, they had to grow up. They go on to college. They get married. That gives you 10-15 years or so of peace, until the Silver Age begins, and then something inspires Chippy the Boy Sensation to put on his mentor's old costume and continue to fight the good fight as the Midnight Mink.

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Re: 2004, another world thankfully not our own

 

CHina wasn't in revolution during the 70s.

 

 

 

 

Apart from North Korea, the "communist" states that still exist are very different from the way they were back in the 50s. I have friends living in China, Vietnam and Cuba, and it's quite clear that these societies have very little in common with the Soviet Union under Stalin, or even with themselves during the same period.

 

Even China, the most repressive, has changed massively from how it was even as recently as the early 70s.

 

If we look back at the French Revolution, it seems as though "massive death and starvation, fear, secret police" etc seem to be functions of revolutions as such, rather than of "communism". After all, the goal of the French revolution was to establish _capitalism_.

 

This post is a fine example of the inflammatory nature of threads like this. I probably should delete it. But I won't.

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

I'm leaning more and more to the idea that SUpers put Mcarthy out of our misery and actually found the REAL spies.

 

THough which ones? Were there super vs. super fights because of Socialist or COmmunist leanings and histories?

 

I could see some supers being effectively blacklisted by other supers because of such things.

 

Though if there are reliable mentallists, things might not be quite as nasty, in SOME ways.

 

THough I fear the mentallists would end up running the show in a Generation.

 

 

Could we just stick to the premise and stop comparing evil commies and good commies because that's a distractor. Some say the Chinese today aren't anything like the Russians of yore. I instantly think of Tianenman Square. The thing that's scary about communism is the loss of political freedoms and the threat of force from the government, not the economic loss of freedom. When a communist economy inevitably fails, a politically free state will move on. A nation engaging in free market zones with very little political freedom is much scarier.

 

Now, McCarthy isn't a bad buy for not liking communism. He's a bad guy for misusing the trust of the people and threatening the very same political freedoms for everyone and harming specific individuals for political gain with the excuse that he was actually protecting political freedoms. Yes, there were communists in sensitive places. But McCarthy went after anyone, throwing too wide a loop, and took the philosophy of "Kill 'em all and let God sort them out." He had to know he was attacking the innocent as well as the guilty as he appealed to fear and tried to use Congress much like a lynch mob.

 

As far as the importance of McCarthy in the Red Scare. He was more important for galvanizing opposition against ferreting out communism and for escalating an already present fear of Communist Spies. How this would apply to superheroes is writer's fiat. Pretty much any idea can work.

 

My personal preference for why Superheroes become less active after World War II is quite simple. Most superheroes in WWII were motivated to fight a war for the defense of their nation(s) and a defense of liberty. They aren't so motivated to fight crime, so many retire after WWII to do what they did before it.

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Well, the supers who retired didn't have a whole lot to do in the Cold War. You don't send them into Korea, because you're worried that the Russians will see that as a much more serious threat and will use the bomb. Deploying a superhuman in warfare is about the equivalent of using a nuke. Just make sure that no Superman-class supers are active (i.e., ones who could stop defeat the Soviets all by their lonesome), and you've got your explanation.

 

As far as the kid sidekicks, well, they had to grow up. They go on to college. They get married. That gives you 10-15 years or so of peace, until the Silver Age begins, and then something inspires Chippy the Boy Sensation to put on his mentor's old costume and continue to fight the good fight as the Midnight Mink.

A good point. The Atomic Age would discourage the use of superbeings as a weapon of the State in many instances. Supers would come out of the woodwork with more pseudo-scientific explanations for origins and with the increase of independent super threats to the Earth.

 

The less said about the Midnight Mink and Chippy the Boy Sensation the better. :nonp:

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

I'm leaning more and more to the idea that SUpers put Mcarthy out of our misery and actually found the REAL spies.

 

THough which ones? Were there super vs. super fights because of Socialist or COmmunist leanings and histories?

 

I could see some supers being effectively blacklisted by other supers because of such things.

 

Though if there are reliable mentallists, things might not be quite as nasty, in SOME ways.

 

THough I fear the mentallists would end up running the show in a Generation.

One problem with the genre as expressed in the design of most superheroes is the lack of proper resistance to mind control. In the comics, most of your supers, at least pre-iron age, were of very stern stuff and most mentalists would have a great deal of trouble dealing with the likes of Spidey, Daredevil, Batman, and Hawkman. I really think quite a few published supers would have respectable defenses against psionic manipulation.
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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

One problem with the genre as expressed in the design of most superheroes is the lack of proper resistance to mind control. In the comics, most of your supers, at least pre-iron age, were of very stern stuff and most mentalists would have a great deal of trouble dealing with the likes of Spidey, Daredevil, Batman, and Hawkman. I really think quite a few published supers would have respectable defenses against psionic manipulation.

 

I have yet to create a PC for my own use that does not have at least the minimum purchaseable Mental Defense for that campaign. (5 + EGO/5 being the defauly minimum.)

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Re: 2004, another world thankfully not our own

 

That is incredibly depressing. I'm not sure it would have gone that way' date=' because imo most of the suupers were too individualistic to play that game.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that was kind of a 'worse case' scenerio or close to it, to show how even supers might get caught up in the worst aspects of the climate while trying to deal with a threat. It could also have ended up becoming something much nicer, but one of the unspoken laws of comics seems to be "You think this is bad, try messing with the timeline, and you're just going to make it worse". The muse hit me and I ran with it, I confess.

 

Assault has actually taken the idea in directions I hadn't fully considered, but I like. It does make a passably fair alternatve universe (if I do say so myself ;) ) for a group of PCs to stumble onto. He's also given a lot more thought into how powerful supers would be, if they were artificially created, and by whom, so on. I was originally of the notion that if the first generation of the American League were still actively getting sidekicks, passing on legacies, seeking out young heroes and even sharing their power sources with more than one (imagine if the Pyms started doling out the particle to whole groups) then, in stead of that lull, the super hero population might snowball, but his idea of a more organized 'manufacture' of supers period is even better. Nothing like a group of PC rebels seeking either to shut down the factory or gain powers of their own to fight the oppressers etc etc :D

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Most superheroes in WWII were motivated to fight a war for the defense of their nation(s) and a defense of liberty. They aren't so motivated to fight crime' date=' so many retire after WWII to do what they did before it.[/quote']

 

I think that this is a completely reasonable explanation. After all, how many veterans come home and become mercenaries? A few do, but nearly everyone considers them a bit unbalanced.

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Were there super vs. super fights because of Socialist or Communist leanings and histories?

 

I think that the concept of the superman is pretty much antithetical to socialism and communism. There'd be a few, but I think they'd be at least as rare as supers who have religious themes.

 

Then again, I am neither communist nor particularly religious, so I may have a somewhat slanted perspective.

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Guest bblackmoor

Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

One problem with the genre as expressed in the design of most superheroes is the lack of proper resistance to mind control.

 

This reminds me of something I have been thinking about a lot lately. I'll start a new thread to discuss it, though.

 

Incidentally, I had you on my ignore list for the logest time. Per my standard routine, I took you off when I could no longer remember why you were on there. I'm glad I did.

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

I think that the concept of the superman is pretty much antithetical to socialism and communism. There'd be a few' date=' but I think they'd be at least as rare as supers who have religious themes.[/quote']

 

First of all, if powers are distributed randomly, political opinions wouldn't be a factor.

 

But assuming they aren't, there are some fairly obvious options for leftist superheroes:

 

First of all, the original version of Superman was a social activist.

 

There are leftist strands in the "hard boiled detective" genre. This is the genre that underlies Batman style crimefighting. DC have explicitly specified that the Crimson Avenger fought (briefly) in the Spanish Civil War. He, and other pulpish types such as Slam Bradley are perfect candidates for having leftist leanings.

 

Mystic types like Dr Occult, on the other hand, definitely aren't going to be socialists.

 

You may have noticed something about the examples I have used: they are all from 1938 or before. G*ddamn pinkos were there from the very beginning!

 

The flagsuits were the imitators. :)

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

It would seem likely to me that in a comic book-based 1950s, there would be as many more actual Communist agents running around than real life, as there were Nazi agents during comic book WWII.

 

Of course, you'd have some hardcore traitorous Commies, some Soviet infiltrators, some "dupes" who really believe that the Communists are in favor of economic/social justice, a few capitalists who are willing to take the Reds' money, and some blackmail victims.

 

And if the Communist ideal really doesn't allow for the "individual superman", that would explain why they're sending their costumed crazies over to North America.

 

And a "Blue Mask" might easily confuse them with "Red Masks" who seem to hold the same philosophies.

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

I most definitely stand corrected. :)

 

:)

 

Seriously, though, assuming a relatively even statistical spread of powers, and a fairly small population of supers, it's pretty likely that there would have been very few leftish supers in the US in the 40s and 50s. They would have been a minority of a tiny minority.

 

At this point we can also ask, "where are the black supers?", and so on, but I'll pass on that at the moment.

 

I've been thinking about the supposed socialist/communist hostility to the "individual superman". There's a couple of things involved.

 

First, in the real world, they are an ideological construct, not an actual phenomenon. That probably makes some kind of difference.

 

Second, while Stalin, in particular, might have problems with powerful supers potentially posing a threat to him in the Soviet Union, that doesn't have much to do with "Red Masks" in the US.

 

Third, well, plenty of leftist writers, filmmakers and so on have managed to create stories with heroes. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to for them to do one with superpowers.

 

As I've already suggested, leftist pulp writers like Dashiell Hammett churned out plenty of good action adventure yarns. It wouldn't be too hard to put Sam Spade in a mask, particularly if labor racketeers wanted to discuss certain matters with him...

 

And then there is the mutant metaphor. The late 50s were the heyday of the Civil Rights movement, and the Klan were doing their best to stop it. It wouldn't be hard to work up a superheroic reflection of that kind of conflict.

 

Who would be the natural political allies of mutants? The same people who supported the Civil Rights movement, of course. :)

 

That would be more a factor in the 60s, of course, once the Mutant Scare gets going....

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

Several points that have not been addressed.

Nixon was a lawyer working with HUAC (House on UnAmerican Activities) so he's involved early on, like the trial of Alger Hiss. He just didn't jump on the bandwagon later.

 

During the late 40s and 50s very little was known about what was actually happening and what life had been like under the Communist regime. We know now but people didn't know back then. Television was only just in its infancy and radio was still a main source of news.

 

The people at the time were often idealists. Communism had opposed Facism in Europe and won. Those Americans who had been party members in the 30s might see themselves as martyrs if caught. Bear in mind that many of them might never have been abroad.

 

McCarthy's downfall was to start suggesting a witch hunt into Communists in the military. As soon as he did that he lost support.

 

So if McCarthy is discredited what then ? You may have still had the scare but at a lower level. Discreet. Quiet. A secret war perhaps.

There are those in Hollywood who were against HUAC like Humphrey Bogart and Burt Lancaster and those that were for it like John Wayne, Robert Taylor and Ginger Rogers. What happens could affect their careers.

It is feasible that supers of the period could be communists and believers in the system without knowing what is being done in Russia and Eastern Europe.

Others as has been suggested could have retired after the War particularly if they fought in any of the theatres. For example the actor Tyrone Power served with the marines in the Pacific. He never had the same Joie de Vivre that he had before hand. However after what they have seen some supers might decide to follow their beliefs in reshaping the world.

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

One problem:

 

In a timeline with a reasonable distribution of supers dating back to pre-WWII, there's a good chance Stalin would have purged any supers he could find. . . meaning there is a decent chance Stalin was *killed* by such a super, and that the Soviet Union is ruled by *someone* else.

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

During the late 40s and 50s very little was known about what was actually happening and what life had been like under the Communist regime. We know now but people didn't know back then. Television was only just in its infancy and radio was still a main source of news.

...

It is feasible that supers of the period could be communists and believers in the system without knowing what is being done in Russia and Eastern Europe.

 

A lot of what was happening was known. At least enough to get a feel for things.

 

People can find excuses for a lot of things. Fascism was real, and so was counter-revolutionary terrorism. No, they don't justify all the Stalinist crimes and nonsense, but the threshold is a lot higher than is often appreciated.

 

In addition, a lot of leftist sentiment was actually related to opposition to things like racism, support for anti-colonial struggles, and things like that. Stalin's antics were actually irrelevant to that. The CP was one of the few political organisations to regard African-Americans as human beings. That, deservedly, earned them credit that no amount of nonsense overseas could entirely take away.

 

Finally, there were, of course, the Trotskyists, who to a large extent were the people who had actually blown the whistle on the Purges in the first place, way back in the 30s. They were communists explicitly _despite_ the crimes of Stalinism.

 

And then there are anarchists, social democrats, left liberals and so on - people who would simply be swept up into a single bucket by the witchhunters.

 

In other words, leftists in the real world in the 40s and 50s were not fools, not dupes, not ignorant, and not monsters. They were sane and often quite superb human beings.

 

It's rather a shame that their counterparts in a superhero roleplaying universe are the Bad Guys. But they are, usually.

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

One problem:

 

In a timeline with a reasonable distribution of supers dating back to pre-WWII, there's a good chance Stalin would have purged any supers he could find. . . meaning there is a decent chance Stalin was *killed* by such a super, and that the Soviet Union is ruled by *someone* else.

It is something that has not been explored but most Supers are related to who the writer is. Thus with DC and Marvel almost all the wartime supers are invariably American as the writers are goin with what they know.

 

Stalin could have supers purged or Beria the head of the NKVD could. On the other hand the supers could be staunch communists. Remember the Red Army and Russia as a whole suffered more casualties than anyone. 9 Million Army dead. Around 18 Million civilians. Who is to say that his supers weren't killed in the Great Patriotic War, the Russian Civil War of the 20s or in the purges of the 30s.

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Re: I Have In My Hand A List...

 

One problem:

 

In a timeline with a reasonable distribution of supers dating back to pre-WWII, there's a good chance Stalin would have purged any supers he could find. . . meaning there is a decent chance Stalin was *killed* by such a super, and that the Soviet Union is ruled by *someone* else.

Unless you give Stalin super powers or make him a puppet dictator all along...
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