help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

[secretID]

Maybe I should have posted these both here, instead of in the 5E rules section:

 

1) should I buy 5E revised?

I bought the 5E rules just a couple of months ago. I haven't played at all, but I'm getting pretty comfortable, and I was thinking of looking for a PBEM game.

 

Are the revisions substantial enough that I should/must have them?

 

2) multiform - is this for real?

I'm very new to the system. The powers with exponential adders (multiform, duplication, etc.) and some 1/5-type rules like multiform and follower seem off to me, multiform and follower have both, and multiform in particular seems screwy.

 

This is my understanding:

If I am limited to 200 starting points, 150 disadvantages, and 75 individual power active cost, I can have a 75-point multiform built on 375 points, and still have plenty to spare on the main form. I could also have, say, 16 different multiforms built on 275 points each.

 

The abusive possibilities are obvious, but even using the rule as it seems to be intended (as in the vari-armor example in the 5E rules and in the doppelganger power set in the Champions book), it looks much too powerful to me.

 

I've been poking around a big PBEM site (Global Guardians), and I didn't see a single multiform, duplication, or follower, though there's no house rule against them, so I've been wondering if I'm just misunderstanding these rules, or missing some big disadvantage.

 

The 75-point active cost limit keeps duplication from getting out of hand (and also prevents any advantage on duplication, unfortunately), but it doesn't stop multiform.

 

As I said, I'm wondering about the other exponential and 1/5-type abilities, too.

 

 

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[Rapier]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

No. FREd is gonna hold you in good stead for a while. But you might be able to unload the old one on EBay and pick up the new if you like.

 

Yes. Your understanding is correct. All the powers you mentioned have warning symbols next to them. While it is the GMs duty to approve/oversee all characters during development to ensure that they are in balance with the campaign, those powers deserve special consideration because they can be overhwhelmingly powerful.

[Jhamin]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

1) 5th Revised is bigger, longer, and has more examples. If you are doing OK navigating 5th, you are probably fine.

If you decide to commit to hero in a big way you may want to pick it up a second hand copy just to get the extra examples, but I wouldn't worry about it.

 

2) Multiform *is* an easily abused power. You just have to watch characters to make sure the powers you are buying are appropriate.

One of the halmarks of Hero is that just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. Especially if it isn't fun.

 

Multiform is costed the way it is because otherwise it gets inappropriatly expensive for the Hulk to change into Bruce Banner or the Werewolf to change into John Talbot.

 

In any case, if characters in your game are limited to 200+150, then using multiform to bypass that would probably be considered bad faith by most GMs.

[KA.]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

secretID,

First, let me say, Welcome to Hero!

 

You probably do not need to buy 5th Ed Revised. The changes aren't that major, mostly just clarifications. Somewhere around here there is a thread on what exactly has changed. But it isn't like the D&D thing where all the other books become useless or anything. It is mainly a fresh print with as many typos as possible fixed and some clarification of rules.

 

On the powers you mentioned.

Without getting into specifics, let me tell you something that slips right past most people when they first get into Hero. Because there is a decent amount of game balance built in, and because you are encouraged to build your character however you want, and because there is a fair amount of math, some people think of Hero like a soapbox derby. Everyone starts with the same number of points, you build the most efficient character you can, and whoever makes it down the ramp, errr, beats up the bad guys first, wins.

 

No.

 

Hero is like a big garage full of tools. You can build just about anything you want out of them. But what you are supposed to be building with them is

your character concept.

 

When you start out to build a birdhouse, you don't get out the arc welder, riveting gun, and cement mixer, because even though they are in the garage, you don't need them for your birdhouse.

 

The idea is to have the widest range of tools possible, so that if you are building Beast Boy, you can turn into a Tiger, or Bear, or Electric Eel.

 

That does not mean that Martial Arts Detective Guy and Flamethrower Boy should also have the ability to turn into Mountain Lions, just because that power is in the book.

 

As much as the designers of Hero have done their best to build in balance, there are absolutely constructs that are more "points effective". You can build things that are abusive. But as long as you stick to building your concept, and your GM makes sure that Limitations are Limiting, Disadvantages are Disadvantageous, and everyone, no matter what power level, gets a fair share of the plot, you will never get too far astray.

 

KA.

 

P.S. for further information on this topic (as if you aren't already bored to tears ) you may want to read this thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24953

[paigeoliver]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

secretID,

 

 

That does not mean that Martial Arts Detective Guy and Flamethrower Boy should also have the ability to turn into Mountain Lions, just because that power is in the book.

 

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24953

 

That idea tempts me, "Flamethrower boy, who can also turn into a Mountain Lion", it makes no sense but I really like the idea. I picture him as thin and wearing big mirrorshades. I also picture the mountain lion form as wearing the same mirrorshades.

[caris]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

2) multiform - is this for real?

I'm very new to the system. The powers with exponential adders (multiform, duplication, etc.) and some 1/5-type rules like multiform and follower seem off to me, multiform and follower have both, and multiform in particular seems screwy.

 

As you have heard Multiform is for real. It used to be different in that in 4th ED. There was a rule to limit the amount of points that any form could have (no more than the total points of the base character less the points spent on Multiform) and how the forms could be built (the most powerful form had to be the base form), but that led to some interesting math issues (people calculating the most efficient point level so all the forms were built on the same points) and concept issues (the base form is supposed to be Bruce Banner/Don Blake, not the Hulk/Thor).

 

I always assumed the rule was made to simplify the whole process, and to allow concepts like a "polymorph self spell" where a player could turn into a more powerful character temporarily (i.e. allowing a good concept to exceed campaign limits).

 

Personally as a GM, in a Supers game, I don't allow any form to exceed the campaign total point limits. In other games, I look at each build carefully to see if it is balanced.

[paigeoliver]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

I like the new way better.

 

Under the old method "Captain Plesiasaur" who could turn into a watergoing dinosaur would have had to have the points of his almost never used (limited to giant bodies of water), giant Plesiasaur form as his base form, and limited to campaign maximums.

 

Using the old method would have totally killed the character concept, since it simply wouldn't have been possible to build the super scientist normal form and GIGANTIC massive water dino form without running out of points.

 

But with the new rules the good captain can have his normal form built on my usual campaign total of 200+100 and he could spend 100 of his points on his 500 point Plesiasaur form, which I would allow because he wouldn't be able to use it very often.

[Agent X]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

If you plan on running a game with published Champions characters present, I suggest you compare player character builds to the builds in Champions, Champions Universe, Conquerors Killers and Crooks, etc. Those characters are decently built and it gives a ready-made standard for character construction and construction philosophy that you can point to. In our game, we recently had a hiccup because some players weren't really in line with that construction philosophy and it had to be worked out so that everyone was on the same page.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

2) multiform - is this for real?

 

I'm very new to the system. The powers with exponential adders (multiform, duplication, etc.) and some 1/5-type rules like multiform and follower seem off to me, multiform and follower have both, and multiform in particular seems screwy.

 

This is my understanding:

If I am limited to 200 starting points, 150 disadvantages, and 75 individual power active cost, I can have a 75-point multiform built on 375 points, and still have plenty to spare on the main form. I could also have, say, 16 different multiforms built on 275 points each.

 

The abusive possibilities are obvious, but even using the rule as it seems to be intended (as in the vari-armor example in the 5E rules and in the doppelganger power set in the Champions book), it looks much too powerful to me.

 

Pretty much anything can be abused, although some powers are easier than others. A couple of notes.

 

First, the forms all have the same starting points. While this can be waived by the GM, the 375 point form in your example would need 175 points in disadvantages. You could also dig in your heels at that point and say "max disadvantages is 150, therefopre you cannot legaly build a 375 point form".

 

Multiple forms can also create issues. Note, however, that each form has to buy its own stats, and there will doubtless be some common items between the characters (eg. a form with 10 DEX, 2 SPD and 10 CON seems less than likely).

 

That said, like all constructs, the power and the character as a whole needs to be reviewed by the GM for balance. In some cases, I might allow a character to have a form with more pioints than the campaign max (a magic spell which transfroms the caster to a dragon, for example, or the excellent plesiausaur example above) assuming there are apropriate limitations on the ability. In others, I might tell the player that his concept (say, "8 forms, including one which steps on the toes of each other PC's specialty") is not permitted, so he'll need to choose a different approach.

 

Part of the problem is that a system which provides for every possible ability will, by necessity, provide for abilities that may not be appropriate in all circumstances. As well, what's balanced in one campaign can be inordinately effective in another. Is a 4d6, 8 DEF entangle overly effective? Probably not in a Supers campaign where average attacks are 60 AP. Now consider it in a fantasy campaign where all magic requires Gestures, normal characteristic maxima apply and weapons cannot be swung while entangled. Even if getting to 60 AP of damage in spells and weapons is fairly common, show me the character who can escape this entangle - they can't invoke any of those attacks!

[secretID]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

Thanks for the great - and quick - responses.

 

I appreciate the idea of maintaining a good character concept, but it still seems to me that the exponential adders are much too powerful (too cheap, actually).

 

The doppelganger power set in Champions is a good example - for 55 points you get 8 different 200-point forms. Even if your base character only had 200 points total, it's a huge bargain. You could have a pure combat form, an aerial combat form, an underwater form, a stealth form, etc..

 

I would think the principles should be:

1) Each duplicate/form/follower/whatever should be less expensive than the one before, but not exponentially.

2) Multiforms should be less expensive than the duplicates, followers, etc., because you can only have one at a time.

3) Followers and summoned should be less expensive than duplicates do the degree that they're not directly controlled (I'm not very familiar with follower and summoned rules).

4) Aside from those subtractions, the duplicate/multiform/whatever should have an active point cost equal to its base points.

 

Wouldn't #4 - basing cost on base points instead of character points - solve the problem of Dr. Dinosaur?

 

Note: I know I'm very new to the system. I don't intend any of this as forceful argument - I'm just throwing out ideas.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

Captain Plesiosaur?

 

Flamethrower Boy, who can also turn into a mountain lion?

 

You guys are killing me.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

Some history.

 

The exponental adders were possibly an overcorrection from 4th edition where you had to pay the same cost again for another duplicate or multiform. This made it so expensive that it was impossible to even consider having 8 more-or-less 16 duplicates or more than 2 other multiforms. Some thought this was great since you didn't need to worry about someone trying to play The Angry Mob Man or the Swiss Army Transformer.

 

This brought about lots of work-arounds in 4th edition. These were built to have the effects of having 16 duplicates or several multiforms, proving that by themselves, these were playable constructs just priced too high for the effect wanted bought the way that they wanted. Having 16 duplicates is really not much more dangerous than having lots of extra STR when you're already the strongest brick or having lots of extra dice on a powerful energy blast.

 

Ok, so the cost of the adder became 5 points for x2 Duplicates or Multiforms. Since 5 points of Strength gives you a doubling of lifting capacity and (supposely) double the offensive power in an attack (represented by inflicting another BODY or so of damage). There was already the rule of 5 points for x2 Followers or Vehicles or creatures Summoned.

 

Ok, how does that help you?

 

Well, you can house rule a change in your campaign to say the cost is 5 points for ONE more duplicate or Multiform or Creature Summoned. This allows small numbers, but prevents from becoming amazingly cheap at the high end.

[paigeoliver]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

Captain Plesiosaur?

 

Flamethrower Boy, who can also turn into a mountain lion?

 

You guys are killing me.

 

I shall endeavour to create both these characters as fully fleshed out and logical creations ready to play in your campaign or mine. There are no bad concepts*, only bad players.

 

 

 

*Well, there are no bad concepts that do not involve the word "Ninja".

[secretID]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

Some history.

 

The exponental adders were possibly an overcorrection from 4th edition where you had to pay the same cost again for another duplicate or multiform. This made it so expensive that it was impossible to even consider having 8 more-or-less 16 duplicates or more than 2 other multiforms. Some thought this was great since you didn't need to worry about someone trying to play The Angry Mob Man or the Swiss Army Transformer.

 

This brought about lots of work-arounds in 4th edition. These were built to have the effects of having 16 duplicates or several multiforms, proving that by themselves, these were playable constructs just priced too high for the effect wanted bought the way that they wanted. Having 16 duplicates is really not much more dangerous than having lots of extra STR when you're already the strongest brick or having lots of extra dice on a powerful energy blast.

 

Ok, so the cost of the adder became 5 points for x2 Duplicates or Multiforms. Since 5 points of Strength gives you a doubling of lifting capacity and (supposely) double the offensive power in an attack (represented by inflicting another BODY or so of damage). There was already the rule of 5 points for x2 Followers or Vehicles or creatures Summoned.

 

Ok, how does that help you?

 

Well, you can house rule a change in your campaign to say the cost is 5 points for ONE more duplicate or Multiform or Creature Summoned. This allows small numbers, but prevents from becoming amazingly cheap at the high end.

 

The history - touched on earlier as well - does explain a lot.

 

Your solution looks like a pretty good one - makes multiple duplicates, multiforms, etc., more expensive, but not impossible if that's the main point of the character.

 

If I were to run a campaign (haven't even played in one yet), I would still probably re-write the rules along the lines of what I said above, but I'll shut up now. Thanks for all the responses.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: help the newbie? - two unrelated Qs

 

Multiform: Personally I require that no form have more points than the campaign standard, plus any experience gained on the base form.

 

Thus in a 200 + 150 game a character that had gained 33 XP could have multiforms of up to 383 points, total (200+150+33). All of their forms could be that high, or only some of them.

 

This bottles the upper end.

 

 

x2 for +5: Dont forget that modifiers are applied to the Adders as well.

 

As far as it being too cheap, a key point is the applicability of the base form. The more points spent on other forms, the more limited the base form is (having fewer points to spend on other abilities). If you allow a player to make a MF character with a base form that they practically never actually use, then the base form is just a point generator and MF can become overpowered.

 

You need to ensure as the GM that, for whatever reason, the base form must be used somewhat often in a way that impacts the character. This can be done vis Disads (Im fond of Accidental Changes that force MF's to revert), Limitations, and circumstance in-game.