How good is "good"?

[Merlin273]

Hero has benchmarks for Characteristics and skills, but what about combat levels? How about a combat benchmark chart? I'm looking to make a swordsman who is one of the greatest in my world (at least he hasn't lost a fight yet). How many CSL would that be? He's got a DEX 20 and Martial Arts: Swordfighting, so we're looking at a max. OCV/DCV of 9. Pretty damn good, but not "one of the best in the world" material.

[L. Marcus]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Hm . . . In my mind . . .

 

Say that your basic militiaman has DEX 9, SPD 2, an appropriate WF and no MAs or CSL . . .

 

A basic soldier/warrior has DEX 12, SPD 3, WFs and one or two 3-point CLS with a single weapon.

 

A master fighter has 17 DEX, SPD 4, WFs, 15-20 points in a MA, and three-four CSLs in said MA . . .

 

A best-of-the-best type would have, say, 20 DEX, 5 SPD, WFs, 20-25 points in a MA, and six to eight CSLs . . .

 

Edit: The last one is where I, myself, put Okami Itto, the Lone Wolf . . .

 

Sounds good?

[Rapier]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Hero has benchmarks for Characteristics and skills' date=' but what about combat levels? How about a combat benchmark chart? I'm looking to make a swordsman who is one of the greatest in my world (at least he hasn't lost a fight yet). How many CSL would that be? He's got a DEX 20 and Martial Arts: Swordfighting, so we're looking at a max. OCV/DCV of 9. Pretty damn good, but not "one of the best in the world" material.[/quote']

Depends on what your world is. It is going to vary from campaign to campaign. My advise is to talk to your GM. He's the only one that can answer that.

[proditor]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

This might be more granularity than you are looking for, but what type of swordsman? To be considered "the best" as a medieval big sword cut bad guy type, you might also want to include some disarm, bind and take down moves to simulate the use of pommel to trip or foul another weapon. A basic strike usable "unarmed" also allows your swordsman to bind the other guys weapon and kick him in the breadbasket all as part of the art.

 

If we're talking fencing, different moves apply of course, and if we're going Kenjitsu, think about a lot of Lightning Reflexes for some Iaijitsu action.

 

My friends and I have an ongoing argument over whether "best in combat" means tightly defined narrow skill or the ability to due a lot very competantly. I'm not sure what you are looking for, so YMMV.

[Merlin273]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Great ideas, guys. This character is a master-level swordsman - like Montoya in "The Princess Bride", or Madmardigan in "Willow"...real swashbuckling stuff. He is a character who is so good that he can do "sword-tricks", like Zorro. You know, cutting the clothes off opponents, etc. I can use Sweep to handle a group of opponents, but what about other stuff? Maybe a VPP: Sword-Tricks?

 

Also, what about this as a "guideline" for CSLs, based on the description on pg. 43 of 5ER?:

 

Familiarity: WF only

Competent: +1

Skilled: +2 to +3

Very Skilled: +4 to +5

Highly Skilled: +6 to +7

Extremely Skilled: +8 to +9

Incredibly Skilled: +10 or higher

[paigeoliver]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Because of OCV/DCV curves you don't have to go completely nuts with combat skill levels.

 

Your simple 20 DEX fighter doing a defensive strike move with his sword is ALREADY OCV 8, and DCV 10. A normal can't even hit you at all, and you can do called shots against them with little chance of failure.

 

Also, is this supposed to be a PC, or an NPC. If it is a PC, then he probably SHOULDN'T start out as "the best in the world".

 

If he is an NPC then it is simple, keep him +2 OCV, +2 DCV above the best PC swordsman and he will smoke them every time.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

For my campaigns, I allow up to +10 in CSL's. A character with +10 CSL's would be considered one of the best in the world. There usually is only 10 individuals on the planet with skill on that level of expertise. However, I don't think I've ever seen anyone with more than 6 skill levels (in one particular weapon or ability)) in any of my campaigns, so I have yet to experience any problems that may occur with CV in those ranges (of course, I've had NPC's with that level of skill)

 

Of course, in lieu of CSL's (though, I'd buy them anyway) I also allow "Weapon tricks" as you mentioned. I've had a great number of PC's and NPC's with these abilities. Some examples include:

 

Sword of Fury: 2D6 HKA(30) Autofire-5(+1/2) 1/2End(+1/2) 60 Active

--OAF(-1) Extra Time: Full Phase(-1/2) Damage Limit(-1/4) 22pts End=15 per "Flurry"

--This technique allows the swordsman to perform a "Flurry" of quick strikes at an opponent (or group of opponents), though performing this technique is very tiring. Note: the "Damage Limit" limitation means that if the character is using a Short Sword, the damage of the technique is limited to the damge of the shortsword (1D6K). It can be used with any blade type weapon, but the damage is limited to that of the weapon type being used, not to exceed 6DC.

 

Echo Blade: 2D6HKA(30) Indirect (+1/2) 45 Active

--OAF(-1) Requires Skill Roll (-1/2) Damage Limit(-1/4) 16pts End=4/attack

--This technique is performed by switching hands midway through the strike. The attack appears as if it is coming from one direction, but in actuallity it will come from the opposite direction. The technique requires a successful Slight of Hand skill roll be made by the attacker for the effect to be initiated. If successful, the attack can not be blocked. It can be dodged as normal.

 

Perfect Riposte: 2D6HKA(30) Damage Sheild(+1/2) 45 Active

--OAF(-1) Only after a successful block(-1/2) Damage Limit(-1/4) 16pts End=4/phase

--This technique allows the master swordsmant to counter-strike after each successful parry, without expending an action to do so. He blocks and counters so swiftly, it is completed in one smooth flowing motion. A master of this technique can clear a room full of attackers and not allow a single one to touch him.

Note: Under the rules of 5th edition, Continuous must be added to an attack with damage shield. For those who follow those rules to the letter the Active cost is 75pts and the real cost is 27pts. Enduraces is 7pts per phase.

 

Helmet Splitter: 2D6HKA(30) Armor Piercing(+1/2) 45 Active

--OAF(-1) x2End(-1/2) Damage Limit(-1/4) 16pts End=9/attack

--This technique is designed to slice through an opponents heavy armor. It is called "Helmet Splitter" because it is perfected by practicing slicing through a heavily armored helmet as effortlessly as possible, without damaging the blade. The technique is perfected when the warrior can slice completely through the helmet without nicking or dulling the blade.

 

And of course, any swordmaster worth his weight must have Missile Deflection.

 

A true sword master might have a single attack power with the Variable Advantages advantage.

[Curufea]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Very nice!

 

You can go even further into the Mythic Chinese feel too - such as the movie Hero, or the Once Upon a Time in China series (or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon etc)

 

Even the Greek myths put heroes above the level of regular combatants - have a look at them in Troy, they have special skills that could be used to show a greater-than-normal swordsman.

[Trencher]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Echo Blade: 2D6HKA(30) Indirect (+1/2) 45 Active

--OAF(-1) Requires Skill Roll (-1/2) Damage Limit(-1/4) 16pts End=4/attack

--This technique is performed by switching hands midway through the strike. The attack appears as if it is coming from one direction, but in actuallity it will come from the opposite direction. The technique requires a successful Slight of Hand skill roll be made by the attacker for the effect to be initiated. If successful, the attack can not be blocked. It can be dodged as normal.

Is this legal? You can dodge an attack you can not block? Or for that matter there can be attacks you can dodge but you cant block?

[Markdoc]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Strictly speaking, no. You can't simply say "cannot be blocked" although the GM could OK it.

 

I have built "hard to block attacks" by using the following combinations:

 

An area affect, selective attack that only affects one person. By definition, area effect attacks cannot be blocked or dodged, although you can dive for cover.

 

Attacks using invisible effects. These can be blocked, but the defender has to actually state he is blocking an attack. You can't block something after it has hit - which means that if the defender just stands around he's likely to get walloped before he realises what's going on. I treat blocking an invisble attack the same as attacking an invisible foe.

 

"If done right, can no defend!"

 

cheers, Mark

[BlackSword]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Great ideas, guys. This character is a master-level swordsman - like Montoya in "The Princess Bride", or Madmardigan in "Willow"...real swashbuckling stuff. He is a character who is so good that he can do "sword-tricks", like Zorro. You know, cutting the clothes off opponents, etc. I can use Sweep to handle a group of opponents, but what about other stuff? Maybe a VPP: Sword-Tricks?

 

Also, what about this as a "guideline" for CSLs, based on the description on pg. 43 of 5ER?:

 

Familiarity: WF only

Competent: +1

Skilled: +2 to +3

Very Skilled: +4 to +5

Highly Skilled: +6 to +7

Extremely Skilled: +8 to +9

Incredibly Skilled: +10 or higher

Some of the skills such as acrobatics have options that allow OCV/DCV bonuses, though you will have to talk to the GM to allow them. That would be another way to boost combat with an added flair, fitting of a swashbuckler.

[Frenchman]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

As for the whole 'cannot be blocked' argument, lets pull out our FH books and open them to page 169. The top two paragraphs discusses essentially what NSG has done with her echo blade. Yes, it does say that using this give the wielder -1 OCV, but that is built as a side effect, so there really is no reason not to do it. However, it does NOT say that using indirect in this manner will make an attack 'unblockable,' only that it ignores the DCV bonus from a shield.

That said, I think it would be perfectly fair to allow an attack to be 'unblockable' (or perhaps 'undodgable') for a +1/4 advantage. Like MarkDoc points out, AOE attacks cannot be dodged or blocked. The advantage One Hexe Accurate is a +1/2 advantage, so it seems fair to allow an attack to be 'unblockable' for +1/4.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Is this legal? You can dodge an attack you can not block? Or for that matter there can be attacks you can dodge but you cant block?

 

Yes you can!

 

The Ultimate Martial Artist says as much on page 132 under optional rules for the Indirect advantage when applied to HA or HKA.

It states that when applied to HA or HKA or Martial Maneuvers (if the GM allows such) the indirect advantage prevents the attack from being blocked, unless the defender has purchased hardened for their Block maneuver.

This is definately a Stop sign power.

The attack can be dodged as normal, however; the Area Effect: One Hex advantage when applied to a HA or HKA or Martial Maneuver creates an attack that can not be dodged (UMA page 131). The only way to avoid the attack (aside from blocking it) would be to Dive for Cover.

Any HA or HKA power with both Indirect and AE-One Hex would be overly effective as it is both unblockable and undodgeable. Be very careful here.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Strictly speaking' date=' no. You can't simply say "cannot be blocked" although the GM could OK it.[/quote']

 

Sure you can. It says as much in the UMA.

 

I have built "hard to block attacks" by using the following combinations:

 

An area affect, selective attack that only affects one person. By definition, area effect attacks cannot be blocked or dodged, although you can dive for cover.

 

I follow the model as laid down in the Ultimate Martial Artist here, as I like the fact that it takes one specific advantage to make an attack undodgeable (Area Effect) and a different advantage to make an attack unblockable (Indirect).

The way I run it, Hand Attacks or HKA's with AE are still blockable. A good example would be if Grond picked up a semi-truck and swung it at Power-Guy, Power-Guy could still technically block the attack where it did no damage to him (though, it may slam him into the concrete up to his waist)

 

Attacks using invisible effects. These can be blocked, but the defender has to actually state he is blocking an attack. You can't block something after it has hit - which means that if the defender just stands around he's likely to get walloped before he realises what's going on. I treat blocking an invisble attack the same as attacking an invisible foe.

 

Thats exactly what I do in this case. If an attacker is using an Invisible attack, the defender must have some way of sensing it, if not any Block or Missile Deflection attempts are at 1/2OCV (0 OCV to missile deflect ranged attacks from further than 1" away)

For purposes of this, Combat Sense always has a chance of sensing the attack, and any character with Combat sense is allowed a perception roll to sense the invisisble attack coming. If successful, they may defend at full OCV. Any martial artist worth his Black Belt should have Combat Sense...

 

"If done right, can no defend!"

 

cheers, Mark

 

Best way to defend against an invisible attack...No be there! Dodge your ass off. Invisible attacks do not reduce one's ability to dodge.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Some of the skills such as acrobatics have options that allow OCV/DCV bonuses' date=' though you will have to talk to the GM to allow them. That would be another way to boost combat with an added flair, fitting of a swashbuckler.[/quote']

 

Yes, both Acrobatics and Sleight of Hand can give OCV bonuses (and Acrobatics should be able to give a DCV bonus as well, but this isn't mentioned).

 

The method I like to use comes from the old 4th edition UMA, though it was removed from the 5th edition version.

Basically, a character can use Acrobatics skill to get either an OCV or a DCV bonus. If the character makes their Acrobatics roll, they get a +1 to either OCV or DCV, players choice. If the characters roll was a critical success (i.e. rolled less than half of what they needed to roll) then the character gets a +2 to OCV or DCV. (not it can't be split between both. One or the other please) Thus an Acrobatic, Martial Dodge can be up to +7 to DCV!

If the character fails their Acrobatics roll, they are at both -1 OCV and -1 DCV. If the roll was a critical Failure, it spoils their attack or defense completely and they are left at 1/2DCV or possibly prone on the ground. Don't fail!

Note that an Acrobatic Attack or Dodge, constitutes a "Half-Move" action, thus requires 1/2 Phase to perform. Thus one cannot do a half-move, then use an Acrobatic attack.

 

As far as Sleight of Hand "feints" are concerned, the method I use is different from that listed in the UMA. I treat Feints as a maneuver...its a 1/2phase action...and its treated as a skill vs skill contest between the attackers Sleight of Hand skill and the defenders Perception skill. For every 2pts the Sleight of Hand roll beats the defenders perception roll, the attacker gains +1 to OCV not to exceed +3 OCV. For every 2pts the Defenders Perception roll beats the attackers Sleight of Hand roll, the defender gets +1 DCV, not to exceed +3.

If the attackers Sleight of Hand roll is a critical success and the defenders Perception roll was a failure, the Defender's DCV is reduced to 1/2. If the defenders Perception roll was a critical failure, their DCV is reduced to 0!

If the defender's Perception roll was a critical success, and the attackers Sleight of Hand roll was a failure, the attackers OCV is reduced to 1/2. If the Sleight of Hand roll was a critical failure, their OCV is reduced to 0.

Note: the actual attack that is launched after the feint must be announced before the feint is attempted. Thus no "aiming for the head" after discovering your opponent is now at 0DCV. This must be announced before the feint is attempted.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

As for the whole 'cannot be blocked' argument, lets pull out our FH books and open them to page 169. The top two paragraphs discusses essentially what NSG has done with her echo blade. Yes, it does say that using this give the wielder -1 OCV, but that is built as a side effect, so there really is no reason not to do it. However, it does NOT say that using indirect in this manner will make an attack 'unblockable,' only that it ignores the DCV bonus from a shield.

That said, I think it would be perfectly fair to allow an attack to be 'unblockable' (or perhaps 'undodgable') for a +1/4 advantage. Like MarkDoc points out, AOE attacks cannot be dodged or blocked. The advantage One Hexe Accurate is a +1/2 advantage, so it seems fair to allow an attack to be 'unblockable' for +1/4.

 

Yep, thats the old "Flail" maneuver. In the 4th edition, Flails and other similar weapons were built using the +1/4 version of Indirect, and they ignored the DCV bonus of sheilds (and other such defensive implements).

 

What I did was I went one further; In my campaigns, the +1/4 version of Indirect allows an attack to ignore the DCV bonus of shields. The +1/2 version (the same advantage as AE-1 Hex) makes the attack "unblockable". I'm not sure what effect the +3/4 version should have, but whatever it is, it should be pretty gnarly! (unblockable Plus?)

 

I'm thinking the +3/4 version would gain the bonus from Attacking from Behind or possibly by surprise. That sounds good to me, what do you guys think???

[RPJesus]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

Dr. Evil the simulated sword tricks that you search for are a game convention called "Targeting Skill Levels" These are used not for OCV and DCV but for countering in any negatives for called shots like the shoulder strap of a womans blouse or the belt of her dress or a person head." An OCV of 9 is awesome if you factor in 6 to 8 targeting skill levels making an attacked to an armored opponents unarmed hands effective and hard to defend.

RPJ

[Victor]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

... so good that he can do "sword-tricks"' date=' like Zorro. You know, cutting the clothes off opponents, etc. [...'] Maybe a VPP: Sword-Tricks?

I think the Power skill would be more appropriate (and probably cheaper) for those sorts of stunts, unless you want them to have actual combat effects.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How good is "good"?

 

I think the Power skill would be more appropriate (and probably cheaper) for those sorts of stunts' date=' unless you want them to have actual combat effects.[/quote']

 

A single HKA attack power with Variable Advantage woud take care of this issue. Add the Power skill on top of it and you would be good to go.