What should be DROPPED from HERO?

[Dust Raven]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I think there's a substantial difference' date=' as one is a useful precedent and the other is not - obviously IMHO and here's where I think the only recourse is to agree to disagree.[/quote']I can do that

 

I actually think we are agruing whether or not we like to write so many words on a character sheet. Ultimately, the effect the character is getting is identical, whicher way you use. The only difference is how the notation looks (and some minor variations in cost). I don't mind the extra notation, and feel it allows for greater flexibility.

 

I do like your point about Regen for other chars and such though.

 

I do think in the end the Adjustment powers just need some "cleansing" but I don't have any bright ideas and if I'm going to spend time on refining HERO in any serious way I'm interested in creating a more clean Framework ability.

 

PS - to be clear, my concern is the way the official rules hand-wave and create it AS an official rule which now can be extended into all sorts of places - and in this case I don't see the value.

I'll agree that Adjustment Powers need some work, but they always have. Looking back across the history of Hero, they seem to have undergone some of the greatest changes from edition to edition, and it looks like we can expect some more in future editions.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I agree with you on just about eveything, but I'll highlight a few that I've been meaning to mention myself.

Two Weapon Fighting is not broken; if anything it's overpriced. It has been established that it's cost is based upon the "default" status of Sweep as being Optional; essentially it purchases access to Sweep, offsets the Off Hand penalty, and grants +2 OCV to offset the first Sweep penalty. If Sweep is allowed (and IME it generally is), then TWF is a waste of points -- it's cheaper to buy PSL's against the off hand penalty for dual weilding and a couple of OCV levels.

 

There is a FAQ Entry on this, indicating that a GM that allows Sweep might consider allowing TWF reduce the 1/2 DCV of a Sweep to a -4 DCV instead to make it useful again.

 

As far as the real world ramification of who can make how many attacks with how many weapons in how much time, who cares? This is a cinematic resolution system. Whether it is possible or not, it's cool. The System doesnt claim to be a representation of real world physics and biomechanics, it promises to be a game of heroic action and adventure.

Absolutely. Overpriced. Go ahead and buy the same abilities with Limited CLS's or even Penalty Skill Levels. Add up the differing costs. You get not much.

 

It's even more worthless in a Superhero game where all of a character's attacks are paid for in points. If you just was to hit an opponent with two different attacks, you make an MPA with no penalty. If you've paid for the extra full Power to do so that is.

 

 

C) I think Healing has some issues when considered alongside Transfer, Absorption, and Aid powers, but I think it's easily fixed by allowing Players to determine if their Absorption or Transfer is "Aid Based" or "Heal Based" at character creation, and just go from there.

 

I do think the arbitrary cap on Healing effectiveness should be reduced to "Optional" status for use in genres where that is appropriate -- I think there are many cases where unlimited Healing is genre appropriate and that it should be open-ended by default; restricting it out of hand instead of leaving that option open the GM is heavy handed and Anti-HERO System IMO.

 

Regeneration is a bit of a hack, but on the other hand it does have some mechanical advantages inherent to it. For starters, it has a lower Real Cost than it used to, but higher Active Points -- very high in fact. This makes it resistant to Adjustment Powers. Also since Heal is an END costing power, it can be placed in an Elemental Control, old-Skool Regen could not; this works nicely with the high AP low RC nature of new-Skool Regen.

As a house rule I've made Healing work similar to Aid, with a max value that can be increased the same way. Ultimately it works a lot like Aid, only it doesn't raise thing above starting value, and it doesn't fade (two factors I feel balance each other out). Typically, I feel that Healing as a whole could be folded back into Aid, and make "Healing" a +0 Modifier like "Simplified" is for Healing (and once was for Aid, before Healing came around). Things like Regen can be made from Aid, bought as Healing.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I can do that

 

I actually think we are agruing whether or not we like to write so many words on a character sheet. Ultimately, the effect the character is getting is identical, whicher way you use. The only difference is how the notation looks (and some minor variations in cost). I don't mind the extra notation, and feel it allows for greater flexibility.

 

 

I'll agree that Adjustment Powers need some work, but they always have. Looking back across the history of Hero, they seem to have undergone some of the greatest changes from edition to edition, and it looks like we can expect some more in future editions.

Re the write-up/words thing, yes and no I suppose. I also think there's an interesting "problem" of whether a power is a base power or a derived power, if you'll forgive the terms, in that the base power's modification is of course against whatever it's stated value is whereas any modification to a derived power is further to it and only incremental. So there's a question as well as to what powers should be actual stated powers versus derived from another power and thus upon modification affected in a different way. Whether Regen is "deserving" of being a base power is certainly very much an opinon question, whereas something like Energy Blast is assuredly a base power. Just a side note, but a relevant one I think.

 

Definitely agree the Adjustment Powers have never settled down. I think 5th was actually a bit shy in handling them. I think a BIG problem with Adjustment Powers, even aside from their innate complexity, is that they are more elusive in corresponding from a game to the effects in heroic fiction (perhaps more than any other set of powers they are used as plot devices), so it's extremely difficult to probably build them in a way that people will be happy, anyway.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

When I say "not playable"' date=' please read like I just said the game Clue is not playable as an RPG, as RPGs are currently understood by today's RPG players. The original D&D game was an RPG.... just like Clue. Or maybe even Life. You played from a restricted set of characters that had nearly predefined abilities, and had objectives that came in the same box, rather than the DM's head. You can play it, but you're not really playing an RPG. You're playing a really, really complex board game. It was that simple.[/quote']

I see what you mean, thanks for the explanation, it makes more sense.

[Kristopher]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

When it comes to the powers themselves, I see absolutely no reason to drop any of them*, merge any of them*, or change any of the names.

 

 

* With the possible exception of Aid, Healing, and Succor.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

When it comes to the powers themselves, I see absolutely no reason to drop any of them*, merge any of them*, or change any of the names.

 

 

* With the possible exception of Aid, Healing, and Succor.

It's the weirdest thing for me (in my mind at least)... I think that Healing should be folded back into Aid (with an option to act like Healing does in 5th), that Succor should become it's own Power, and not an optional form of Aid (much like Suppress is not an optional form of Drain), but that Regen should stay a highly maluable construct to be witten up using Aid/Healing or Characteristics (such as increased or modified REC) as each individual GM/player sees fit.

[Reneshat]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Umm - And I have fought off two people - one to each side - with one sword. So what does that tell us? Certainly holding a second weapon increased my options slightly, but it sure as heck didn't increase my number of attacks any - it just made it easier to go one way or the other. A single Bo or Jo would have been just as good (better, actually).

 

cheers, Mark

 

Paige was under the assumption one could not independently aim and attack with each weapon. I was saying one could. If one did get twice the attacks, the attacks would be a lot less powerful, like Rapier said. I was simply saying both weapons could be operated independently of each other.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

For the record' date=' I'd have to agree I think we say it's "not playable" through today's lens, with scads of innovation and increased game design acumen. To say it was "broken" in many ways is perhaps the fairer assessment. I don't recall (probably never even knew) enough to comment on early D&D, but given how it got patched in everyone's games, I tend to think it was probaby a reasonably coherent system and thus playable, and thus, finally, relatively easily fixable for where it was broken. Which to me is a fine enough system - like Champions first edition.[/quote']

 

D&D, especially very early D&D, was a framework that individual GM's and gaming groups built successful (or not) games out of, using those rules which worked for them, dropping or modifying those that didn't and creating house rules for issues they wanted addressed, but that weren't in the rules. It set the initial tone - games that had a skeletal framework of rules and let the gamers fill in the holes.

 

How far have RPG's really come? We have much larger rules sets now (592 pages - in 1981, that would have been about 8 to 10 RPG's - 9.25 Champions 1st Ed's!), trying to cover more and more off. So instead of adding new house rules to cover issues the skeletal framework didn't address, we now add variant house rules to modify the rules we don't like in the huge tome.

 

I think the biggest change is that you can use the "official" rules for a much broader game now than 20 years ago, meaning House Rules are less essential, but that doesn't seem to have made them any less popular. As well, official rules tend to include more options and alternatives, and a greater component of "if you don't like the rule, change it". Anyone remember Gary Gygax's infamous (at the time) article where he stated that, if you changed the rules, you were no loner playing D&D?

[rayoman]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Hee hee... we're getting back to the "Five Powers" model.

 

You could arguably build any of the other Powers in the book by starting with five basic Powers (Attack, Defense, Sense, Move, and Transform) and applying Adders, Advantages, and Limitations.

 

 

The book would be A LOT smaller.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

D&D, especially very early D&D, was a framework that individual GM's and gaming groups built successful (or not) games out of, using those rules which worked for them, dropping or modifying those that didn't and creating house rules for issues they wanted addressed, but that weren't in the rules. It set the initial tone - games that had a skeletal framework of rules and let the gamers fill in the holes.

 

How far have RPG's really come? We have much larger rules sets now (592 pages - in 1981, that would have been about 8 to 10 RPG's - 9.25 Champions 1st Ed's!), trying to cover more and more off. So instead of adding new house rules to cover issues the skeletal framework didn't address, we now add variant house rules to modify the rules we don't like in the huge tome.

 

I think the biggest change is that you can use the "official" rules for a much broader game now than 20 years ago, meaning House Rules are less essential, but that doesn't seem to have made them any less popular. As well, official rules tend to include more options and alternatives, and a greater component of "if you don't like the rule, change it". Anyone remember Gary Gygax's infamous (at the time) article where he stated that, if you changed the rules, you were no loner playing D&D?

Hugh, I've heard "if you changed the rules, you were no longer playing D&D" re HERO, without irony, directly from people closely connected to HERO. 'Nuff said as I don't to start a flame war.

 

Anyway, there's a tagline - "HERO 5ER - 9.25 times as good as the first edition!"

[Dust Raven]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Hugh, I've heard "if you changed the rules, you were no longer playing D&D" re HERO, without irony, directly from people closely connected to HERO. 'Nuff said as I don't to start a flame war.

 

Anyway, there's a tagline - "HERO 5ER - 9.25 times as good as the first edition!"

I don't want to touch too closely on that topic, but I have a Psych Limit.

 

I do think there's a point were you stop playing one game, and start playing something else. The most striking example of this, in my mind, is the Palladium system. Just a bunch of guys playing D&D who made up a bunch of house rules. Made up enough, actually, that they were not only playing a different game, they actually published it (Palladium Fantasy RPG). The same can be said for HERO I suppose.

 

Perhaps a more accurate statement: "If you change enough rules, you are no longer playing [whatever system]."

 

Whatever "enough" means will vary from player to player (and from court to court if you want to publish something ).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Perhaps a more accurate statement: "If you change enough rules' date=' you are no longer playing [whatever system']."

 

Whatever "enough" means will vary from player to player (and from court to court if you want to publish something ).

 

This is probably true. It also depends which rules. If you change D&D to use % dice, are you still playing the d20 system? Contrast to changing the critical hit rules to increase the threat range by one on each weapon.

 

In Hero, compare "We don't use the Speed chart, instead we roll DEX rolls for initiative and everyone gets one action, and we use a d20 for task resolution instead of 3d6" to "We use 4th Ed regeneration and instant change"

 

I agree there's a point where you've changed enough rules that you aren't playing the same game any more. There's also a tendency of some Hero players to want to porecisely model other game systems (as opposed to an element or two of that system, or the feel of a mechanic) with Hero, which begs the question "Why not just use the other game system - it's already tweaked to work that way"

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Actually, INT is mostly just a base for PER. Check out the INT ratings of some Animals.

 

The real key is that a high INT doesnt necessarily = intelligence and vice versa, a low INT doesnt necessarily represent a lack of intelligence.

 

Yes, it is efficient for a character with intellect skills to buy their PER up, but it isnt a requirement.

 

The stat would be better labled as "Wits" or "Alertness", which would more closely represent its real function.

Oh? If INT doesn't stand for Intelligence, what does it stand for? Back-fitting INT into perception and then saying that INT is really PER, not intelligence seems to me like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, or like cutting off one foot because an odd number of socks came out of the dryer.

 

INT is Intellegence, that's why INT-based skills are called Intellect Skills. When you're doing Cryptography, Deduction, Computer Programming, etc., it isn't Alertness that your using.

 

So why is PER based on INT? Why not? It seems to be the closest match, not a perfect match, but good enough. As has been pointed out before, almost all stats - particularly the primary ones, can be broken down into smaller abilities. Intelligence particularly so. Even psychologists and cyberneticists who spend their whole lives working with intelligence have a hard time agreeing on a definition of what it is exactly.

 

For those who don't like PER based on INT, you could try one of these options:

 

Base PER roll is 10+INT/10 instead of 9+INT/5, this way, base characters still have 11- base roll, but high INT doesn't have as much impact.

 

Or just let PER be 11- and not based on any characteristic. Why not? PER isn't a skill. It doesn't need to follow the same rules as skills.

 

(BTW, I don't really see why all skills must be permanently tied to exactly one characteristic. I don't mind the 5th change, but there are some cases where a skill might not use its usual characteristic, or indeed any characteristic at all. For example: Obviously, brain surgery requires a high INT, but when actually doing it, you also need DEX to keep your hands steady and your scalpel in precisely the right place.)

 

And another thing: I've come to like Healing the way it is. If Healing is infinitely cumulative for free, there's almost no reason to buy more than a few dice of it. Say one or two for most stats, 3-4 for those rare occasions when someone suffers from a long-term SPD Drain. There are at least three by-the-book methods for making Healing more cumulative: 1) the Cumulative Advantage, 2) the "Shortened Reset Time" Advantage in FH, and 3) the separate tracking (and separate healing) of each individual wound.

 

And I like the idea that someone mentioned of allowing the option of Transfer and Absorption to work like Healing (i.e., the points don't fade, can only go up to starting values, and aren't cumulative by default).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Definitely agree the Adjustment Powers have never settled down. I think 5th was actually a bit shy in handling them.

IMO, they seem to be pretty settled now. The main change in 5th was the price of some of them, which I think was a good thing. Regen is cheaper now, and should be. What do you mean by "a bit shy"?

 

I think a BIG problem with Adjustment Powers, even aside from their innate complexity, is that they are more elusive in corresponding from a game to the effects in heroic fiction (perhaps more than any other set of powers they are used as plot devices), so it's extremely difficult to probably build them in a way that people will be happy, anyway.

I don't find them any more complex than regular attacks. IMX, adjustment powers are absolutely essential.

 

Regular attack:

roll dice of effect

count STUN and BODY

subtract appropriate defence (PD/ED/rPD/rED)

STUN heals back at REC/turn or Recovery Phase

 

Adjustment Power:

roll dice of effect

count STUN

subtract Power Defence (if it's an attack)

points fade/return at 5/turn (or other time increment)

 

OK, Absorption is a little more complex, but the others are all about the same as any other power.

 

What do you mean by "elusive in corresponding from a game to the effects in heroic fiction"? Do you mean adjustment-power-type effects aren't as common in heroic fiction? Well, no kidding. Everyone has two fists on the end of their arms. Guns, swords, and clubs are fairly simple to describe and use. But there are LOTS of examples of adjustments in heroic fiction, from Popeye's spinach to Rogue's power to the bite of a vampire to performance-enhancing drugs to poisons to diseases to the unstoppable monster that keeps getting more powerful the more you attack it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Oh? If INT doesn't stand for Intelligence, what does it stand for? Back-fitting INT into perception and then saying that INT is really PER, not intelligence seems to me like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, or like cutting off one foot because an odd number of socks came out of the dryer.

 

INT is Intellegence, that's why INT-based skills are called Intellect Skills. When you're doing Cryptography, Deduction, Computer Programming, etc., it isn't Alertness that your using.

 

So why is PER based on INT? Why not? It seems to be the closest match, not a perfect match, but good enough. As has been pointed out before, almost all stats - particularly the primary ones, can be broken down into smaller abilities. Intelligence particularly so. Even psychologists and cyberneticists who spend their whole lives working with intelligence have a hard time agreeing on a definition of what it is exactly.

 

For those who don't like PER based on INT, you could try one of these options:

 

Base PER roll is 10+INT/10 instead of 9+INT/5, this way, base characters still have 11- base roll, but high INT doesn't have as much impact.

 

Or just let PER be 11- and not based on any characteristic. Why not? PER isn't a skill. It doesn't need to follow the same rules as skills.

 

(BTW, I don't really see why all skills must be permanently tied to exactly one characteristic. I don't mind the 5th change, but there are some cases where a skill might not use its usual characteristic, or indeed any characteristic at all. For example: Obviously, brain surgery requires a high INT, but when actually doing it, you also need DEX to keep your hands steady and your scalpel in precisely the right place.)

 

And another thing: I've come to like Healing the way it is. If Healing is infinitely cumulative for free, there's almost no reason to buy more than a few dice of it. Say one or two for most stats, 3-4 for those rare occasions when someone suffers from a long-term SPD Drain. There are at least three by-the-book methods for making Healing more cumulative: 1) the Cumulative Advantage, 2) the "Shortened Reset Time" Advantage in FH, and 3) the separate tracking (and separate healing) of each individual wound.

 

And I like the idea that someone mentioned of allowing the option of Transfer and Absorption to work like Healing (i.e., the points don't fade, can only go up to starting values, and aren't cumulative by default).

 

FRED Page 23/ 5ER Page 37

 

INTELLIGENCE (INT)

---

Intelligence represents a character's ability to take in and process information quickly. It does not necessarily reflect knowlege of lack thereof (a character could be ignorant or a genius, but still have an INT of 10). INT has more to do with processing and reacting to information than with raw learning.

 

Lets crack open the bestiary, shall we?

BESTIARY Page 10

 

INTELLIGENCE (INT)

---

 

As the HERO System 5th Edition notes, INT reflects a character's ability to perceive, process, and appropriately react to information quickly. Thus, many animals have INT's in the standard 8-12 range common to most "normal" characters -- after all, their lives often depend, on a day-to-day basis, upon their ability to detect and escape danger. But this does not mean they are capable of learning to read, talking, reasoning as well as a human, thinking abstractly, or the like. An animal's ability -- or, more accurately, lack of ability -- to do such things is reflected by the Physical Limitation "Limited Intellect".

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Killer Shrike, would you speak up, I can't hear you?

 

Phil, I'll address your questions later, I'm about to check a PM and log off to go out to dinner.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Why are you using such a large font size? Are you shouting? There really isn't any need for that. You can make the size twice as big if you want, it still doesn't refute anything I said, nor does it support your claim that INT is not Intelligence, or that INT is alertness. And if you like, you can use a font ten times larger and shaped to look like it's carved in stone, but it still won't make FREd (or the HSB) into the Bible.

 

Nowhere did I say that INTelligence=knowlege or learning. Someone could have a low or average intelligence and still have memorized a lot of facts. Likewise, someone could have a very high INT but have little knowledge, having never studied anything in a disciplined way. The former would have low/average INT, but lots of skills (some perhaps INT-based!). The latter would have a high INT, but few, if any intellect or academic background skills.

 

Nor did I say that an animal would have to be able to talk and read in order to qualify for a high INT.

 

The game is supposed to approximate, as closely as practical, the real world. INT should work, as closely as practical, like intelligence in the real world. *MUCH* easier said than done. In the real world, highly intelligent people are often not particularly observant of their surroundings. High INT - Low PER.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

The game is supposed to approximate' date=' as closely as practical, the real world.[/quote']

 

It's supposed to approximate, as close as is playable, the worlds found in adventure fiction.

 

You're getting way too hung up on labels, Phil. They're only called that for convenience. People in the real world who study "intelligence" for a living do not all agree what the word means. I think it's a bit much for you to expect the definition used in a game to exactly match what you think it means.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

It's supposed to approximate' date=' as close as is playable, the worlds found in adventure fiction.[/quote']

Yes. That's exactly what I mean. Adventure fiction must approximate the real world fairly closely, otherwise it disrupts the willfull suspension of disbelief. I just eliminate the middleman. If a particular GM wants to run a cartoon-like game with totally outlandish physics and other effects that aren't anything like the real world, he is certainly free to do so (and I don't have any problem with that at all. I might even enjoy such a game.), but the game *system* must start with the real world as its basis. Then we add superheroes, magic, etc., to that real-world simulation to make a fun game.

 

You're getting way too hung up on labels, Phil.

What makes you think that?

 

They're only called that for convenience.

Their called that because that's the real world phenomenon that the game system construct is trying to simulate. Someone might want to run an RPG in which intelligence has an impact. The HERO system allows you to do this by supplying a Characteristic called INT. HERO calls it Intelligence because it's supposed to represent intelligence. HERO represents martial arts with a set of Skills that it calls Martial Arts. The game designers saw that martial arts exist in the real world, and therefore someone might like to simulate them in a game. Same with intelligence, strength, dexterity, running, dodging, radar, etc.

People in the real world who study "intelligence" for a living do not all agree what the word means. I think it's a bit much for you to expect the definition used in a game to exactly match what you think it means.

Have you not been reading this thread? That's exactly what I said! I never said I expect it to match what I think it means. I'm not even sure I have a definition myself. All I said was that INTelligence is supposed to represent intelligence. Whatever that happens to be. And there are plenty of examples in the real world of highly intelligent people who aren't particularly observant or alert, i.e., high INT, low PER.

 

I won't repeat myself any further. If you want to know what I said, go back and read it before you try to tell me that I'm "hung up" on something.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Why are you using such a large font size? Are you shouting? There really isn't any need for that. You can make the size twice as big if you want' date=' it still doesn't refute anything I said, nor does it support your claim that INT is not Intelligence, or that INT is alertness. And if you like, you can use a font ten times larger and shaped to look like it's carved in stone, but it still won't make FREd (or the HSB) into the Bible.[/quote']

 

Thats quite a lot of vitriol for a +1 Font size, but whatever fills your sails man.

 

As far as refuting and blah blah blah, whatever youre on about, it says very clearly that INT is primarily about perceiving and assimilating, and not about knowledge or thinking. It even specifically says that a person with a 10 INT could be either a genius or ignorant. Further, many animals have greater than 10 INT, and the reason is because they are alert and perceptive.

 

Thus, clearly, since "being smart" is not synonymous with "high INT score" and a high INT is used to represent a character that can "take in and process information quickly", if you want a character that is intelligent but not perceptive, you dont have to buy their INT up since it's primary use is perception oriented.

 

Model a character's "non-perceptive intelligence" as Skill Levels with INT Based Skills, or buying up the skill roll of individual skills.

 

Rather than trying to misuse a mechanic because you are confused by the label, instead read the rulebook and understand what it is you are talking about. Bible or not, it is the rulebook. If you dont like it, print and publish your own game, wherein you can define what you think INT is.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

IMO' date=' they seem to be pretty settled now. The main change in 5th was the price of some of them, which I think was a good thing. Regen is cheaper now, and should be. What do you mean by "a bit shy"?[/quote']

 

Simply that in my opinon they should have gone further in remodeling them, and I believe that the objections related to 4th to 5th changes relate to this "shyness" in making a more definitive set of changes - the changes with Healing and Regen seem halfway, as if they go too far in some regards for many people but by the same token they don't seem to go far enough in that if we saw a stronger conceptual basis for said change and they were somehow streamlined better, we'd have a different sort of discussion that might be more clean, whether it raised as many objections.

 

I don't find them any more complex than regular attacks. IMX, adjustment powers are absolutely essential.

 

My reference to complexity was not in the way they are presented in the game (I agree they're simple enough and ought to remain so in any way they're represented), but meaning that they are inherently a complex set of things to model in the game given all the ways they manifest in fiction which I was alluding to in terms of how often they are plot devices. They aren't like an energy discharge in terms of something that is as predictable in story-telling. Remember "Adjustment Powers" includes Transform, the oft-discussed "Bestow" (not a power in HERO but one we talk about modeling a lot and for now is considered done via Transform even though it is "naturally", to some, linked to Aid conceptually), Healing, Regen, Aid, Drain, Suppress, Transfer (whether that's its own power or a linked Drain/Aid), and whatever I've missed. It's a mixed bag of things and with a lot of granulairty as well as fudginess in the base fiction we're modeling that is inherently more complex than missiles, fireballs, lazer beams, and so on.

 

What do you mean by "elusive in corresponding from a game to the effects in heroic fiction"? Do you mean adjustment-power-type effects aren't as common in heroic fiction? Well, no kidding. Everyone has two fists on the end of their arms. Guns, swords, and clubs are fairly simple to describe and use. But there are LOTS of examples of adjustments in heroic fiction, from Popeye's spinach to Rogue's power to the bite of a vampire to performance-enhancing drugs to poisons to diseases to the unstoppable monster that keeps getting more powerful the more you attack it.

 

I think I answered that above, they are not as easy to model effectively. By saying they are elusive, I allude to the fact that many remain unhappy with many elements of Adjustment Powers still, and while there will ALWAYS be unhappiness by some with various aspects of the system (you can't pelase all the people all the time) the Adjustment Powers remain subject to more intense criticism than other areas, even if each edition has continued to refine them (arguably, anyway, as noted a lot of ire has been raised in some regards from 4th to 5th changes). Certainly basically as you say there are a lot of examples and they vary. Popeye's is a good example of what is basically a combo of power and plot device (heck, I'd just be eating spinach more regularly than he so that Bluto wouldn't beat the crap out of me for some lengthy period of time before I got to it).

 

As stated, my point is simply that they're not as simple to model, and unlike most other areas they remain under considerable debate, which indicates to me we've not come far enough, wherever it is we may end up.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Thus' date=' clearly, since "being smart" is not synonymous with "high INT score" and a high INT is used to represent a character that can "take in and process information quickly", if you want a character that is intelligent but not perceptive, you dont have to buy their INT up since it's primary use is perception oriented. [/quote']

 

To me, Hero INT represents both perception and speed. The Reed Richards-type, who not only is very smart, but also is quick (ie deciphers the alien technology and starts it up in the middle of a firefight) has high INT. The solid researcher who comes up with Nobel-worthy results, but takes weeks or months to do so (eg. Hank Pym; the Beast) may be equally smart, but is not as fast, and thus has lower INT in Hero terms.

 

A nobel prize winner could well have an 8 (or less) INT. Very smart, but slow and methodical, not prone to leaps of advancement and understanding.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

To me, Hero INT represents both perception and speed. The Reed Richards-type, who not only is very smart, but also is quick (ie deciphers the alien technology and starts it up in the middle of a firefight) has high INT. The solid researcher who comes up with Nobel-worthy results, but takes weeks or months to do so (eg. Hank Pym; the Beast) may be equally smart, but is not as fast, and thus has lower INT in Hero terms.

 

A nobel prize winner could well have an 8 (or less) INT. Very smart, but slow and methodical, not prone to leaps of advancement and understanding.

Agreed

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

(snip) And if you like' date=' you can use a font ten times larger and shaped to look like it's carved in stone, but it still won't make FREd (or the HSB) into the Bible.[/quote']

 

BLASPHEMER! STONE HIM!!

 

The game is supposed to approximate, as closely as practical, the real world. (snip)

 

(in response to Bblackmoor's point)

 

Adventure fiction must approximate the real world fairly closely, otherwise it disrupts the willfull suspension of disbelief. I just eliminate the middleman.

 

"fairly closely"? For certain genres, depending upon what you mean, surely, but that "middleman" is the Pacific Ocean! Ignoring it is nonsensical. That suspension of disbelief centers on "fairly closely", for the vast majority of heroic fiction (even the vast majority of good heroic fiction, though a "less vast" one I'd readily admit), meaning that people have uncanny accuracy when it counts, amazing luck, and/or abilities we just don't see in real life. I don't disagree there's a small fraction of realistic heroic fiction that is in fact so realistic it isn't distinguishable from what I suppose is best called realistic nonheroic fiction, but "heroic fiction" is a stake in the ground. By throwing out the "middleman" you'd better vastly revise the Injured and Impaired rules and BODY in general as well as STUN because HERO sure as heck doesn't do a great job of modeling reality.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

To be clear on this "middleman"...

 

page 558 in 5ER, emphases mine:

 

"In constructing these rules,a relatively simple set of guidelines were used. The goal was to keep the mechanics reasonably simple, encourage roleplaying, and create a flavor similar to that in books, movies, and comics. Most important was giving the game the "feel" of a good action novel or a movie. When realism conflicted with that goal, realism took second place - gaming is about adventure and excitement and larger-than-life deeds."

 

However, to grant you your point where due, Phil, it does say later "Above all, the HERO System is intended to be fleixble and open-ended - capable of simulating any real or fictional situation."

 

I feel the prior paragraph as it discusses the specific rules construction supersedes this comment, but I wanted to give you your due in where it is reflected in the design considerations.