What should be DROPPED from HERO?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

You're getting way too hung up on labels' date=' Phil.[/quote']What makes you think that?

 

Your recent posts on the subjects of Intelligence, Desolid, and Density Increase.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

depending upon what you mean[/i], surely, but that "middleman" is the Pacific Ocean! Ignoring it is nonsensical. That suspension of disbelief centers on "fairly closely", for the vast majority of heroic fiction (even the vast majority of good heroic fiction, though a "less vast" one I'd readily admit), meaning that people have uncanny accuracy when it counts, amazing luck, and/or abilities we just don't see in real life.

I think this is just a matter of semantics. I don't think we disagree here. How close is "fairly closely"? When Indiana Jones reaches back just in time to grab his hat before the stone wall comes down, I think, "cool!" But when he falls from an airplane in a rubber raft which miraculously stays in a horizontal position and lands on the ground with the same impact as falling out of bed, I think, "give me a break!"

 

We're getting WAAAAYYY of the subject here but when I said "I eliminated the middleman" I simply meant in terms of the conversation.

 

Game System -simulates-> Heroic Fiction -simulates-> reality

 

I simplified it to:

 

Game System -simulates-> reality

 

Was that so wrong?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I get the feeling we're speaking two different languages here, in which case this post is pointless, but I'll try anyway.

 

Thats quite a lot of vitriol for a +1 Font size' date=' but whatever fills your sails man.[/quote']

Eh? Vitriol? I'm not the one who was shouting. It looks to me like the font is about twice the size. So why did you "shout"?

 

As far as refuting and blah blah blah, whatever youre on about,

No vitriol there, is there?

it says very clearly that INT is primarily about perceiving and assimilating, and not about knowledge or thinking. It even specifically says that a person with a 10 INT could be either a genius or ignorant. Further, many animals have greater than 10 INT, and the reason is because they are alert and perceptive.

 

Thus, clearly, since "being smart" is not synonymous with "high INT score" and a high INT is used to represent a character that can "take in and process information quickly", if you want a character that is intelligent but not perceptive, you dont have to buy their INT up since it's primary use is perception oriented.

I don't see where this interpretation comes from.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I think this is just a matter of semantics. I don't think we disagree here. How close is "fairly closely"? When Indiana Jones reaches back just in time to grab his hat before the stone wall comes down, I think, "cool!" But when he falls from an airplane in a rubber raft which miraculously stays in a horizontal position and lands on the ground with the same impact as falling out of bed, I think, "give me a break!"

 

We're getting WAAAAYYY of the subject here but when I said "I eliminated the middleman" I simply meant in terms of the conversation.

 

Game System -simulates-> Heroic Fiction -simulates-> reality

 

I simplified it to:

 

Game System -simulates-> reality

 

Was that so wrong?

Heh, well, you did hit a very personal note of sympathy with that specific Indiana Jones example, that ride down the mountainside was too much for me, though it wasn't the rubber raft not breaking per se, it was (IIRC) the whole series of events down to the bottom, though it's been so long all I remember was thinking how ridiculous it was, EVEN in that context.

 

Yes, it was SO wrong! Well, that just hit a bug-a-boo (sp?) of mine, but thanks for the note, I see what you mean and sounds like, whether we're off by degrees or not, we're on the general mark I take it. And even if not, I'd certainly agree to disagree at this point, but thanks for the clarification.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Eh? Vitriol? I'm not the one who was shouting. It looks to me like the font is about twice the size. So why did you "shout"?

It's just emphasized to make it clear that it is a excerpt from the book. It's font size +1. It's this thing called markup, as in HTML. If you choose to interpret it as "shouting", I'd say that you are a tad sensitive/excitable.

 

No vitriol there, is there?

None on my end.

 

I don't see where this interpretation comes from.

I dont see how you could not.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

It's just emphasized to make it clear that it is a excerpt from the book.

 

It might have been better to enclose it in bb-style quote tags, like so:

 

This is a quotation from Hero System, Fifth Edition, Revised.

 

That would make the quotation clear, and would not be misinterpreted as shouting. Just a suggestion.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

It might have been better to enclose it in bb-style quote tags, like so:

 

 

 

That would make the quotation clear, and would not be misinterpreted as shouting.

Eh. 6 of 1.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

It does tend to come across as shouting, FYI. I thought you were, though by the same token I didn't take it as offensive.

[Fitz]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Well, for my part my immediate interpretion was that it was an html markup error, not shouting

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Some seriously thin skinned folks around here, apparantly. OMG, the text is so large!

 

All caps is generally considered to be shouting, LIKE THIS.

 

Just to be extra careful not to potentially offend anyone's delicate sensibilities, I suppose from now on I should switch to extra small font. Or would that be considered to be whispering? Ah, such a dilemna.

 

FRED Page 23/ 5ER Page 37

 

INTELLIGENCE (INT)

---

Intelligence represents a character's ability to take in and process information quickly. It does not necessarily reflect knowlege of lack thereof (a character could be ignorant or a genius, but still have an INT of 10). INT has more to do with processing and reacting to information than with raw learning.

 

Lets crack open the bestiary, shall we?

BESTIARY Page 10

 

INTELLIGENCE (INT)

---

 

As the HERO System 5th Edition notes, INT reflects a character's ability to perceive, process, and appropriately react to information quickly. Thus, many animals have INT's in the standard 8-12 range common to most "normal" characters -- after all, their lives often depend, on a day-to-day basis, upon their ability to detect and escape danger. But this does not mean they are capable of learning to read, talking, reasoning as well as a human, thinking abstractly, or the like. An animal's ability -- or, more accurately, lack of ability -- to do such things is reflected by the Physical Limitation "Limited Intellect".

 

 

Wow; that's like an entirely different statement.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Their called that because that's the real world phenomenon that the game system construct is trying to simulate. Someone might want to run an RPG in which intelligence has an impact. The HERO system allows you to do this by supplying a Characteristic called INT. HERO calls it Intelligence because it's supposed to represent intelligence. HERO represents martial arts with a set of Skills that it calls Martial Arts. The game designers saw that martial arts exist in the real world' date=' and therefore someone might like to simulate them in a game. Same with intelligence, strength, dexterity, running, dodging, radar, etc.[/quote']

One: If INT = what someone call's "intelligence" in the real world, then was what Drain simulate? That thing that makes the water go away in the sink perhaps? Maybe something that just makes you tired...

 

Two: I thought "intelligence" is what those satillites are for... spying on the enemy and such to know what he's doing. Maybe it's just mental powers. What kind of mental power? The ones that the mind have I guess.

 

Three: Look them up - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=intelligence

 

There are as many definition of the word intelligence that mean "information, or the gathering/acquiring of information" as there are any that include "thought and reason." In fact, for most dictionaries, the acquisition and understanding of information is the primare definition of intelligence, a facilty with which all living things are capable (though let's lot get into whether or not an oak three has an INT stat; I think it would, though for most game purposes it doesn't mater).

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perception

 

True, they're not synonymous, but it's clear that one does lead to the other. Perhaps the game desingers decided to make it simple by naming the Characteristic INT and pasing PER off of it, rather than the other way around because it would sound silly.

 

Four: I can't quote FREd on this because I lent it out to a new player, but I'm pretty sure there's a phrase somewhere there that says not to get hung up on what things are called. Just because a Power/Characteristic/Talent or whatever has a certian name, doesn't mean it has to be exactly that. You're statement that INT = intelligence, and not perception is like saying that Energy Blast = energy blast and not thrown rock.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Wow; that's like an entirely different statement.

Congrats! I think you may have been the first person to pull off a sarcastic statement via the internet... without needing to give out an explination that it was so.

 

 

Now where's my "tip the hat" emoticon?

 

For the record, I never thought you were shouting; I just thought you sucked at markup. but maybe it was just the boards... they do funny things you know.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Congrats! I think you may have been the first person to pull off a sarcastic statement via the internet... without needing to give out an explination that it was so.

 

 

Now where's my "tip the hat" emoticon?

 

For the record, I never thought you were shouting; I just thought you sucked at markup. but maybe it was just the boards... they do funny things you know.

Well, it's like a different statement in that huge lettering implies the same as caps, "I WANT YOU TO GET THIS, DO YOU GET IT?" as opposed to the smaller which is more matter-of-fact, "here's something to consider." In my experience on the web, people generally use very large fonts the same as caps. I don't think shouting is necessarily wrong, mind you, and as stated I see no reason to take offense anyway. But there is certainly an emphatic/pressing nature to very large lettering to me.

 

Always glad to discuss the most trivial of points!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Congrats! I think you may have been the first person to pull off a sarcastic statement via the internet... without needing to give out an explination that it was so.

 

 

Now where's my "tip the hat" emoticon?

Spare the wear on your hat, the compliment is sufficient.

 

For the record, I never thought you were shouting; I just thought you sucked at markup. but maybe it was just the boards... they do funny things you know.

Yeah, that font tag is a treacherous beast.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Well, it's like a different statement in that huge lettering implies the same as caps, "I WANT YOU TO GET THIS, DO YOU GET IT?" as opposed to the smaller which is more matter-of-fact, "here's something to consider." In my experience on the web, people generally use very large fonts the same as caps. I don't think shouting is necessarily wrong, mind you, and as stated I see no reason to take offense anyway. But there is certainly an emphatic/pressing nature to very large lettering to me.

 

Always glad to discuss the most trivial of points!

 

 

Well apparantly for many the medium really is the message.

 

Perhaps a more tasteful arrangement on eggshell white would be more suitable to some people's elevated sensibilities of netiquette.

 

FRED Page 23/ 5ER Page 37

 

INTELLIGENCE (INT)

---

Intelligence represents a character's ability to take in and process information quickly. It does not necessarily reflect knowlege of lack thereof (a character could be ignorant or a genius, but still have an INT of 10). INT has more to do with processing and reacting to information than with raw learning.

 

Lets crack open the bestiary, shall we?

BESTIARY Page 10

 

INTELLIGENCE (INT)

---

 

As the HERO System 5th Edition notes, INT reflects a character's ability to perceive, process, and appropriately react to information quickly. Thus, many animals have INT's in the standard 8-12 range common to most "normal" characters -- after all, their lives often depend, on a day-to-day basis, upon their ability to detect and escape danger. But this does not mean they are capable of learning to read, talking, reasoning as well as a human, thinking abstractly, or the like. An animal's ability -- or, more accurately, lack of ability -- to do such things is reflected by the Physical Limitation "Limited Intellect".

 

Wouldnt want to violate the boundaries of good taste or social consciousness, afterall.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I see you're as eager to discuss trivial points!

 

What I like about the background is it's closer to 5ER!

 

And sure, the medium is the message to an extent, but any further and we're now moving from comedic enjoyment to NGD philosphical discussions...

[lemming]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Well apparantly for many the medium really is the message.

 

Perhaps a more tasteful arrangement on eggshell white would be more suitable to some people's elevated sensibilities of netiquette.

 

Ahhh! I'm blind! I've been conditioned by the dark theme!

*lemming shakes fist somewhere to the left of Killer Shrike*

[Susano]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I think they should take out all the spaces between the words. Would make the book a lot smaller and easier to handle.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I think they should take out all the spaces between the words. Would make the book a lot smaller and easier to handle.

 

Very creative - but then readers who vocalize will suffocate reading a paragraph!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

A further throught - what about dropping "Always on" and rolling it into a broader "Limited Control over Power" category which would also include "NO Conscious COntrol" and cover all situations where the character lacks full control over the activation and deactivation of his power?

[Dust Raven]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Very creative - but then readers who vocalize will suffocate reading a paragraph!

They should learn to play the didgeridoo then. Learning to play teaches you to inhale and exhale simultaneously.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Learning to play teaches you to inhale and exhale simultaneously.

 

If I inhaled and exhaled simultaneously, I think I'd strain something.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

A further throught - what about dropping "Always on" and rolling it into a broader "Limited Control over Power" category which would also include "NO Conscious COntrol" and cover all situations where the character lacks full control over the activation and deactivation of his power?

Might as well have a Limitation called "This Power Belongs To The GM But Is Written On This Character Sheet Because It Is Useful To The Character In Some Way He Does Not Control"... say about a -1/4 or so?

 

Oh, this is the dropped thread isn't it?

[Susano]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

They should learn to play the didgeridoo then. Learning to play teaches you to inhale and exhale simultaneously.

 

I thought the idea was you could "play" the didgeridoo when inhaling and exhaling, so you have a constant tone.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I thought the idea was you could "play" the didgeridoo when inhaling and exhaling' date=' so you have a constant tone.[/quote']

 

Well, my Saxophone teacher could play and breathe at the same time too.

 

The trick (iirc) is to breathe through the nose while using the cheeks to push air out.