What should be DROPPED from HERO?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Why?

 

Because having consistent game mechanics makes the game easier to learn, easier to play, and easier to modify without throwing other parts of the game system out of whack.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I like power defense.

 

Why?

[Agent X]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Because having consistent game mechanics makes the game easier to learn' date=' easier to play, and easier to modify without throwing other parts of the game system out of whack.[/quote'] Even at the expense of logic? Highly intelligent people aren't necessarily going to notice things more often with their senses which is generally what perception rolls are about. If you want a characteristic, you could make Perception a characteristic.

[Agent X]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Why?

Remember that power defense thread from a while ago? I explained why I like power defense in that one.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I also like Power Defense. I do think it's one of those Powers that needs a little adjucation from the GM on how it's used in the campaign though. I typically encourage (or require) Adjustment Powers to be bought versus a SFX (at least +1/4), and I similarly encourage (or require) Power Defense to take a Limitation (only versus SFX). This solves it for me, while still allowing constructs that would require plain Power Defense (or an Adjustment Power that's only versus one Power/Characteristic).

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Highly intelligent people aren't necessarily going to notice things more often with their senses...

 

And people who are musclebound aren't necessarily better climbers. If you start pulling that thread, the whole skill system will unravel. It's an abstraction to make the game playable. Overthinking it isn't productive.

[nexus]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

nitpick: Climbing is Dex based.

 

And if you're character is agile but a good climber you can just get Climbing skill, but Perception in the current rules is irrevocably tied to Intelligence. If you are highly intelligent you will be very perceptive.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

nitpick: Climbing is Dex based.

 

Ah, that's right. It didn't used to be. Mea culpa. Well, bad example, then, but the point is the same.

[JmOz]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

On Power Defence: If it required a limitation on it then I would be fine with it (Only vs Poisons or what have you)

[Rapier]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Even at the expense of logic? Highly intelligent people aren't necessarily going to notice things more often with their senses which is generally what perception rolls are about. If you want a characteristic' date=' you could make Perception a characteristic.[/quote']

I think you are being too literal with the word Intelligence. I've always looked at INT as a combination of a couple of factors:

 

1) General Knowledge - How well read you are, both classically and current events -- Retention

2) Your ability to understand events -- Learning

3) Your ability to use the knowledge your already have -- The classic D&D Wisdow -- Common Sense

4) Your ability to take in/absorb information -- Perception

 

PER isn't so much being able to see something as it is being aware enough of your surroundings to see something and then to make something of what you are seeing. Being that we only have a single characteristic to represent all the mental stats (EGO is more a WillPower, sense of self and not quite the 'mental' I'm referring to here), it really has to pick up the slack and be the jack-of-all-characteristics.

[Rapier]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

nitpick: Climbing is Dex based.

 

And if you're character is agile but a good climber you can just get Climbing skill, but Perception in the current rules is irrevocably tied to Intelligence. If you are highly intelligent you will be very perceptive.

In Uni I knew a kid that we called Doogie. He not only looked like him, but he had that strange socially inept, smart guy thing going on. He was a REALLY good amateur magician. He could pull sleight of hand that could make the most jaded of us ooh and aah. He could make coins dance across his knuckles and all that fun stuff. He also had hella hand-eye coordination. He was VERY dextruous. He was also clumsy as hell and was constantly falling over or tripping on something.

 

I think this is where bblackmoor is going. There are many facets to most of the characteristics. The list could logically be expanded to 50 characteristics. However, for simplicity's (and sanity's) sakes we have limited them to a few and grouped them under common SFX.

[nexus]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

In Uni I knew a kid that we called Doogie. He not only looked like him, but he had that strange socially inept, smart guy thing going on. He was a REALLY good amateur magician. He could pull sleight of hand that could make the most jaded of us ooh and aah. He could make coins dance across his knuckles and all that fun stuff. He also had hella hand-eye coordination. He was VERY dextruous. He was also clumsy as hell and was constantly falling over or tripping on something.

 

I think this is where bblackmoor is going. There are many facets to most of the characteristics. The list could logically be expanded to 50 characteristics. However, for simplicity's (and sanity's) sakes we have limited them to a few and grouped them under common SFX.

 

Of course, it all comes down to where you think the line should be drawn. I do lean towards divorcing perception from intelligence because, in my personal expericnce, I've run into allot of people I would give high Int that weren't very observant more than people with great hand/eye coordination that were clumsy.

 

I mean you could represent your friend pretty easily. Normal or lower dex and a high Sleight of Hand and other hand/eye skills. But you can't seperate your Perception from your Intellect without getting a bit more complicated.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

You should try this out one game. Just drop everyone's per roll to 11-. I'm sure we'll be happy to try this out.

You're mean to a couple of your fellow players!

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Power Defence should be dropped

 

Powers that use it will need to be reworked some (most can get a NND type of defence added to them and retain balance)

Good catch - I agree with this one, I recall discussing this before.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I like power defense.

I don't.

 

:

 

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

On two weapon shooting: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cgi-bin/comic.pl?comic=35

I know I'll post this in two threads, due to relevancy, but as two-handed shooting, it's an important ability for Syndrome in the Incredibles, when he snags the family, he uses the same shot from each of his control units on his wrists in the same phase.

[Agent X]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Ah' date=' that's right. It didn't used to be. Mea culpa. Well, bad example, then, but the point is the same.[/quote'] I don't think it is.

[Agent X]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I think you are being too literal with the word Intelligence. I've always looked at INT as a combination of a couple of factors:

 

1) General Knowledge - How well read you are, both classically and current events -- Retention

2) Your ability to understand events -- Learning

3) Your ability to use the knowledge your already have -- The classic D&D Wisdow -- Common Sense

4) Your ability to take in/absorb information -- Perception

 

PER isn't so much being able to see something as it is being aware enough of your surroundings to see something and then to make something of what you are seeing. Being that we only have a single characteristic to represent all the mental stats (EGO is more a WillPower, sense of self and not quite the 'mental' I'm referring to here), it really has to pick up the slack and be the jack-of-all-characteristics.

Hmmm, I can see your point but I still have issues with it. It seems like you are invoking a sort of Sherlock Holmes defense that only applies to somer characters in fiction.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Even at the expense of logic? Highly intelligent people aren't necessarily going to notice things more often with their senses which is generally what perception rolls are about. If you want a characteristic' date=' you could make Perception a characteristic.[/quote']

I'm sure this has been said, but I would comment in any case that lots of highly intelligent people seem oblivious to their surroundings.

 

Of course, the base issue is that INT - like other chars - is fudgey.

 

I don't really mind that on the whole, but I think a case could be made for divorcing PER. It's similar from divorcing some derived chars from DEX. I can see it either way on this one. And certainly one can buy INT that does not affect PER. I do think the connection between INT and PER is real but haphazard in real life (obviously an unprovable statement); however, in heroic fiction it is much stronger, and that's what's important here.

 

Given heroic fiction, I could see PER more as a compound trait half-driven by INT and half by CPs or Senses, though that does get more complex, easily perhaps unnecessarily so.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Ah' date=' that's right. It didn't used to be. Mea culpa. Well, bad example, then, but the point is the same.[/quote']

I think, though, on the plus side, the rules allow for changing the base of a skill. Given this, I'm pretty happy with the structure, as even if you don't like a particular basis or it doesn't fit your concept, the rules give a solid remedy.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

In Uni I knew a kid that we called Doogie. He not only looked like him, but he had that strange socially inept, smart guy thing going on. He was a REALLY good amateur magician. He could pull sleight of hand that could make the most jaded of us ooh and aah. He could make coins dance across his knuckles and all that fun stuff. He also had hella hand-eye coordination. He was VERY dextruous. He was also clumsy as hell and was constantly falling over or tripping on something.

 

I think this is where bblackmoor is going. There are many facets to most of the characteristics. The list could logically be expanded to 50 characteristics. However, for simplicity's (and sanity's) sakes we have limited them to a few and grouped them under common SFX.

Which is the argument to keep PER linked to INT.

 

Relating back to an earlier discussion on the underlying metarules/toolkit from which implicitly HERO is drawn, HERO does have a reliance (however sophisticated or bloated, whichever word you prefer, it has become) upon a notion of distilling to the lowest common denominator wherever it is possible even if it requires a bit of stretching - so long as it does not detract from heroic drama. Certainly that is a powerful argument for retaining PER with INT and not divorcing out many of the chars' derivations. Similarly, it does help create a basis for Power Defense and other abstractions in this name, although at that point, without saying what's right or wrong, the level of abstraction of course becomes more subject to debate.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I don't think it is.

Well, I don't see how Climbing is any more clearly built on DEX than STR (note the use of the word "clearly"). Don't get me wrong, I support the abstractoin either way, but like a lot of skills it's not a straightforward relationship.

 

As stated, I don't have a problem with this one due to the rules' method of reconciling that. Theoretically one could/should provide for skills based on more than one char, e.g., Climbing = 9+((INT/5)/2)+(DEX/5)/2), but that theory is not too easy a practice in a game already involving "too much math", or so the criticism goes.

[Christougher]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Get rid of Images. Fold it into Change Environment. Drop most of the other addons that are just really tiny version of other powers. Linked exists for a reason. Nuke the silly negative CSLs as a separate thing, and give CE the ability to give positive benefits, then it becomes the ability to influence other character's CHA rolls.

 

Drop the name of the optional power described under aid. I'm not writing 'sucker' on my character sheet. It's called Boost in my game.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Hmmm' date=' I can see your point but I still have issues with it. It seems like you are invoking a sort of Sherlock Holmes defense that only applies to somer characters in fiction.[/quote']

I think Rapier's take is close to how INT is used in many if not most campaigns. One "betrayal" of this is whether people base KSes on INT or keep them as GENERAL. I think the rules are almost ambivalent as to just how far you take INT. It's an interesting discussion.

 

I don't think you're wrong, I am just saying I'm not sure there's much of a way to be sure of the right answer.

[Kristopher]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Sure, you can get rid of Power Defense...just as soon as you get rid of Drain, Dispell, Transfer, Aid, etc, etc, etc. If the system is going to have Adjustment Powers, it must have Adjustment Defense... AKA "Power Defense".

 

Speaking of Adjustment Powers, I have to speak in defense of Transfer. Sure, it does the same basic thing that a construct of Drain and Aid would do. However, it does it far more elegantly and quickly. The concepts it is used to construct are common enough that it would harm the game to get rid of it and instead require a cludgy compound power -- with Transfer, you roll ONE set of effect dice, as opposed to two with Drain+Aid, and the amount you gain is directly tied to the amount you managed to take.