What should be DROPPED from HERO?

[LoneWolf]

Check page 183 of the 1st rule book.  It states there are 3 categories (Physical, Energy, and Mental). The third sentence in that section lists what type of damage it covers (Normal, AVAD, Killing etc.)  and ends with any other type of damage the GM allows in its category.   The phrase in its category makes it clear the attack has to be appropriate for the type of damage negation purchased. 

 

From the looks of it people have been overlooking that phrase and thinking it does more than it does.  If it were allowed, I would copy and paste that paragraph.  
 

Edited October 5, 2023 by LoneWolf

[unclevlad]

I'm well aware of it...but an attack against Power Def does not fit any of these categories.  SFX does not trump defense type;  it can affect visualization or the storytelling, but IMO it can never fundamentally alter the nature.  An attack against Power Def has nothing whatsoever to do with PD or ED or Mental Defense.  

 

At the VERY least, the rules are *terribly* written because many of us in this thread don't agree with your take, and rely more, I think, on my argument...it's nonsensical to assign a standard defense type to a non-standard attack.

 

Oh...if you like, here's an example of "other things in its category."  Mental Damage Negation probably should apply to Mind Control, despite the fact that it's not doing "damage" per se.

 

If PD doesn't apply, then physical damage negation doesn't apply.  And so on.  SO much simpler.

[Gauntlet]

8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

If we were to keep Damage Negation in this exercise then I would want to drop the protection against drains and AVLD.  Do that, and the price makes sense.

 

Damage Negation doesn't protect against Drains already. It is against PD, ED, or Mental.

 

4 hours ago, dmjalund said:

is Drain Physical or Energy?

 

Neither. It is a drain, and is against power defense, unless it is bought as an attack against alternate defense of course.

 

20 hours ago, dmjalund said:

I don't see why Damage Negation (or Reduction) affects AVLDs or NNDs because once it is no longer being defended by PD or ED how is it Physical or Energy? there could be versions  of the defenses that basically cover all damage, but not the ones i see in the book.

 

For the cost of Damage Reduction, I can definitely see it against AVLDs or NNDs. 

[Chris Goodwin]

On 10/4/2023 at 4:34 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

I remember Blazing Away! The description noted that, while it was not effective at hitting targets, it counted as an extremely violent action for, IIRC, +4d6 to a PRE attack.

I didn't remember this thread, though

 

I think I came up with the Blazing Away plus 1 Billion Charges on an AoE attack, so you get to take advantage of the scatter. 

[LoneWolf]

@unclealad If the attack is outside one of the categories the character purchased damage negation for then it is not covered.  So, the attack going against power defense would not be reduced by damage negation. Damage negation specifies it only works on attacks doing actual damage, and gives examples of it not working on entangles, flashes or transforms so why should it work on mind control?

 

@Gauntlet Damage negation can apply to drain BODY or STUN, but if the attack has the right special effect.  I could have a drain with the special effect of an electrical attack.  If that is the case damage negation energy would work, if it drained BODY or STUN.  Also, AVLD and NND can have physical or energy as the defense.   An example is a nerve strike where the defense is ridged armor.  
 

[unclevlad]

This horse has been beaten to death, and the hide is the covering now for a whole bunch of baseballs. 

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

@Gauntlet Damage negation can apply to drain BODY or STUN, but if the attack has the right special effect.  I could have a drain with the special effect of an electrical attack.  If that is the case damage negation energy would work, if it drained BODY or STUN.  Also, AVLD and NND can have physical or energy as the defense.   An example is a nerve strike where the defense is ridged armor.  

 

Per the way the rules listed in the Hero System 6th Edition Volume 1 it appears that it cannot be used for a drain. All descriptions are for standard physical, energy, and mental attacks. Just because it calls them "DC"s in Hero designer does not mean that it is for Drain attacks. I have submitted a question concerning this in the HERO System 6th Edition Rules Questions section.

[LoneWolf]

Look on page 183 of the rule book and in the second paragraph it specifically states, “it works on Normal Damage, AVADs Killing Attacks, Drain STUN and Drain BODY (but not other types of Drain) and any other damage the GM allows it to affect in its category.”  That is a direct quote form the book. 

 

People are focusing on part of the sentence and ignoring the rest.   Damage Negation can affect any damage of the category it is bought for.  This does not mean it affects all those types of damage all the time, or that it should never affect those types of damage. For Damage Negation to work it has to be an attack of the appropriate type.  My NND could be some sort of microwave energy that heats the target from the inside ignoring all armor and a characters normal ED, but that attack is still energy.   A character with Damage Negation energy would get it vs that attack.  On the other hand my NND could be a direct attack on the characters soul.  That attack is neither physical, energy or mental, so a character with all three types of damage negation would not affect it.   

 

This is no different than buying Desolidification with the limitation physical only.  Would a character with that power take damage from a nerve strike even if they did not have the defense?  The argument that Damage Negation is too cheap because of this does not change the fact this is how it is supposed to work. 
 

[Grailknight]

Actually, the part you're all ignoring is the Limitation to make Damage Negation only affect Normal damage and AVAD's. That makes it ineffective against all Drains and KA's. There are already rules to limit effectiveness in RAW.

.

Damage Negation versus AVAD's is merely an all-inclusive method to not take full STUN from them. And it's still restricted to matching damage type, (Physical, Energy or Mental) so it has to be purchased for each category. Yes, if you invest in all three types you can mitigate all AVAD's, (There's no such thing as a damaging power that doesn't fall into one of them no matter how convoluted you twist the SFX.) but the cost is high. Using Damage Negation as a character's main defense takes a larger points investment than any other method by percentage. I've never seen a PC use it for anything other than being able to shrug off attacks that share their SFX.

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Look on page 183 of the rule book and in the second paragraph it specifically states, “it works on Normal Damage, AVADs Killing Attacks, Drain STUN and Drain BODY (but not other types of Drain) and any other damage the GM allows it to affect in its category.”  That is a direct quote form the book. 

 

Thanks, I just also got that from the rule questions section. 

 

But I will have to say that definitely makes the power rather overpowering and will probably not allow it to be used in any games I run in the future.

[Grailknight]

Many powers are OP on villains. Trying to make a PC within the campaign guidelines using that power will show its flaws.

[LoneWolf]

It’s really not that overpowered.  It applies to a small number of drains and AVAD attacks.  The majority of them are not affected.  What it comes down to is special effect.  Most AVAD power defense is not going to be affected by Damage Negation.  If the attack is an energy or physical attack why does power defense stop it?  AVAD power defense are usually poison or disease or some other effect, not a physical or energy attack.  

 

What it will apply to are things like AVAD with the defense being physical resistant defense, or hardened defenses.  In 6th edition those are fairly cheap anyways in some cases they are a -0 limitation.  Damage Negation also makes a good defense for AVAD attacks.  This is the perfect defense for something that is supposed to do damage to anything it touches.  A NND with the defense of physical damage negation makes a perfect touch attack.      
 

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

 

Thanks, I just also got that from the rule questions section. 

 

But I will have to say that definitely makes the power rather overpowering and will probably not allow it to be used in any games I run in the future.

 

But also note that Simon's answer suggests it doesn't apply to Drains, because they don't do damage.  Note what he emphasized.

 

At the VERY least, the language is grossly ambiguous.  Even taking LW's point that NND vs. resistant physical defense, makes the attack physical...that doesn't work when the defense is, for example, Power Defense.  That's purely discretionary.  

 

It might be managed by saying the default is that the Negation *doesn't* generally apply to an AVAD or NND...unless the defense clearly slots it into Physical, Mental, or Energy.  But it's still too messy for my taste.  The power doesn't need it.