What should be DROPPED from HERO?

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

IMO' date=' it's really not necessary to make all the powers fit a "meta-toolkit" that keeps everything double-perfect consistent.[/quote']

I actually agree with this in that I think there would have to be exceptions in a few, I would hope rare, cases, but what I would ask you or others to bear in mind is that by developing such a base concept, it becomes easier to determine something really is an exception and then determine why it should be an exception and accept it or not, particularly for the game designers.

 

What I really liked about the new take on Talents is that it becomes easy to build new Talents (that is REALLY cool!) and moreover, it becomes easier to discuss costing as a balance/practical matter. That's why I think making Instant Change a Talent allows us the best of both worlds - we create the "exception" of recosting it a bit lower and creating a single, elegant construct instead of "Build Instant Change as Transform with blah-blah-blah." Similarly, lemming's suggestion of doing something similar for Regen becomes more sensible then. And it becomes easier to have the discussion on constructs in this light, which isn't to say we'll all EVER agree on the "right" way to do things or the "right" cost.

 

Aside - thinking in Futurama terms, I can see a Gary-head-avatar and a Hugh-head-avatar in their glass bubbles debating HERO 93rd Edition...

[Rapier]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Aha...so if HERO is like a programming development tool (like a C++ development system) you'd like to see the either (a) the assembly language used to write the development tool or ( the microcode for the processor on which it runs, depending on just how you want to look at it.

 

Gotcha!

Dude, geek much?

[The Horror]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Characteristics and skills

 

I haven't forgotten about that thread. It was a brilliant idea that deserves some hardcore implementation. When I finish my PhD I'll see about giving it a good looking over.

 

 

The Horror

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Aha...so if HERO is like a programming development tool (like a C++ development system)

Oh, man...

 

Whatever you do, please don't say "HERO" and "C++" in the same sentence.

 

 

Really.

 

 

 

Seriously.

 

 

 

[keithcurtis]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Transform is just Attack with different end results.

 

I like my old Cool Stuff model:

 

SNIP

 

(player and GM start punching each other)

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to OddHat again.

 

Keith "heeheehee" Curtis

[Agent X]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Has anyone mentioned dropping intelligence as the base for perception? Quite a few intelligent people aren't that perceptive when it comes to noticing just any old thing. It would be quite simple to give everyone a base 11 or less and modify with enhanced perception.

[zornwil]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Has anyone mentioned dropping intelligence as the base for perception? Quite a few intelligent people aren't that perceptive when it comes to noticing just any old thing. It would be quite simple to give everyone a base 11 or less and modify with enhanced perception.

I've been catching up on a lot of threads; I THINK someone mentioned it in a DIFFERENT thread, actually.

 

I have not attempted that divorce, but I am highly inclined to, I tend to agree with it, or at least PER should only be partially, much less, influenced by INT.

[Kristopher]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

But if you divorce PER from INT, that's one more thing I have to buy up, and I get that much more expensive as a character.

[lemming]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I've been catching up on a lot of threads; I THINK someone mentioned it in a DIFFERENT thread, actually.

 

I have not attempted that divorce, but I am highly inclined to, I tend to agree with it, or at least PER should only be partially, much less, influenced by INT.

You should try this out one game. Just drop everyone's per roll to 11-. I'm sure we'll be happy to try this out.

[Reneshat]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Matter of fact' date=' when I went to start playing Hero again I still had the 4th edition book, but my player's had a 5th edition book, and the very first character one of my new player's presented to me was a 2 weapon-fighting specialist. I was like WHAT? I then looked at those rules and said NO WAY. I never even agreed with D&D's assessment that holding 2 weapons in your hands really give you double the attacks. It made no sense under AD&D's minute long rounds. It makes even less sense under Hero's 2 or 3 second phases.[/quote']

 

That's funny, I've fought off two people, one on each side, with two swords, they each had one. I was able to independently aim and attack with each sword. I'm not saying it wasn't a pain, try fighting with peripheral vision, but I did it, and I beat them both. I'm not strong enough to do it with longswords or larger with great accuracy, but it can be done. I think you have a totally off base idea of how that stuff works.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

This sucks! I got off the boards for a while and when I come back there's this really cool thread (that started, what...yesterday?) and it's already over 100 posts. I don't want to read 100 posts. I'd find something I want to reply to that's already been dead for 6 hours and no one want's to talk about it anymore...

 

So what did I miss?

 

Anyway...I'd like to see Blazing Away dropped. I've never seen it used really and it takes up space on my character sheets.

 

I'd like to see the Based on CON Limitation either dropped or changed to an appropriate value. A -1 does not account for a Power becoming Visible, against normal defense (as opposed to mental), having range modifiers apply and everything else that goes with it. Or at the very least, have the value be more in Superheroic games, where those defenses are typically 20-30.

[Markdoc]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

EDIT: I realised I had forgotten to mention. When using two weapon fighting you never attack with the same strength as you would with a single weapon...or if you do you are ignoring the second weapon. Especially in fencing, the entire body is used behind an attack giving it quite a bit of force. .

 

Isn't this what I wrote? I am aware that two weapon fighting styles exist - as pointed out, I have myself trained in them. But the idea that having two single sticks, as in escrima, suddenly gives you twice as many attacks is ludicrous. I have two hands and two feet - so I suddenly get 4 times as many attacks if I fight unarmed?

 

Feh. Of course not - an effective HTH attack has to be launched from the body (centre of mass) and you have only one body, and one brain to direct it. We both agree that having a weapon in either hand (assuming you know how to use them) raises your threat level because an effective attack can come from either hand, without having to shift your mass as much as an offside strike with one weapon would require. But does having a single stick in either hand give you more attacks than a guy with a bo? Answer - from experience - NO. The guy with the Bo can also strike to either side.

 

Likewise with guns. Can you fire two pistols at the same time? Sure you can. Could you hit sometime with both? With practice, yes. Will you ever reach the same degree of accuracy with two as a skilled shooter with one? No, never - accuracy reqires concentration and you still only have one brain, and one pair of eyes. A skilled shooter with two pistols *might* be able to put the same number of slugs in the target in the same time as a skilled shooter with one, though I doubt it. No "real-world" justification for doubling his firepower exists.

 

Now as noted, I have no problem with two handed fighting in Hero system - I don't feel the rules as presented are abusive and they certainly mirror the movies and comics just fine: indeed I have a tendency towards two wepaon fighters in both FH and modern genres - although I have never bought 5th Ed. TWF - I tend to use it as a justification for extra levels or talents. I was just pointing out the need to distinguish between "cinematic" and real.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

That's funny' date=' I've fought off two people, one on each side, with two swords, they each had one. I was able to independently aim and attack with each sword. I'm not saying it wasn't a pain, try fighting with peripheral vision, but I did it, and I beat them both. I'm not strong enough to do it with longswords or larger with great accuracy, but it can be done. I think you have a totally off base idea of how that stuff works.[/quote']

 

Umm - And I have fought off two people - one to each side - with one sword. So what does that tell us? Certainly holding a second weapon increased my options slightly, but it sure as heck didn't increase my number of attacks any - it just made it easier to go one way or the other. A single Bo or Jo would have been just as good (better, actually).

 

cheers, Mark

[paigeoliver]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

If I was fighting a single opponent I would want 2 weapons, a long one and a short one (in my off hand). If I was fighting 2 opponents I would want a single weapon, held in both hands.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Oh, man...

 

Whatever you do, please don't say "HERO" and "C++" in the same sentence.

Ouch!

 

(wince!)

 

Apologies to all...I'd managed to forget him again (at least until now) and when typing that initially, it didn't trigger the memory!

[slaughterj]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I certainly wasn't. I just think the Five Powers Model is the perfect organizing model for the Hero system.

 

Each power falls under one of the Five Meta-Powers. The basic 1 per 5 is the model for attacks, the basic 1 per 1 is the basic model for defense, etc. Then you'd still have all the other separate powers as already listed in Hero... just categorized differently, and their structure bought with the based model in mind.

 

If, in the example of Regen, you actually need to create a new, playability, static effect that isn't really a lim or adv under Transform... just state that. It is still based on Transform... but deviates in the following ways for playability and flavor... This would provide a model for consistency, and a model that can be consciously deviated from with an explanation.

 

This gets away from Zornwil's explanation of how Hero was "hacked" together. (A great explanation by the way...) It still allows for those exceptions, it just makes sure they are deliberate and clear... not just stumbled upon.

 

My take anyway... YMMV.

 

I'm with you on this. I think that looking to Mutants & Masterminds would be useful as well - obviously they drew from Hero, so why not return the favor

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

It would be quite simple to give everyone a base 11 or less and modify with enhanced perception.

 

It would be simple, yes, but I think that Hero moving away from "no base stat" rolls was a good thing.

 

Have you considered basing Perception on another stat? What stat is most associated with people who notice things? People who pay attention to appearances, picking out minor details with a jewelers eye? There is a such a stat, and that stat is Comeliness.

[simplygnome]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

But does having a single stick in either hand give you more attacks than a guy with a bo? Answer - from experience - NO. The guy with the Bo can also strike to either side.

 

I agree with you here, but I am an avid supporter that a BO is considered a double weapon (as presented in D&D), and should be treated as if using a two weapon fighting skill. If you do not have the talent, or a skill to offset the offhand penalty, then you don't have to use the extra attack (and take all the minuses), but its certaintly an option, in my games anyhow. A BO is different from other weapons in that it has two easily accesible striking ends, when compared to another two-handed weapon (say a large two-handed maul, or sword). The Bo is gripped differently in most cases, and has two eaqually balanced striking areas.

 

I do think a person holding two sticks attacks more than a person holding one sword. The attacks while fighting never come at the same time, rather a few seconds after each other, but still within the 3 seconds of a phase or so.

 

To state background, I have trained in two weapon fighting with rapier combat, where the used weapons were very light and nimble. Mainly lunge attacks are used and the stances provided give excellent accuracy with both hands (considering that while attacking, blocking, and moving, the basic stance points the tips of both my blades into the neck or center mass of the opponent).

 

I do commonly attack twice in "one phase" because I have two weapons. With only one, by body is left at an angle (with arm extended) that I cannot strike again until I recover from that position. I imagine its the same with slashing attacks. When the body moves with the weapon, you need to bring that weapon "back up" into another striking position to strike again (in most cases, I know that sometimes there are options to swing from the new position, but I personally feel that is a form of weapon MAs here, using MPs). If I am holding two rapiers, once I lunge with one, I still have a tucked in arm with the other weapon, and can extend it INSTANTLY, at a different point on the body (I like to attack center mass and low most of the time. If I cant kill them, I almost always leg them, which is almost sure victory anyhow...*remembers a few bad scrimishes*..ermm..most of the time..heh).

 

IMHO, two weapon fighting in Fred is even bordering on underpowered, not in game mechanics, but in realization. The DCV penalty is horiddly obscene, considering on opponent with two weapons has an INCREDIBLE amount of defense, compared to a one hander. When weilding two weapons (namely a defensive secondarly) I can fend off a one handed sword weilder almost all day, if I can match his footwork, that is. (I like a modified FH version of TWF, btw).

 

Could you hit sometime with both? With practice' date=' yes. Will you ever reach the same degree of accuracy with two as a skilled shooter with one? No, never - accuracy reqires concentration and you still only have one brain, and one pair of eyes. No "real-world" justification for doubling his firepower exists.[/quote']

 

I dissagree with this as well, although I cant say I have much personal experience in shooting. The one basis I have on my belief is this:

Muscle Memory.

 

Do you know what DDR is? Its a video game that makes the user use both feet to hit four different corresponding arrows across the screen, sometimes in conjuction. The como's and speed of the game can get VERY ridiculous. A beginner player almost always has a tendancy to look down at his feet, thereby taking his eyes off the screen, ensuring that he will probably miss the next "volley" of attacks. Yet with practice an avid gamer can learn where his feet need to go, based on the visual stimuli he recieves on the screen, trusting in his muscle memory to move them where he knows they need to go.

 

From what little experience with ranged weapons I have (and most of those haven't been real weapons, ala paintball), I know that the same muscle memory exists. I know that I can judge a shot simply from pracitce...I know that gun needs to go "basically" here, so I point and shoot. Maybe someone not using two guns has practiced a bit more (ala, buying two CLs instead of TWF) but its VERY possible IMHO to shoot based on highed reflexes, due to practiced muscle memory. In this instance, he probably couldnt AIM, as per the manuever, but his normal OCV still seems to apply.

 

Anyways, to each his own version of the TOOLKIT =D

 

EDIT: DDR = Dance Dance Revolution FYI

[JmOz]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Power Defence should be dropped

 

Powers that use it will need to be reworked some (most can get a NND type of defence added to them and retain balance)

[simplygnome]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Odd, I rather like PowerDefense. It makes sense that some characters get powerdef., such as Paladins, and Clerical spells, to protect them from undead drains and such.

 

In fact, I have a Dwarf Racial packet that gives them natural PowerDefense only versus physical transformation spells, to show the stubborn nature of the dwarven biology.

 

EDIT: It would be nice if they changed to name to Alteration Defense, or something similar, so I could shorten it to AD, as opposed to writing out PD all the time, and getting it confused with Physical Defense =P

[Agent X]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

It would be simple, yes, but I think that Hero moving away from "no base stat" rolls was a good thing.

 

Have you considered basing Perception on another stat? What stat is most associated with people who notice things? People who pay attention to appearances, picking out minor details with a jewelers eye? There is a such a stat, and that stat is Comeliness.

I'm afraid I can't see a link between perception and comeliness.

 

I also don't see any analysis supporting your opinion that a base stat roll for perception would be bad.

[Agent X]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Power Defence should be dropped

 

Powers that use it will need to be reworked some (most can get a NND type of defence added to them and retain balance)

I like power defense.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

I'm afraid I can't see a link between perception and comeliness.

 

I wasn't being entirely serious. I don't have a problem with basing perception on INT.

 

I also don't see any analysis supporting your opinion that a base stat roll for perception would be bad.

 

On the contrary, I think having a base stat for perception rolls is a good thing. I think that getting rid of the "no base" rolls in Hero was a significant improvement. Rolls should either all be based on a stat, or none of them should.

[Agent X]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

Rolls should either all be based on a stat' date=' or none of them should.[/quote'] Why?

[lemming]

Re: What should be DROPPED from HERO?

 

On two weapon shooting: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cgi-bin/comic.pl?comic=35