Two Gun Kid = MPA?

[RDU Neil]

Question, as I don't have the book in front of me... how do the rules OFFICIALLY handle the classic John Wu two gun attack?

 

Assumptions: The character has paid points for a OAF: Gun, and another identical one (not the X2 for 5 points, but full points for the second gun)

 

They want to shoot both of them at either a single target or two different targets.

 

Now... a single gun (or energy blast or whatever) at two different targets... that is a Spread. Nice and easy.

 

A single gun fired multiple times at one target... Spread again.

 

A gun shot and an EB at one target is a Multiple Power Attack (since MPA's require the odd "different effect" ruling).

 

So how do the rules/maneuvers account for two attacks that are identical, but not the SAME power at the same target... or at two different targets?

 

What is this maneuver officially? I've always applied the basic Spread maneuver... but I don't think this is official.

 

(Not to mention, the whole "shoot him with both the sawed off and the pistol at the same time" maneuver, where both are RKA, but different effects. Similarly, shoot with both AP EB and regular EB at same time.)

 

I think I'm overlooking a simple, basic rule, but I'm not sure where it is stated. Clearly "two weapon fighting" is a skill, but where is the basic maneuver that allows this to take place. What bonus do you get from having two weapons as opposed to spreading with one? Is there a difference?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

Assumptions: The character has paid points for a OAF: Gun' date=' and another identical one (not the X2 for 5 points, but full points for the second gun)[/quote']

 

Is there a difference?

 

They want to shoot both of them at either a single target or two different targets.

 

I would call that a special effect of spreading the attack. You might consider buying the two guns in a Multipower: as a single attack with Reduced Penetration (for when they are fired at one target), and, if you're so inclined, a second slot with approximately half of the dice Limited such that they can only facilitate Spreading. You could also consider buying the attack as Area Effect, Selective, with a Limitation that it can only hit (at most) two targets.

 

There are lots of ways to handle it, really.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

Firing one gun at two targets is Rapid Fire, if you're allowing optional combat maneuvers.

 

Also note that firearms are built with the "Beam" option and cannot be Spread. (that is, if it's a real gun and not a "superpower-that-looks-like-a-gun")

 

Zeropoint

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

I believe if you have paid for two guns, they are considered separate powers and can be fired as a MPA, whether you paid full price or +5 for 2x as many guns.

 

Many of us get visions of The Amazing Centipede Man (62 extra arms, +30 points for 64x firearms) abusing the construct, and as a result some GM's require full price to be paid for each weapon, just as a character who bought powers with no focus would be required to pay full points for each of them.

 

Rapid Fire is another option, but the classic cowboy characters seem not to suffer for accuracy when firing two guns at once (otherwise he'd be the "Two Gun Unless It's a Tough Shot Kid").

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

(that is' date=' if it's a real gun and not a "superpower-that-looks-like-a-gun")[/quote']

 

There are no "real guns" in the game system, there are only Power constructions to approximate desired in-game effects. Every weapon in the game is defined by Powers. The appropriate Power you use to approximate the effect of the weapon depends on that specific weapon and how it will be used. If it will only ever hit one person, "Beam" could be an appropriate limitation. If it can hit several people, either because there is more than one barrel, more than one projectile, or some other reason, then Beam may not be appropriate. It all depends on what the desired end result is.

 

edit:

 

On the other hand, I think what RDU Neil may be asking is how a character in a Heroic level game, where they don't actually spend points to buy the weapons they use, can fire a gun in each hand (either at the same target or at separate targets). Rapid Fire, as Hugh suggests above, seems the most straightforward method.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

Rapid Fire is another option' date=' but the classic cowboy characters seem not to suffer for accuracy when firing two guns at once (otherwise he'd be the "Two Gun Unless It's a Tough Shot Kid").[/quote']

 

Maybe they're just really good.

[Frenchman]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

I think I'm overlooking a simple' date=' basic rule, but I'm not sure where it is stated. Clearly "two weapon fighting" is a skill, but where is the basic maneuver that allows this to take place. What bonus do you get from having two weapons as opposed to spreading with one? Is there a difference?[/quote']That maneuver is called sweep. You can find it 5ER 397.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

Question, as I don't have the book in front of me... how do the rules OFFICIALLY handle the classic John Wu two gun attack?

 

Assumptions: The character has paid points for a OAF: Gun, and another identical one (not the X2 for 5 points, but full points for the second gun)

 

They want to shoot both of them at either a single target or two different targets.

 

Now... a single gun (or energy blast or whatever) at two different targets... that is a Spread. Nice and easy.

Real guns are usually "Beam"'s, and thus can't be Spread.

 

 

A single gun fired multiple times at one target... Spread again.

Rapid Fire or Autofire on the gun.

 

A gun shot and an EB at one target is a Multiple Power Attack (since MPA's require the odd "different effect" ruling).

Actually, two normal damage causing attacks are not normally allowed via an MPA. A normal damage + a killing damage attack is allowed IIRC.

 

So how do the rules/maneuvers account for two attacks that are identical, but not the SAME power at the same target... or at two different targets?

 

 

What is this maneuver officially? I've always applied the basic Spread maneuver... but I don't think this is official.

Rapid Fire

(Not to mention, the whole "shoot him with both the sawed off and the pistol at the same time" maneuver, where both are RKA, but different effects. Similarly, shoot with both AP EB and regular EB at same time.)

Rapid Fire

I think I'm overlooking a simple, basic rule, but I'm not sure where it is stated. Clearly "two weapon fighting" is a skill, but where is the basic maneuver that allows this to take place. What bonus do you get from having two weapons as opposed to spreading with one? Is there a difference?

Rapid Fire is the Ranged equivalent of Sweep and essentially behaves like a Sweep except that all of the targets need only be in your front 180 degree facing rather than be adjacent IIRC.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

I was confusing "Spread" with "Rapid Fire"... as I thought Spread was the ranged equivalent of Sweep. Again, misusing terms as I've not got the book in front of me.

 

So Rapid fire would allow me to fire two separate weapons at two separate targets? Hmmm... in the same attack action?

 

This is where MPAs cause me grief. If I can shoot an EB and an RKA at one target at the same time... why can't I shoot two EBs at the same target at the same time? (If I have two separate EB powers...) Seems like a tacked on silly rule trying to "Fix" MPAs when it was realized how unbalancing this MIGHT be at times. Still, if I have a character who has is Equinox-like, and has a flame blast and an ice blast... I don't see why he can't use both in an MPA. Separate issue, though...

 

(On the 5 points for x2... there was another thread on this, but I've ruled that the x2 for 5 points bit is only for back-ups. You can't use both focused powers at the same time unless you pay full price for both attacks. If a .45 Pistol comes out to 12 RC points... you pay 12 RC points for the second one to by Two-Gun-Shadow-Rip-Off Man... not just 5. If you all the x2 to get attacks, then you get the horror of Cenitipede Man...as Hugh described above.)

 

Thanks all.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

I was confusing "Spread" with "Rapid Fire"... as I thought Spread was the ranged equivalent of Sweep. Again, misusing terms as I've not got the book in front of me.

 

So Rapid fire would allow me to fire two separate weapons at two separate targets? Hmmm... in the same attack action?

I dont have my book handy, but IIRC yes.

 

This is where MPAs cause me grief. If I can shoot an EB and an RKA at one target at the same time... why can't I shoot two EBs at the same target at the same time? (If I have two separate EB powers...) Seems like a tacked on silly rule trying to "Fix" MPAs when it was realized how unbalancing this MIGHT be at times. Still' date=' if I have a character who has is Equinox-like, and has a flame blast and an ice blast... I don't see why he can't use both in an MPA. Separate issue, though...[/quote'] For the same reason a MA with Offesive Strike, Fast Strike, and Martial Strike can't MPA all three on the same target -- game balance.

 

A GM can always make exceptions on a as-makes-sense basis, or make allowance for the option by requiring a player to buy a custom Combat Skill or similar to purchase access to it.

 

For instance, you could make up a Combat Skill called Paired Attack, defined as something like this:

 

Paired Attack: A Character with this Combat Skill is able to combine two specific attacks of the same type (two EB's, two Martial Manuever's with the same base element, etc) with Multiple Power Attacks. For 3 points the Character may do this with a -4 OCV -4 DCV penalty. For +2 points the Character may do this with a -2 OCV -2 DCV penalty. These penalties are in addition to any of the standard penalties applicable to an MPA. This Skill may be purchased multiple times to combine multiple attacks in this fashion.

[Jhamin]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

There are no "real guns" in the game system' date=' there are only Power constructions to approximate desired in-game effects. [/quote']

 

 

Then why is real weapon a valid limit?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

Then why is real weapon a valid limit?

 

The same reason you can buy Darkness vs. Hearing: it's a convenient label. Don't get caught up in what the game mechanics are called.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

Question' date=' as I don't have the book in front of me... how do the rules OFFICIALLY handle the classic John Wu two gun attack?[/quote']

 

The optional Combat Maneuver Rapid Fire was created for this purpose.

 

They want to shoot both of them at either a single target or two different targets.

 

Rapid Fire works in both ways.

 

Now... a single gun (or energy blast or whatever) at two different targets... that is a Spread. Nice and easy.

 

Also Rapid Fire.

 

A single gun fired multiple times at one target... Spread again.

 

How is this Spreading? Spreading either covers multiple hexes to affect multiple targets or spreads to increase the OCV vs a single target, but the target still only gets hit once. Have there been major changes to Spread that I'm unaware of?

 

In anycase, a single gun fired multiple times at one target is, once again, Rapid Fire (versatile little Combat Manuever, isn't it?)

 

A gun shot and an EB at one target is a Multiple Power Attack (since MPA's require the odd "different effect" ruling).

 

Hmmm...maybe. The examples of MPA's in the book state that if two powers are specifically meant for doing direct damage, you are better off using Sweep or Rapid Fire rather than MPA. MPA is for combining significantly different effects like an EB (effect: do direct damage) and Flash (Effect: Dull targets senses). An EB (effect: do direct damage) and a RKA (effect: Do direct damage) are too similar for MPA. Use Sweep or Rapid Fire instead (thats the suggestion in FREd)

 

So how do the rules/maneuvers account for two attacks that are identical, but not the SAME power at the same target... or at two different targets?

 

Again, (I'm sure you can guess) Rapid Fire!

 

What is this maneuver officially? I've always applied the basic Spread maneuver... but I don't think this is official.

 

See the above answer. Its "Optional" but still very "Official".

 

I think I'm overlooking a simple, basic rule, but I'm not sure where it is stated. Clearly "two weapon fighting" is a skill, but where is the basic maneuver that allows this to take place. What bonus do you get from having two weapons as opposed to spreading with one? Is there a difference?

 

You got it!

 

Two Weapon Fighting is a specialized form of Sweep and Rapid Fire. The bonus you get from Two Weapon fighting is:

 

A) You get to ignore off-hand penalty (-3 or possibly less) when using TWF skill.

You get to ignore the first -2 penalty from the Sweep/Rapid Fire Maneuver, thus getting "2 shots" or "2 strikes" before accruing penalties for further attacks.

 

See Sweep on page 263 and Rapid Fire on page 262 of the 5th edition rulesbook (I don't know what page in the Revised version, I don't have that yet, and don't really intend to get it. I don't need the "clarifications")

[Sean Waters]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

If someone has a 12d6 energy blast, not bought as a focus, just a 'mutant power', would you let them buy another 12d6 EB for +5 points?

[pinecone]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

Two guns can certainly do a MPA or use two weapon fighting or sweep and treat the second weapon as a special effect or build a John woo/Chow fat MultiPower OIF :Guns of oportunity...I think I posted something like that on the old board...both a Chow fat is a Super hero multi and a "Big bag of guns "Multi...Hero lets you do things lots of ways...personally I would not allow some one to MPA if he/she used the +5 option rather than pay full points...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

If someone has a 12d6 energy blast' date=' not bought as a focus, just a 'mutant power', would you let them buy another 12d6 EB for +5 points?[/quote']

 

No, but I would also tell anyone taking the "+5 points" focus option that he gets a backup device, not one uysable simultaneously with the original.

[zornwil]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

This discussion does not bode well for building Syndrome with a reliable non-GM-dependent ability to fire from both wrists at once, hitting two different targets with the same power! I'll hit the books in a few moments, but it sounds like most opinions are that this relies on a purely optional rule or the various dubious multi-foci rulings that have sprung up.

 

In the meantime if this sparks anyone's thoughts as to resolving this canonically and cleanly...do tell!

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

This discussion does not bode well for building Syndrome with a reliable non-GM-dependent ability to fire from both wrists at once' date=' hitting two different targets with the [b']same power[/b]!

 

I would say that's just a special effect of Area Effect, Selective.

[zornwil]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

I would say that's just a special effect of Area Effect' date=' Selective.[/quote']

You're no fun, no fun at all!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

I would say that's just a special effect of Area Effect' date=' Selective.[/quote']

Thats the route I went with "Gunman", but he can also Rapid Fire the AoE Selectives

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25451

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

This discussion does not bode well for building Syndrome with a reliable non-GM-dependent ability to fire from both wrists at once' date=' hitting two different targets with the [b']same power[/b]! I'll hit the books in a few moments, but it sounds like most opinions are that this relies on a purely optional rule or the various dubious multi-foci rulings that have sprung up.

 

In the meantime if this sparks anyone's thoughts as to resolving this canonically and cleanly...do tell!

Im not sure what your issue is with using "Optional" Manuevers. Personally, I use them all.

 

The basic manuevers cover "simple" things, but if you want to do something more complicated, that's what the Optional Manuevers are for. Two-gunning is more complicated; Rapid Fire directly covers it.

 

Even if you dont want to allow it to all characters for free for some reason, TWF essentially purchases access to the Manuever, so I dont see where you can claim it relies "on a purely optional rule". TWF makes it available even when Rapid Fire is not allowed.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

Yeah, I was wondering about that "purely optional rule" comment. I mean, the rule is official, simply optional (its more complicated, so some GM's might not want to include it, thats all). It doesn't break the system at all, and its not a house rule....

[zornwil]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

No serious issue other than attempting to do as best as possible without "requiring" their use since they are, after all, purely optional. Your comments are well-taken and I wasn't trying to over-state the issue, just see if it was possible to ensure the capability was there without requiring an option. Same as not resorting to a STOP power unless wholly appropriate, although tad bit more of something desirable nto to rely on. But just a tad bit.

 

PS - don't you tend to think that AoE Selective but "only 2 hexes" along with "requires the use of each focus (of 2 foci)" requires a somewhat greater limitation?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

There was a 3e (IIRC) character called Invictus who purchased +6d6 EB, only for spreading to hit two hexes, who had the definition of firing one EB from each hand.

 

I don't recall the limitation, but this could work for what you're looking for (assuming your powers aren't defined as unable to spread in the first place - but I'd likely still allow you to buy the extra 6 (or whatever) DC's for this purpose). It should also be a pretty steep limitation (-2), since you've taken out most of the uses for the attack. That makes the cost 10 points for a 6 hex spread, or 20 for a 12 hex spread (assuming no other limitations), which may be cheaper than buying a sufficiently extended "any area".

 

The other problem with Any Area, as you point out, is that it would target a hex, and hit all targets in all the hexes, so you'd have to limit that down pretty seriously to get "only two targets", and "roll to hit each target normally", as well as blending in the foci.

[zornwil]

Re: Two Gun Kid = MPA?

 

Thanks, that's good advice, I'll have to review it, the ZPE is a rather hefty attack so to some degree a modicum of efficiency is in order. I want to ensure he can hit the targets almost certainly given how it worked in the movie, of course skill levels with the attack can do that. But I bring it up just because that's an important difference in targetting between AoE and individual, although Selective, which I think I might have used, throws a wrinkle. Ah well, anyway, that may be the right prescription.