An EB by any other name...

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

I'm not sure how a 'glue gun' could reliably form any kind of barrier which couldn't easily be passed' date=' without an awful lot of time and effort or exactly the right circumstances.[/quote']

 

Maybe if it has a "spray" attachment, it could be used like Spider-Man makes his Entangles into barriers.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Maybe if it has a "spray" attachment' date=' it could be used like Spider-Man makes his Entangles into barriers.[/quote']

 

Sure, but my point was that it doesn't strike me as a natural capability of an unmodified "glue gun" type weapon or power.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Sure' date=' but my point was that it doesn't strike me as a natural capability of an unmodified "glue gun" type weapon or power.[/quote']

 

I don't see why not. Spider-man is the archetypal Entangle-using character, and that's what he has: wrist-mounted glue guns.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

I don't see why not. Spider-man is the archetypal Entangle-using character' date=' and that's what he has: wrist-mounted glue guns.[/quote']

 

Then where we differ is what we define as 'glue'. Spider silk is a bit more sophisticated a material than just glue. For a start it forms threads. All glue is going to do is form a heap, and in order to form a barrier it would have to be an extremely large heap.

[Dust Raven]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

A rope accross a doorway doesn't form any kind of barrier anybody can't get past in half a second unless it's strung back and forth several times and pretty well secured in place. An action that's going to take a lot of Extra Time' date=' so it's hardly a valid use for, or a natural part of the powers of a lasso, for example. As for mystic bonds, for example, again that's highly SFX dependent. It depends hugely on the nature of the spell and how it's visualised. I'm not sure how a 'glue gun' could [i']reliably[/i] form any kind of barrier which couldn't easily be passed, without an awful lot of time and effort or exactly the right circumstances.

I don't see how a 'glue gun' could even keep people from moving in the first place, so I don't see how forming a barrier is any more of a stretch.

 

 

 

 

There's nothing inappropriate to these SFX (except the turning to stone one) about an Entangle which can't form barriers. That's why the limitation exists. For my part, using Transform for such powers is somewhat against the spirit of the power, and runs contrary to the guideline that it shouldn't be used to simulate existing Powers. I'm going to suggest that you read the description of Entange again. I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to draw your attention to the fact that the actual description of the power strongly emphasises its restraint / paralysis effects and keeps the ability to form barriers very much secondary.

No rudeness taken. I completely agree that these powers should be read in detail and fully understood before being used.

 

I just would like to know how Grond can help littly granny out of a poison attack. If the poison is bought as an Entangle, all Grond has to do is walk up and pull it off of her. And how would Grond reverse the paralysis of an Atemi strike that impairs a target's nerual pathways to keep them from moving? Again, if the paralysis is bought with Entangle, he can. Hell, a VIPER agent can just shoot the Entangle and break it off, and I hardly see how that would be appropriate for poisons and martial arts Atemi paralysis strikes.

 

Mental paralysis I'll buy as an Entangle, for I rule that it can be ripped off and targeted by Mental Powers/Target's EGO.

 

I'm not saying in any way that your way of doing things is "wrong", but I am pointing out that it's your personal taste and not in any way a HERO System standard. You may almost never use Entangle for those effects but you don't seem to be typical in that respect. Official HERO System products provide many examples of Entangles which don't form barriers (two out of four of the examples given in the main rulebook, for starters). OTOH correct me if I'm wrong but I can't recall seeing a single example of a Transform used to paralyse in a HERO book, except in cases where the paralysis is the side-effect of an actual physical transformation, such as petrification.

You are right on all accounts. All I'm saying is that many of the published write ups are wrong. The just don't work as described. It's like buying an RKA to blind someone in my opinion. It just don't do that, but if you hit them in the eyes and you're using the disabling rules... I understand the spirit of why these were written up in these ways, but I think that spirit has been taken too far. There's nothing wrong with using Images or Change Environment for concealment, though Invisibility would seem obvious. I simply marvel why Entangle seems to be taken as the only Power than can be used to hold someone still... especially when we have Telekinesis, Change Environment, various Adjustment Powers and even Transform that all do the same thing. I might be going against published material, but just because it was published doesn't mean its the most appropriate way of doing things.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

I don't see how a 'glue gun' could even keep people from moving in the first place' date=' so I don't see how forming a barrier is any more of a stretch.[/quote']

 

Then why use it as an example?

 

 

No rudeness taken. I completely agree that these powers should be read in detail and fully understood before being used.

 

I just would like to know how Grond can help littly granny out of a poison attack. If the poison is bought as an Entangle, all Grond has to do is walk up and pull it off of her. And how would Grond reverse the paralysis of an Atemi strike that impairs a target's nerual pathways to keep them from moving? Again, if the paralysis is bought with Entangle, he can. Hell, a VIPER agent can just shoot the Entangle and break it off, and I hardly see how that would be appropriate for poisons and martial arts Atemi paralysis strikes.

 

Mental paralysis I'll buy as an Entangle, for I rule that it can be ripped off and targeted by Mental Powers/Target's EGO.

 

 

You are right on all accounts. All I'm saying is that many of the published write ups are wrong. The just don't work as described. It's like buying an RKA to blind someone in my opinion. It just don't do that, but if you hit them in the eyes and you're using the disabling rules... I understand the spirit of why these were written up in these ways, but I think that spirit has been taken too far. There's nothing wrong with using Images or Change Environment for concealment, though Invisibility would seem obvious. I simply marvel why Entangle seems to be taken as the only Power than can be used to hold someone still... especially when we have Telekinesis, Change Environment, various Adjustment Powers and even Transform that all do the same thing. I might be going against published material, but just because it was published doesn't mean its the most appropriate way of doing things.

 

I see your point here. I think Takes No Damage From Attacks should include an option where another character cannot damge the Entangle at all, not even by targeting it at a penalty to OCV. Personally this is how I generally interpret the situation anyway in such cases, based on special effects.

 

I still think there are plenty of valid uses for Entangles that can't form barriers though. And in many cases in which they can, they could only reasonably do so in doorways, passages or other situations where they have something convenient vertical surfaces to cling to, and the rules do not reflect that either.

 

I only just remembered it now, but a particular villain (actually a demon) that appeared in my Ninja HERO game had a cinematic "piledriver" attack (the campaign is not exactly 100% serious in tone). The character jumps high in the air and lands with his feet on the victim's shoulders. This is just a sort of "jumping move-through" and as such could do quite a lot of damage, but on anything other than hard ground it could also drive a victim into the ground, trapping him. That part was built as an Entangle, Cannot Form Barriers (among other limitations). Just wondering if you would have built it a different way.

[Sean Waters]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Random thoughts:

 

1. Many of us will have been playing the game that long that changes of name might be confusing. In any event, as to commenting on confusion, I'd imagine new players would be the best judges. After you've been playing for a while it becomes difficult to properly determine if a label is confusing because you are so used to using it.

 

2. Why use just one name? There's no reason to assume one name is best, and, indeed, if we were to use several names you could pick the one that best suited the power that you are building. Using multiple names for a power would also, IMO, remove some of the pre-judgement of what a power does.

 

ENTANGLE

aka Arrest, Immobilise, Impede, Restrain

 

3. If you were to rename the powers I'd be inclined to do it in a way that grouped related powers together. Using the 'Mental' pre-fix for ego attack, telepathy and mind control (etc...) has been suggested. You could then have

Attack: killing,

Attack: melee, and

Attack: ranged,

for example for Killing attacks, HtH attacks and EB. They'd all appear together in the listings which might make deciding exactly which one you wanted easier.

[zornwil]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

To TheRealLemming's point, one cool thing in SAS was they had a cross-reference where you could look up power names and find it in their book. It was more geared towards competing preexisting games though - it included many of the HERO-specific terms such as Elemental Control, which I thought was neat.

 

That would be helpful in HERO, particularly a GURPS and other systems' cross-reference.

[rjcurrie]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Random thoughts:

 

2. Why use just one name? There's no reason to assume one name is best, and, indeed, if we were to use several names you could pick the one that best suited the power that you are building. Using multiple names for a power would also, IMO, remove some of the pre-judgement of what a power does.

 

ENTANGLE

aka Arrest, Immobilise, Impede, Restrain

Can't say I care for the multiple name idea. I think that might be even more confusing. However, it did spark another idea. What about a one line summary that would describe the power's function.

 

<COMPUTER GEEK MODE>

For those of you familiar with UNIX or Linux man pages, think of the one line description that appears at the top of each command's man page.

</COMPUTER GEEK MODE>

 

For example:

 

ENTANGLE

Immobilize characters or create barriers.

[zornwil]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Can't say I care for the multiple name idea. I think that might be even more confusing. However, it did spark another idea. What about a one line summary that would describe the power's function.

 

<COMPUTER GEEK MODE>

For those of you familiar with UNIX or Linux man pages, think of the one line description that appears at the top of each command's man page.

</COMPUTER GEEK MODE>

 

For example:

 

ENTANGLE

Immobilize characters or create barriers.

That's a great idea in any case. Surprised it hasn't come up before.

[Dust Raven]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Then why use it as an example?

It's a common SFX used in the source material and in the published material. Binder of the Ultimates has a glue gun and it CAN form barriers.

 

In any case, if the villain or hero can stand there and soliloquy for a while and no one's allowed to attack him while he's ranting, then why not build your entangle-wall out of rope or other things. It's all part of simulating the genre (thought other genres might not allow for this).

 

 

 

 

I see your point here. I think Takes No Damage From Attacks should include an option where another character cannot damge the Entangle at all, not even by targeting it at a penalty to OCV. Personally this is how I generally interpret the situation anyway in such cases, based on special effects.

I think that would make Entangles far too Powerful. It's like making a Drain STUN & REC to keep a target under, then not allowing other characters to use Aid or Healing to bring him back up. He stays there FOREVER unless he can break out himself normally.

 

I still think there are plenty of valid uses for Entangles that can't form barriers though. And in many cases in which they can, they could only reasonably do so in doorways, passages or other situations where they have something convenient vertical surfaces to cling to, and the rules do not reflect that either.

I agree there are plenty of SFX for Entangle that can't form barriers; I'm just saying I think there are more SFX for Entangle where they can (including a glue gun and rope). Some might need something to lean against or hold on to (like a doorframe or between two parked cars) but that's okay. I don't think that's so much of a limitation, as a wall out in the middle of nowhere doesn't really stop anyone.

 

I only just remembered it now, but a particular villain (actually a demon) that appeared in my Ninja HERO game had a cinematic "piledriver" attack (the campaign is not exactly 100% serious in tone). The character jumps high in the air and lands with his feet on the victim's shoulders. This is just a sort of "jumping move-through" and as such could do quite a lot of damage, but on anything other than hard ground it could also drive a victim into the ground, trapping him. That part was built as an Entangle, Cannot Form Barriers (among other limitations). Just wondering if you would have built it a different way.

No, I would have written it up the same way. Neat effect and I might borrow it at a brick trick for a villain I'm creating.

[Dust Raven]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

2. Why use just one name? There's no reason to assume one name is best' date=' and, indeed, if we were to use several names you could pick the one that best suited the power that you are building. Using multiple names for a power would also, IMO, remove some of the pre-judgement of what a power does.[/quote']

Brilliant! There's even a precidence for this with Multipower slots. The "official" names are Fixed and Flexible slots, but we commonly use Ultra and Multi slots, and FREd even mentions these as alternate names.

[zornwil]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Brilliant! There's even a precidence for this with Multipower slots. The "official" names are Fixed and Flexible slots' date=' but we commonly use Ultra and Multi slots, and FREd even mentions these as alternate names.[/quote']

Are "ultra" and "multi" now gone???? I believe HERO Designer still puts a "u" or "m" in front, doesn't it?

[Silbeg]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Are "ultra" and "multi" now gone???? I believe HERO Designer still puts a "u" or "m" in front' date=' doesn't it?[/quote']

Well, that is probably better than putting an "f" or an "f" in from of them.. even better than "fi" or "fl"...

 

Can you imagine?

 

As I don't have 5ER (yet), nor do I have any materials in front of me... but how do published books deal with this issue?

[rjcurrie]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Are "ultra" and "multi" now gone???? I believe HERO Designer still puts a "u" or "m" in front' date=' doesn't it?[/quote']

In 5ER, it is still as Dust Raven says, the names "Fixed" and "Flexible" are used with "multi" and "ultra" given as well. The letters "m" and "u" are used in character write-ups and the Genre by Genre chapter contains the same sidebar found in most (if not all) Hero books with character sheets that explains the use of these letters.

 

Rod

[zornwil]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Okay, I thought he was saying the m and u were no longer referred to.

[Kristopher]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Regarding the word "energy" in Energy Blast...

 

Moving physical objects do damage because of their kinetic energy...

[proditor]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Regarding the word "energy" in Energy Blast...

 

Moving physical objects do damage because of their kinetic energy...

Yeah, but that's not what people think of when they consider what did the damage. You don't hear people say "The Kinetic energy of those bullets really tore that guy up!" You hear: "Damn, he got ripped to shreads by the bullets." Same applies to hitting someone with a thrown ball, slugging them with a bat...sure, the kinetic energy imparted does the damage, but no one thinks of things that way. It's X object inflicted the damage.

[Dust Raven]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Yeah' date=' but that's not what people think of when they consider what did the damage. You don't hear people say "The Kinetic energy of those bullets really tore that guy up!" You hear: "Damn, he got ripped to shreads by the bullets." Same applies to hitting someone with a thrown ball, slugging them with a bat...sure, the kinetic energy imparted does the damage, but no one thinks of things that way. It's X object inflicted the damage.[/quote']

That, that the rules specifiy a difference between Physical and Energy damage.

 

But I'm still okay with the name Energy Blast. I'd also be okay with Normal Attack - Ranged. I'm not too sure about the shorthand RNA though...

[proditor]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

That, that the rules specifiy a difference between Physical and Energy damage.

 

But I'm still okay with the name Energy Blast. I'd also be okay with Normal Attack - Ranged. I'm not too sure about the shorthand RNA though...

Oh I have no issue with the name, I kinda get a kick out of defining a thrown Billy Club as an EB actually. I'm just saying that just because it doesn't bug me doesn't mean it's intuitive.

[Sean Waters]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Of course we could look at it the other way round and say that 'physical' and 'energy' are SFX, and we shouldn't have PD and ED, just DEF at 2 points per point. Of course you can buy it to only work against physical attacks or energy attacks at a -1 limitation...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

Forming barriers or not, I still don't see what's wrong with the name Entangle. It isn't merely "hold a character immobile" because there are many ways to do that in HERO - Suppress/Drain/Dispel of movement powers, Change Environment, some kinds of Transform, doing enough damage to stun (daze) them, Force Wall, or a good old Grab. An Entangle is a specific kind of immobilization - one which (in its default form) creates a physical substance or force that has DEF and BODY and must be broken out of, and the physical substance/force hangs around until broken without additional END. A physical substance wrapped around a person - what better word for that than Entangle?

 

Dazed instead of Stunned is a great idea. Most players I know still say CON Stunned. Yes, I know it's not an official term, but it was made necessary by the use of easily confused similar terms.

 

Seduction is a perfectly fine and appropriate word for the skill it represents. It may be the influence of horny, woman-deprived gamer geeks to assume that "seduction" always refers to something sexual. It does not. "Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force."

 

And you can't call a ranged attack "Blast" because that might imply to some an explosion.

 

Kristopher is correct to point out that all damaging attacks are "energy" attacks. Bullets do damage by kinetic energy, fire does damage by heat energy, lightning does damage by electrical energy, etc. And yes, I know that we never say, "He was killed by the kinetic energy of a bullet." We say, "He was killed by a bullet." But by the same token, we never say, "He was killed by the electrical energy of a lightning bolt." We say, "He was killed by a lightning bolt."

 

The only terms I might change are those: Energy and Physical, both misleading and unscientific terms for what they're intended to represent in the game. As was said, all damage is energy. And all forms of energy are physical phenomena. Physical could be changed to Kinetic. I can't think of a term off hand that subsumes all non-kinetic forms of energy. Perhaps "Non-Kinetic" is the only accurate one, though it is a bit klunky.

 

There may be plenty of more accutare/appropriate words for various game elements, but, apart from Dazed, the benefit of changing them is too trivial to warrent the effort.

 

Aid -> Enhance (Aid sounds like you're helping a little old lady cross the street)

CON -> STUN (the amount of damage it takes to stun you)

STUN -> CON (the amount of damage you can take an remain CONscious)

BODY -> Hit Points

Growth -> Increase Size

Area Effect, Radius -> Area Effect, Hexagon

Area Effect, Cone -> Area Effect, Triangle

Speed -> Actions

Running -> Moving your legs really fast

Swinging -> Swinging, Baby, Yeah!

Armor -> Chainmail (because you shouldn't be allowed to build anything else with it, not leather armor, not plate armor, not armadillo hide, not toughness)

Dispel -> Turn Off

Champions -> Super HERO

Dark Champions -> Dark HERO

Steve Long -> Steven S. Long

Turakian Age -> Kalian Age

Takofanes -> Kal-Turak

Grond -> G'Ronnd

Foxbat -> Batfox

Doctor Destroyer -> Doctor Happykitty

 

I also don't get the SuCCoR/RoXXoR bit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: An EB by any other name...

 

We could change entangle to Delay. A bit. Sometimes.

 

Dr Happykitty? I like it! Lets make it official; YOU LISTENING STEVEN S. LONG?

 

Mayby whoever it was meant SuCCoR/RoXXoFF? Or possibly SoCCeR/ReFFerEE? Not that either of those would make much sense either. I can add my name to the list of luminaries who don't get it too, only I'd probably be making it a bit dimmer. What is the opposite of a luminary, anyway?

 

Oh, and Phil,

"Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force."

, what makes you think that wasn't sexual? I've got the security tapes, and it looked pretty steamy to me.