The Champions Do they suck?

[MitchellS]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

I think they could have published a set of example starting-level characters that had nothing to do with the iconic team of the setting, the team that it's "named for"!

 

The Champions, as they are, just don't cut it as iconic characters.

I agree completely. They could have just published 6 sample characters like Crusader, Starburst, etc.

[MitchellS]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

The Duck hat' date=' pure and simple.[/quote']

I just chalk that up to a poor picture. Some of the other pictures are not as bad of Nighthawk, and I don't think his headgear looks any stranger than Batman's, or Hawkman's, or even Wolverine's with the points.

[Kristopher]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Again, again, again...

 

Can you not sleep about night for fretting about how the CU has no 750 point superheroes?

 

Is the lack of an NPC hammer of god the reason you wake up screaming "THE PLAYERS AREN'T PLAYING THE GENRE RIGHT!" each and every night?

 

Does some Hero author come into your house every night and whisper "The CU has unbeatable supervillains" as he 'does his business' while you whimper and bite down on the blanket?

 

No?

 

Then GET OVER IT!

 

Wow.

 

I suggest yogo, or meditation...

 

He's not the only one who'd like to see that particular vacuum filed in the published setting. As it stands, the CU has holes. Filling those holes would add greater depth and life to the setting, and do nothing to make it less playable.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Wow.

 

I suggest yogo, or meditation...

 

He's not the only one who'd like to see that particular vacuum filed in the published setting. As it stands, the CU has holes. Filling those holes would add greater depth and life to the setting, and do nothing to make it less playable.

 

That's your opinion.

[Kristopher]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

That's your opinion.

 

Why do people always say that like it's news, or something?

 

Seriously, when did "That's your opinion." become the world's snapiest, wittiest, most uncounterable comeback line ever?

 

 

Now, I happen to think that it's a well founded opinion...

[Niles]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

I have no objection to Nighthawk's Science-Ninja-Hat.

 

Witchcraft is a little too fragile; counting knockback a 12d6 attack is going to pretty reliably KO her in one hit. (and her DCV is no great shakes either) That can't be too fun if you're using her as a PC.

 

My big problem is Ironclad, His background says that he voluntered for Military service seeking a Combat position, and latter sought out work in a Gladitorial arena; but his Disadvantages include a Total CvK.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Why do people always say that like it's news, or something?

 

Seriously, when did "That's your opinion." become the world's snapiest, wittiest, most uncounterable comeback line ever?

 

 

Now, I happen to think that it's a well founded opinion...

 

Last thursday.

 

 

As far as I am concerned, this topic is a dead end. The pro7000000000000point superheroes side is not willing to consider the other side, and so, it becomes a case of right from the first post.

[nexus]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

when did we get a dead horse beating emoticon and why did no one tell me?

[Kristopher]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Last thursday.

 

 

As far as I am concerned, this topic is a dead end. The pro7000000000000 point superheroes side is not willing to consider the other side, and so, it becomes a case of right from the first post.

 

Um...I'm not familiar with that..."smiley". It appears to be zombie heads eating a moose.

 

And I am not in favor of...what is that number...

 

Wow.

 

I am not in favor of 7 trillion point characters.

 

Personally, I find Doc D and his 4-digit ilk in the published CU villain horde to be...excessive. But since they've been published, that point level has been established, we're left with either a setting with a hole in it, or published heroes that stand a reasonable chance of at least stalemating the UberBads until the PCs gain several hundred points of experience. Of course, this assumes that one games with the CU as published, and does not tone down / eliminate some of those 4-digit, world-melting UberBads.

 

I've scaled the characters I've been posting lately to fit the point level that seems appropriate within the CU / these discussion boards. As long as everything balances out, I guess it's OK.

 

I don't have a problem with the Champions in isolation, really, although I find them rather uninspiring as characters, I guess. I just think that seeing them show up as Hunteds on villains that they don't stand a chance against is...not the kind of solid, engrossing worldbuilding that I know the DoJ team is capable of. See me sig line about suspension of disbelief.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Um...I'm not familiar with that..."smiley". It appears to be zombie heads eating a moose.

 

And I am not in favor of...what is that number...

 

Wow.

 

I am not in favor of 7 trillion point characters.

 

Personally, I find Doc D and his 4-digit ilk in the published CU villain horde to be...excessive. But since they've been published, that point level has been established, we're left with either a setting with a hole in it, or published heroes that stand a reasonable chance of at least stalemating the UberBads until the PCs gain several hundred points of experience. Of course, this assumes that one games with the CU as published, and does not tone down / eliminate some of those 4-digit, world-melting UberBads.

 

I've scaled the characters I've been posting lately to fit the point level that seems appropriate within the CU / these discussion boards. As long as everything balances out, I guess it's OK.

 

I don't have a problem with the Champions in isolation, really, although I find them rather uninspiring as characters, I guess. I just think that seeing them show up as Hunteds on villains that they don't stand a chance against is...not the kind of solid, engrossing worldbuilding that I know the DoJ team is capable of. See me sig line about suspension of disbelief.

 

1) That emoticon is the beating of a dead horse, and there was a thread about it's arrival over in NGD.

 

2) I'm not saying you're the problem. IIRC, you're just someone else who's come along since and thinks that 750pt heroes are a must.

 

In brief, the problem with having NPC heroes more powerful than starting PC's is that they are easy to misuse. They damage player fun at the "new, just starting out" level.

 

Also, there will always be something people will nag away at. "Fixing" this will just cause the nagging to focus on something else.

 

4th Edition HAD NPC heroes that could punk the top end villains. People didn't like them. There was bitching. There was little fun. There was overshadowing. It was not good. We do not want to go back to those days. We do not!

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

There are, as far as I'm concerned, 3 problems with the Champions.

 

1: Poor character design. As has been said, Witchcraft will be ko'ed on average by a 12D6 attack. That's a major liability. Characters don't have to be munchkined-out, but they should be solidly built.

 

2: Trying to fulfill 2 roles. Whether you think we need thousand-point heroes or not, the Champions are written as though they are that team. They're hunted by like every nasty villain. As such, they fail at both of their roles. They're bad character designs, because a 350 point character shouldn't be hunted by Dr Destroyer, so they're a bad example to beginning players. They're also crappy iconic characters, because they don't have any of the tools necessary to be the heroes the game assumes they are.

 

Now, you can say that "oh, the heroes should fill that role" or whatever. It doesn't matter. The Champs are written as though they are that cosmic team, and they're not.

 

3: Too generic. They're very generic (just like archetypes normally are), but they're supposed to be important. Where are the rogues galleries? Where are the NPCs? There's nothing at all to make them stand out as characters.

[Zeropoint]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

I kind of like having the heroes of the game world be weaker than the big bads (although the disparity between the Champions and Dr. Destroyer may be a little too much).

 

It means that when the big bads threaten the world, a large number of heroes must band together and stand united against the enemy. That seems more heroic than having your local 1,500 point hero teleport in and take our Dr. D in a turn.

 

Zeropoint

[MitchellS]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

In brief' date=' the problem with having NPC heroes more powerful than starting PC's is that they are easy to misuse. They damage player fun at the "new, just starting out" level.[/quote']

So it's more fun for the PCs to just know there are more powerful heroes out there but never see or learn about them?

 

Also, there will always be something people will nag away at. "Fixing" this will just cause the nagging to focus on something else.

The only person who seems to be nagging in this thread is you. You're the only one who came in with guns blazing. You're the only one who's over-emphasizing everyone's point to make your dramatic statements.

 

4th Edition HAD NPC heroes that could punk the top end villains. People didn't like them. There was bitching. There was little fun. There was overshadowing. It was not good. We do not want to go back to those days. We do not!

Which people didn't like them? Which people were bitching? Which people were not having fun? Change the statements to "I" instead of "people" and you would be correct, but you cannot hope to speak for everyone when your opinion seems to be contrary to almost everyone else who has ever posted on the subject.

 

What I want is to see the other personalities of the Champions Universe. There's a reason why people buy both Superman and Batman comic books. The fact that I want to read about Superman doesn't mean that I will use him in my game. I just want the information. I want to build the continuity of the CU and takes those names off a pdf list and give them personality and life. I like information, story, adventure, characters, etc. Even if I never use them. Some things you buy just because it's fun to read.

 

And yes, I will say in all honesty that I don't like the idea that such a weak team like the Champions can be considered the "world's greatest heroes." It's like the Teen Titans being honored as the best while you have JLA and JSA sitting around. Each team is going to save the world and have its share of adventures but when the crap really hits the fan the President is not going to call the Teen Titans. He's going to call the Justice League.

[MitchellS]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

I also want to add that I don't really care if these other supers in the CU are 300 or 2,000 point characters. I just want to see the characters. I want to see the CU's Avengers [sentinels] and JLA/JSA [Justice Squadron]. I expect these groups to be a mixture of 300 point range characters all the way to 1000 point characters, just as the Avengers were with characters like Hawkeye and Mockingbird fighting along side Thor and Ironman.

 

Also, I don't always consider point totals to be a basis of a powerful character. Batman is an expensive character build but Wonder Woman could sneeze and knock him over. Mr. Fantastic is not more powerful than the Human Torch but probably costs 3 times more to build. Don't get hung up on point totals. Get hung up on power levels.

[starblaze]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

IMO, the Champions shouldn't be used as a "generic placeholder" team, constantly shown in situations they have no business surviving. As they are, they're too weak to handle the situations they're often depicted in, or to hunt some of the people they're supposedly hunting. That's just objective analysis of the numbers. Even if you give them all the heroic authorial fiat in the world, the odds will catch up with them, and soon -- anything else would be transparently hokey.

 

Solution one would be to make the Champions into the world-class team the background info and general references make them out to be. Add Kinetic as a full-time member, and add whatever number of points to each member as needed to round them out.

 

Solution two would be to breathe a little more life into the CU and actually give us writeups on all the other hero teams and higher-powered heroes that are mentioned but left in limbo. The Defenders of Justice, the Sentinels, etc.

 

Digital Hero has provided write-ups of both the Fabulous Five and the Sentinals. They are not neccessarily high powered characters but they are rather interesting. They also have the Millenium City 8.

[Koshka]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

My big problem is Ironclad, His background says that he voluntered for Military service seeking a Combat position, and latter sought out work in a Gladitorial arena; but his Disadvantages include a Total CvK.

 

I always read it as Ironclad's experiences turning him off killing, and his player taking advantage of the move to Earth to ask the GM about trading in his Subject To Orders for a CvK.

 

Just me, though.

[Susano]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

I must be the only person who doesn't really care about the Champions and how many points they are built on. If I ever run a superhero universe again, I am not going to use the official CU (mainly because I have no liking for the official timeline), and I am not going to use the Champions. So who cares about things like point totals? It's my game, so I'm going to build (or rebuild from published sources) the heroes and villains I want and need, and not worry about published point totals. Why such a slavish devotion to the published product line's continuity anyway? Isn't the whole idea of HERO to build what you want? Treat it like a salad bar, take a little of this, a little of that, and mix it all together.

[MitchellS]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Isn't the whole idea of HERO to build what you want? Treat it like a salad bar' date=' take a little of this, a little of that, and mix it all together.[/quote']

Maybe some of us actually like playing in a universe with continuity. What's the whole idea of having published universes at all if not to give us an established and consistent place to game? Having established universes are there to save people time. Not everyone has unlimited hours to create things, and not everyone is creative. Should the time-barren fans expect less consistency just because they're not creating it themselves?

 

I see the CU as a comic book world. Would you want to spend your whole life reading a single Spider-man comic each month and constantly seeing ads for The Avengers, and The Fantastic Four, and The Hulk, and realizing you'll never be able to experience those comics?

 

A gaming universe should be more than just game mechanics and crunch. It should also supply wonder, enjoyment, encouragement, and fantasy. If all I want is game mechanics and crunch then you're right, I don't need to care about the Champions power levels any more than I need to understand how Spider-man can beat up Firelord.

[Niles]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

I always read it as Ironclad's experiences turning him off killing, and his player taking advantage of the move to Earth to ask the GM about trading in his Subject To Orders for a CvK.

 

Just me, though.

I agree, that makes the most sense but wouldn't such a radical epiphany be worth making explicit in his background? Also imho with that explination his CvK makes more sense strong than total.

[Kristopher]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Digital Hero has provided write-ups of both the Fabulous Five and the Sentinals. They are not neccessarily high powered characters but they are rather interesting. They also have the Millenium City 8.

 

Not being a subscriber to DH, I did not know that.

 

Call me a throwback, but I don't consider appearing in a digital magazine to count as published. I would barely count them if they'd appeared in a regular print magazine.

[MitchellS]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Not being a subscriber to DH, I did not know that.

 

Call me a throwback, but I don't consider appearing in a digital magazine to count as published. I would barely count them if they'd appeared in a regular print magazine.

Technically the Sentinels haven't been published in Digital Hero yet. Darren Watts is still writing historical team characters and I believe it will many months before we ever see a write up for the current Sentinels, not including the pre-Sentinels write up of Diamond who was written up in his Fabulous Five incarnation.

[CBikle]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Both the 4th and 5th ed. Champions were designed as exhibition characters, intended more as guidelines and learning tools for GMs and players as to what a starting character should look like and to illustrate how certain math heavy powers like Multiform and Duplication (this was more relevant to 4th ed. characters) are calculated. None of the characters were really designed as arena-style combat characters (although Ironclad's 12d6 attack w/ Find Weakness is pretty nasty for a starting character).

[Kristopher]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

There seems to be an ongoing false dichotomy underlying many of the discussions on character construction, with only "interesting characters" and "munched out minmaxed characters" as choices when building a character. The other side in the debate refers to them as "lame poorly-built characters" and "well-built characters".

 

Personally, I prefer to a solid, rock-steady character who isn't a one-trick pony or full of combat flaws, but who also isn't taking advantage of every quirk in the HERO system to squeeze in everything near the campaign limits.

 

In other words, there's a spectrum here, not a dichotomy.

 

Also, "flawed" AND "minmaxed" characters can both be made a lot better by good background, and by a good player who is more interested in having a good/interesting time with the rest of the players.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

As far as I am concerned' date=' this topic is a dead end. The pro7000000000000point superheroes side is not willing to consider the other side, and so, it becomes a case of right from the first post.[/quote']A little overboard with the zeroes, but I think this makes you the first to use the dead horse in context.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Again, again, again...

 

Can you not sleep about night for fretting about how the CU has no 750 point superheroes?

 

Is the lack of an NPC hammer of god the reason you wake up screaming "THE PLAYERS AREN'T PLAYING THE GENRE RIGHT!" each and every night?

 

Does some Hero author come into your house every night and whisper "The CU has unbeatable supervillains" as he 'does his business' while you whimper and bite down on the blanket?

 

No?

 

Then GET OVER IT!

 

Obviously, you still haven't actually pondered out what my problem with the setting is.

 

The absence of a canon reason why the villains haven't won is a serious hole in the setting. Not only that, but it makes it seem like only villains ever actually get more experienced and powerful, not heroes.

 

I will "get over it" when the problem has been resolved, no sooner. If you have any objection, feel free to explain how the setting is *not* faulty, in a way that does not require simultaneously invoking and denying genre convention.