The Champions Do they suck?

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

That's your opinion.

 

For it to be an "opinion," it has to be a purely subjective matter unsubject to any kind of testing.

 

The absence of any real presence of powerful and experienced heroes, and the logical and setting faults it produces, is something quite easily tested. All you have to do is ask little questions like "How exactly was Takofanes stopped??"

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

1) That emoticon is the beating of a dead horse, and there was a thread about it's arrival over in NGD.

 

2) I'm not saying you're the problem. IIRC, you're just someone else who's come along since and thinks that 750pt heroes are a must.

 

In brief, the problem with having NPC heroes more powerful than starting PC's is that they are easy to misuse. They damage player fun at the "new, just starting out" level.

 

Also, there will always be something people will nag away at. "Fixing" this will just cause the nagging to focus on something else.

 

4th Edition HAD NPC heroes that could punk the top end villains. People didn't like them. There was bitching. There was little fun. There was overshadowing. It was not good. We do not want to go back to those days. We do not!

 

Yes, we do. Or rather, we would like to go *forward*: to the days where the setting actually makes sense.

 

If you are worried about your players being overshadowed, than *make them the top level heroes.* There need be no conflict here. We just all have to acknowledge that 350 != enough power/skill/experience/etc to meaningfully oppose the upper tiers of villains, and that it, likewise, does not represent the upper tiers of heroes.

[OddHat]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

For it to be an "opinion," it has to be a purely subjective matter unsubject to any kind of testing.

 

The absence of any real presence of powerful and experienced heroes, and the logical and setting faults it produces, is something quite easily tested. All you have to do is ask little questions like "How exactly was Takofanes stopped??"

 

Bathroom break. 7000 years with no fiber. There's a reason he invented the floating throne.

 

When his problems pass, someone will have to deal with the mess.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

I kind of like having the heroes of the game world be weaker than the big bads (although the disparity between the Champions and Dr. Destroyer may be a little too much).

 

It means that when the big bads threaten the world, a large number of heroes must band together and stand united against the enemy. That seems more heroic than having your local 1,500 point hero teleport in and take our Dr. D in a turn.

 

Zeropoint

 

Well, yeah.

 

The problem is, there *is no* viable gathering of heroes that could beat the top tier megavillains right now. Its not enough to have tons of heroes, they need to be of a higher calibre as well.

 

Besides, I don't know about anyone else, but I think the likes of Menton and Gravitar, should not require a crossover event to defeat.

[nexus]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Yes, we do. Or rather, we would like to go *forward*: to the days where the setting actually makes sense.

 

If you are worried about your players being overshadowed, than *make them the top level heroes.* There need be no conflict here. We just all have to acknowledge that 350 != enough power/skill/experience/etc to meaningfully oppose the upper tiers of villains, and that it, likewise, does not represent the upper tiers of heroes.

 

Or if you're not comfortable with or don't like huge point totals, just tone down the big guns to level that is more suitable to what you want to play with. Either option works just fine.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

I must be the only person who doesn't really care about the Champions and how many points they are built on. If I ever run a superhero universe again' date=' I am not going to use the official CU (mainly because I have no liking for the official timeline), and I am not going to use the Champions. So who cares about things like point totals? It's my game, so I'm going to build (or rebuild from published sources) the heroes and villains I want and need, and not worry about published point totals. Why such a slavish devotion to the published product line's continuity anyway? Isn't the whole idea of HERO to build what you want? Treat it like a salad bar, take a little of this, a little of that, and mix it all together.[/quote']

 

To use your salad bar metaphor: because when I visit this salad bar, I want their to be more than just lettuce for the taking. As it currently stands, while a person is free to take anything they want from the canon material and discard the rest, they have to create *all* their upper end heroic NPCs from scratch.

 

P.S.: Well, there's Dr Ka and Robert Caliburn, but neither of them is really much of a generally useful superhero.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Or if you're not comfortable with or don't like huge point totals' date=' just tone down the big guns to level that is more suitable to what you want to play with. Either option works just fine.[/quote']

 

But neither way magically makes it a bad thing for Hero to establish all levels of characters in the Champions Universe. After all, if you don't want any high powered heroes *or* villains in your setting, your always free to ignore them. Sure, this can reach a point where you need to rebuild large elements of the setting, but if you are actually removing ( as opposed to just ignoring as "not relevant for this campaign" ) that many characters, your diverging from a normal comic book world anyway.

[nexus]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

But neither way magically makes it a bad thing for Hero to establish all levels of characters in the Champions Universe. After all' date=' if you don't want any high powered heroes *or* villains in your setting, your always free to ignore them. Sure, this can reach a point where you need to rebuild large elements of the setting, but if you are actually removing ( as opposed to just ignoring as "not relevant for this campaign" ) that many characters, your diverging from a normal comic book world anyway.[/quote']

 

I don't think its a big divergence from a normal comic book world as I don't think there really is such a thing. If the most powerful character in your world is 500 points, for example and has a 13d6 attack, then a 350 point character with a 10d6 is a noteworthy character. In my Redwood game, a 350 point character is godawful, for example.

 

Personally, the existence or lack thereof of extremely powerful characters doesn't affect me and thus, I don't care if the exist as a list of names or book of characters so I'm not going to begrudge other people their fun.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

If you're designing your own setting, or re-writing half the Champions Universe, then you really don't have an argument on this thread. "See, in my universe, the Champions don't suck, 'cause I made them a whole lot tougher, and I rewrote their origins, and I put Seeker back in." Well, duh. Of course they don't suck now.

 

The real question is, do the Champions suck as they exist in the defined universe? And they do, given the role they are to fill. They can't fight Dr Destroyer. The only thing that will even keep them in the fight is GM fiat. And, c'mon guys, even if 100 heroes of the Champions' level showed up to fight Dr Destroyer, he'd still be able to kill them all. The setting needs more powerful heroes, whether those will be the PCs or not.

[nexus]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

The real question is, do the Champions suck as they exist in the defined universe? And they do, given the role they are to fill. They can't fight Dr Destroyer. The only thing that will even keep them in the fight is GM fiat. And, c'mon guys, even if 100 heroes of the Champions' level showed up to fight Dr Destroyer, he'd still be able to kill them all. The setting needs more powerful heroes, whether those will be the PCs or not.

 

That would be one hell of a fight to run...

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

I don't think its a big divergence from a normal comic book world as I don't think there really is such a thing. If the most powerful character in your world is 500 points, for example and has a 13d6 attack, then a 350 point character with a 10d6 is a noteworthy character. In my Redwood game, a 350 point character is godawful, for example.

 

Personally, the existence or lack thereof of extremely powerful characters doesn't affect me and thus, I don't care if the exist as a list of names or book of characters so I'm not going to begrudge other people their fun.

 

Firstly, when I say "normal comic book world," I am referring basically to the Marvel and DC universes. If there is any reason why those two shouldn't be the baseline benchmark, I'm all ears.

 

Secondly, your assuming that all things are relative and scalable. Thats only true with regard to each other. There is also relative to non-superhuman benchmarks, ranging from lift weights to nuke damage. While a STR 40 and STR 50 super and a STR 90 and STR 100 super have the same difference in amount of damage dice relative to each other, the former two have vastly different ability to damage their surroundings than the latter. Likewise, same difference in defense between PD 5r and PD 10r, and PD 20r and PD 25r. . .but only in the former case is the lesser of the two readily injurable by small arms fire.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

That would be one hell of a fight to run...

 

Yeah. Hell, 100 would probably be less effective than some smaller number, simple because with that many, there's no way all of them will be able to fight effectively.

[Bengal]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

No, no, no, yes, yes, and I'm not really sure.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Yes, we do. Or rather, we would like to go *forward*: to the days where the setting actually makes sense.

 

If you are worried about your players being overshadowed, than *make them the top level heroes.* There need be no conflict here. We just all have to acknowledge that 350 != enough power/skill/experience/etc to meaningfully oppose the upper tiers of villains, and that it, likewise, does not represent the upper tiers of heroes.

 

My players are unlikely to be overshadowed.

 

350 points is a heck of a lot. For an NPC, not so much, because they don't worry about the costs of things, but instead about being easy to read off the sheet (and being completist), but 350 points for a PC can easily be a fairly high end superhero.

 

Actually, it IS.

 

Either that, or it's the work of an anti-munchkin (these strange creatures spend points on things that have no purpose, making even the average gamer look at their characters and go "how is it you suck at EVERYTHING?").

 

You evaluate PC's at a full tier below their power value/you value comic book heroes a full tier higher. It's annoying.

 

Your POV is NOT something that has to be ackknowledged. It is something that needs to be scourged from the minds of all right thinking individuals. (note: hyperbole).

 

In any event, the issue is as follows:

 

You think a) without XYZpt heroes, the CU is internally inconsistent AND

this is a serious problem AND

c) this is more important than not having there be ready made Sources Of Player Inferiority.

 

Oh, and d) It's possible to build NPCs that would actually have a realistic shot at the monstrosities the current CU has.

 

 

Here's how I would "solve the problem" if I actually thought that this was something that needed to be addressed: Create weaker versions of the big bad overpowering villains.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

For it to be an "opinion," it has to be a purely subjective matter unsubject to any kind of testing.

 

The absence of any real presence of powerful and experienced heroes, and the logical and setting faults it produces, is something quite easily tested. All you have to do is ask little questions like "How exactly was Takofanes stopped??"

 

Isn't the "Canon" answer "He wasn't, he just thought he might be"?

[nexus]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Lets not turn this thread into a another endless Power Level of the Champions Universe debate. They never go anywhere.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Hmm.. let's see what else is on [channel surfs] ...

 

Who's up for a game of Diplomacy?

[Kristopher]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Diplomacy? In an online discussion? Man, you're a real dreamer, aren't you?

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Diplomacy? In an online discussion? Man' date=' you're a real dreamer, aren't you? [/quote']*hmph* I prefer to think of myself as a 'visionary'.

 

[zornwil]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

To answer the original question, not into the Champions, they seem bland. Then again, I've always had my own super-setting so haven't sought out the CU.

[Southern Cross]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

Actually,I'm with Champsguy.The Champions are not well built (and have the same number of points as the PC's),but are expected to be Hunted by the world's worst villains.

What should have been done was build them at various point levels,so that GM's could choose which version to use in their campaigns.

And yes,I actually preferred the 4th Edition versions.

[Agent X]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

I agree. If you want to judge how well made the Champions are to fulfill the role that they are stated to fill, they fail miserably.

 

And that is potentially an unavoidable issue for a play group. In my group we have two campaigns running in the same universe and a third one is going to start soon (We have games set in Millennium City, Freedom City, and soon we will have one in San Angelo). For ease of play, we have decided to be very sparing in rewriting the Champions Universe (and the Freedom City Universe or the San Angelo setting) so that the GMs can feel comfortable in using any of the resources without producing contradictions with another GM's interpretation.

 

That means I, Millennium City GM, have to deal with the fact that Viper is very present in Millennium City and that Viper is a big part of the CU, even though I'm not that keen on the likelihood of an organization like Viper. I also have to deal with the Champions and I have seen them in play as the Player Characters have interacted with them. The idea that the Champions are hunted by the Crowns of Krim and Mechanon makes me wonder how they have survived. In my game things are getting rough for the poor Champions. I believe Nighthawk is hunted by Mechassassin. How the heck is he supposed to survive Mechassassin?

 

The Champions are hunting Eurostar. What is going to happen to them when they catch up to Eurostar?

[Southern Cross]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

They all get killed or seriously wounded?

[TheEmerged]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

RE: The point argument. Speaking for myself and the campaign I'm running, I'd like to see some more heroic types statted out for a more selfish reason: I'm running a villain campaign and need more schmucks to throw against the PC's

 

As to the "proper" point level? Depends on what you want to play. I find 350 point characters a little lacking relative to the standards in The Ultimate Vehicle. So I've been quite generous in the experience I've handed out; the players started at 400 pts and are closing in on 600. Of course my Dr. Destroyer is built off more than 2000 pts -- before perks...

 

For either side to mock the other is poor form, and speaks poorly of the mockers. Just because I want supers that stand a chance against the weaponry a squad of marines carries doesn't mean Witchcraft's pathetic defenses are wrong in a lower-powered campaign -- it just means it's off kilter for Witchcraft (as part of the Champions) to be hunting Viperia. (Speaking as the guy who ran the encounter in the other thread, I don't consider surviving all of a turn to be all that hot).

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Champions Do they suck?

 

My players are unlikely to be overshadowed.

 

350 points is a heck of a lot. For an NPC, not so much, because they don't worry about the costs of things, but instead about being easy to read off the sheet (and being completist), but 350 points for a PC can easily be a fairly high end superhero.

 

Actually, it IS.

 

Either that, or it's the work of an anti-munchkin (these strange creatures spend points on things that have no purpose, making even the average gamer look at their characters and go "how is it you suck at EVERYTHING?").

 

You evaluate PC's at a full tier below their power value/you value comic book heroes a full tier higher. It's annoying.

 

Your POV is NOT something that has to be ackknowledged. It is something that needs to be scourged from the minds of all right thinking individuals. (note: hyperbole).

 

In any event, the issue is as follows:

 

You think a) without XYZpt heroes, the CU is internally inconsistent AND

this is a serious problem AND

c) this is more important than not having there be ready made Sources Of Player Inferiority.

 

Oh, and d) It's possible to build NPCs that would actually have a realistic shot at the monstrosities the current CU has.

 

 

Here's how I would "solve the problem" if I actually thought that this was something that needed to be addressed: Create weaker versions of the big bad overpowering villains.

 

I have said it before, I will say it again:

 

If the players are so neurotically underconfident that they cannot tolerate the very thought that there might be some hero out their bigger and more powerful than them, than they are not players I would want in a campaign of mine, as said players are probably going to be a constant source of trouble whenever things do not go their way.