Initiative...

[RDU Neil]

Re: Initiative...

 

Perhaps I should clarify. I do the SPD+6 roll to determine how many actions they get' date=' then I let the players act in order of their DEX.[/quote']

 

Huh... that's kinda cool. Hadn't thought of that. Lemme know how it turns out. Could be interesting.

 

Thanks

[RDU Neil]

Re: Initiative...

 

Every time I've seen the system, that's a risk. It's funny how players tend to want it to be "more random" until the randomness acts against them instead of for them.

 

One tweak I've seen to address this is to add 1 to the number the character needs to roll for each missed roll. So, if you have a 6 SPD, and you roll nothing but 12's, you'll still act every 6th time, so even in a worst case scenario, you'll get to act eventually.

 

I can see this getting very annoying in a genre where speeds cap out at 4, but you can always tweak it (eg. use a d4 or a d6) to reduce the number of "Again no one moves!" phases.

 

For myself, the SPD chart works. If I were going to change it, I'd probably go the playing card route.

 

And if this is the case... this is actually moving AWAY from what I wanted to achieve with my initiative system. I want every character to have at least one action... not the chance of zero actions. The randmoness comes with some variation on who goes first (and who gets a second action). No, I would not adapt a system that provided for the chance for someone to have zero actions.

[Constantine]

Re: Initiative...

 

In a campaign I'm playing in, we've completely eliminated speed. There are 3 phases every turn, where everyone gets to act, then a post-12. In addition, initiative is decided at the beginning of the fight, rollling 1d6/5 pts. of dex. If you want to set up a combat sheet ahead of time, ask all the players to pre-roll some initiatives the session before...

[MacBean]

Re: Initiative...

 

I had an initiative method I always wanted to try. Its pretty much the Shadowrun system.

 

Roll 1d6 per point of speed. You get an action at your total, your total -10, your total -20, etc.

 

so, 2 SPD would usually go once, occasionally twice

5 SPD (the most common in the games I've played) goes on the average twice

 

 

I had also considered adding the average of DEX and INT to the roll. If that's done, the number to subtract should be higher, perhaps 15.

 

[edit] adding examples to talk myself through it further.

 

normal human, 10 dex, 10 int, 2 spd

10+2d6 averages 17, 2 actions 17 and 2

 

talented normal, 14 dex, 12 int, 3 spd

13+3d6 averages 23, 2 actions 23 and 8

 

Argent (agent character of mine) 23 dex, 15 int, 5 spd

19+5d6 averages 36, 3 actions 36, 21, and 6.

 

speedster 30 dex, 13 int, 8 spd

21+8d6 averages 49, 4 actions 49, 34, 19, 4

 

I don't know, maybe 10 would work after all.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Initiative...

 

I had an initiative method I always wanted to try. Its pretty much the Shadowrun system.

 

Roll 1d6 per point of speed. You get an action at your total, your total -10, your total -20, etc.

 

so, 2 SPD would usually go once, occasionally twice

5 SPD (the most common in the games I've played) goes on the average twice

 

 

I had also considered adding the average of DEX and INT to the roll. If that's done, the number to subtract should be higher, perhaps 15.

 

[edit] adding examples to talk myself through it further.

 

normal human, 10 dex, 10 int, 2 spd

10+2d6 averages 17, 2 actions 17 and 2

 

talented normal, 14 dex, 12 int, 3 spd

13+3d6 averages 23, 2 actions 23 and 8

 

Argent (agent character of mine) 23 dex, 15 int, 5 spd

19+5d6 averages 36, 3 actions 36, 21, and 6.

 

speedster 30 dex, 13 int, 8 spd

21+8d6 averages 49, 4 actions 49, 34, 19, 4

 

I don't know, maybe 10 would work after all.

 

 

Instead of doing all that, simply make SPD a secondary characteristic between Dex and Int instead of just Dex.

 

Instead of 1+(Dex/10) make SPD, 1+([Dex + Int]/20)

 

Your system sounds very similar to Shadow Run (duh, you said that ), which is my second favorite initiative/action system.

 

There are some flaws though.

 

A person who pays for a Spd of 5 can only go a maximum of 4 times(on 30, 20, 10 and 0), even if they roll the maximum on the dice. Veteran Hero players would be none-too-happy about that. A character with a Speed of 12 can only go a maximum of 8 times (72, 62, 52, 42, 32, 22, 12 and 2).

 

The difference between a 2 and 3 SPD isn't that great. A person with a SPD 2 can go twice (12 and 2) and a person with a SPD 3 can still only go twice (18 and 8)

 

Still, this is the best alternate SPD system I've seen suggested on these boards.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Initiative...

 

Hmmm...on second thought, as you mentioned above; a secondary Reaction stat based on the average of DEX + INT would put those dice closer in line to the SPD it needs to hit....

 

Things that make you go hmmm....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Initiative...

 

To be the voice of unreason (not like me at all) can I just say that:

 

1. I like the speed chart and the current initiative system.

 

2. I don't feel that having +1 speed is any more useful really than having +2d6 on your EB or +5pd/+5ed. Fast characters don't always win the fights.

 

3. If you are changing how you use speed, you should change how much it costs.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Initiative...

 

Wouldn't this make it so that having a higher SPD made you less likely to go first?

 

Yes it would, although high speed characters are almost certainly high DEX characters too, so it shouldn't prove to be a problem in practice and it means if you are acting above your normal speed you take more of a DEX penalty than if you act below it: it is a trade off which I find quite attractive. if you don't, ignore the bit about the SPD penalty to your DEX.

[etherio]

Re: Initiative...

 

Quick question... Etherio? If I understand your system correctly... it might be possible for a character to have a 6 SPD and through bad luck' date=' roll over a 6 many times in a row on a d12... and thus NEVER get to act? That seems a bit TOO random for me... or am I missing something?[/quote']

 

Well...yes, theoretically. However, despite the fact that runs of bad luck on the dice do occur, they don't result in someone never getting a turn. The statistical likelihood of that is too low for it to become anything to worry about as a systematic problem. Also, don't forget that strings of good luck also occur and tend to balance out in the long run. Sometimes it means that your 4 or 5 SPD brick gets to act several times in a row, and it's cool. You don't always have it predicted that "ok, ok...Speedy is gonna get the glory, 'cause he gets to act on Segment 10 and nobody else does." HERO is the best game there is, don't get me wrong, but that kind of stuff has been my major irritation with it in the 20 years that I've been a die-hard fan.

 

With our house rule, characters who get lucky and get a lot of turns in a row use up their END fast, and they don't recover Stun unless they pace themselves and spend a phase here or there on a Recovery. This is because all of the "Post-Segment 12" type of stuff only occurs when a character rolls a 12. This acts as a sort of "consolation prize" for characters who didn't get a turn, but did get a recovery. For these reasons, players who act seldomly early in a battle often dominate its conclusion.

 

All I can suggest is that you try it out. I've seen other alternate systems that make sense from a rational standpoint, and some that may appeal to the latent game designer in each of us, but I like this one best because it just injects a little fun random variation into the flow of combat without changing the relative usefulness of SPD scores.

 

Here's an example of a scenario that just doesn't happen with the SPD chart, but does with our house rule:

 

Mystery Man is fighting the behemoth Bulk...Bulk throws a Haymaker on this segment. It'll land, of course, at the end of next segment. MM wonders if he's going to get a phase next segment...if he does, he'll slip acrobatically around Bulk and try to Choke Hold him while Bulk's blow crashes into the pavement where he was standing...if he doesn't get a phase, he just might get splattered. The enjoyment of the suspense of that moment for everybody in the game is something the SPD Chart just does not provide. Bulk and MM both know how the timing of how their phases interact when the chart is used. Typically, characters can only even pull that kind of maneuver on an opponent whose SPD is compatible with his in a way in which he can exploit the order of their phases.

 

Here's an example of a scenario that does happen with the SPD Chart:

 

Dexy Guy has a higher Dex than his opponents have, and has his next phase on the same segment they do. He holds his action until after his opponents act, then charges up to face 2 opponents and does a Sweep Maneuver on them, lowering his DCV by 1/2 in exchange for the ability to strike both of them. However, he's a smart cookie...he knows his full DCV will be returned before he's vulnerable to an attack, because he knows that they won't get a phase until after he does. After that phase, the battle turns into a ridiculous cold war of phase-saving and action holding.

 

Another irritating bit of metagaming that the SPD Chart encourages (and one I shamefully perpetrated myself as a player years ago):

 

Bilbo the Gelfling (SPD 4) faces an armed opponent with a SPD 3. Bilbo's not quite a tough guy, and can't risk getting wounded, so he just follows a pattern...Phase 3, 6, and 12 - hold his action to dodge with levels on DCV...Phase 9 - all out attack, haymaker, whatever it takes and nevermind DCV penalties, 'cause they won't come into play. Again, a battle of complicated strategic holding of phases and the like is the inevitable result.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Initiative...

 

To be the voice of unreason (not like me at all) can I just say that:

 

1. I like the speed chart and the current initiative system.

.

 

Absofragginlutely!

[zornwil]

Re: Initiative...

 

Since we're repeating solutions, personally, I consider all actions in a Segment simultaneous "more or less". All attacks DO go off, even if the victim of an attack is doomed, he gets his shot in. Here's where it gets tricky; a heroic (saving an innocent) or defensive action I allow given a DEX roll (and often a DEX-vs-DEX especially if it's a critical/dramatic thing). There are exceptions for logical circumstances; someone performing a move-through against a target where they can't reach the target until the end of the Segment clearly has a time disadvantage.

 

That's about how I do it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Initiative...

 

Slightly off topic...

 

Does anyone remember the old West End Games version of the Star Wars RPG?

 

The system was D6 based like HERO but instead of characteristic points you had # of dice. An average joe might have 1d6 DEX but a Pilot might have 5d6. Default combat order was reversed as well. Lowest DEX characters went first (declared actions) and then higher DEX characters could attempt to go first with a rolloff (sounds a lot like DEX vs. DEX).

 

This seems like it would totally screw up the 'abort' system of HERO but could certainly make things interresting.

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Initiative...

 

Since we're repeating solutions, personally, I consider all actions in a Segment simultaneous "more or less". All attacks DO go off, even if the victim of an attack is doomed, he gets his shot in. Here's where it gets tricky; a heroic (saving an innocent) or defensive action I allow given a DEX roll (and often a DEX-vs-DEX especially if it's a critical/dramatic thing). There are exceptions for logical circumstances; someone performing a move-through against a target where they can't reach the target until the end of the Segment clearly has a time disadvantage.

 

That's about how I do it.

 

I think we often forget how fast HERO combat is, in game, especially in superhero games, where characters are getting an action every two seconds. I can't think of any other games where you can move quite that quickly, and it can be easy to forget because the actual practice of combat in reality tends to be quite slow. Even massive combats rarely take more than a minute of game time.

 

In the light of this, I quite like Zorwil's approach. Mind you I don't think I'll change the basic system, even if only because it makes administering combat so much easier if actions are distinct rather than simultaneous.

 

I've always held it up as an improvement over other systems. One thing that does cause me problems, at least intellectually, is the concept of half moves. The problem is this: The Juggler has a DEX of 24, and a SPD of 6. The Shootist has a DEX of 23 and a SPD of 6. The Shootist has drawn his gun and has it pointed basically in the direction of the Juggler, but doesn't have a held action. The Juggler can, on his phase, run over to The Shootist and (unless, of course, he aborts), The Juggler can disarm The Shootist, even though the difference in their initiative is miniscule.

 

One option is this: at the start of your phase, start at your DEX, and take your first action then. Free actions take no time, zero phase actions reduce your DEX for intitiative purposes (DFIP) by 1, but you can take as many as are reasonable. Taking a half phase action halves your current DFIP - round halves in your favour, as always.

 

This is a tradeoff of playability v believability. It would address my concerns regarding the apparently daft situation with The Juggler and The Shootist above, but would mean more book-keeping and slow combat 'in reality' even more. I have never felt the need to use this level of complexity, despite the fact that the simpler system isn't always totally logical.

 

Any game system has to fulfil certain aims: it has to model a particular phenomenon and it has to do so in a way that is believable to the players and fair to the players. This is most certainly not always the same thing, and so compromise is required.

 

I was going to give you an alternative rolling initiative system at this point, but it is probably unnecessarily complex and isn't going to add anything to the game. If you are concerned about players finding the current initiative system too predicatable, can I suggest that:

 

1. You don't announce the speed of the villain
   
2. You make use of held actions whenever possible and also don't tell them
   

 

This will make predicting when the villain is going to act next far harder and obfuscate their true speed, but the players will be able to get an idea of how quick an opponent is: that is only fair.

 

The other way to do it is buy your villains with speed on an activation roll: every PS12 you see if each extra point of speed activates, and set the speed for the turn accordingly. That'll keep 'em guessing.

 

Bottom line though (and it really is time I got to the bottom line, isn't it), before you change the initiative system, analyse what you don't like about it and see if you can change that: speed too useful, in your opinion? Increase the cost. 15 or 20 points per point will make high speeds far less common. Too predicatable?..see suggestions above.

 

I'm shutting up now

[zornwil]

Re: Initiative...

 

Thanks, TRL. BTW, I never announce NPCs' SPDs, though the players quickly surmise them. I don't mind that, I find that to be representative of how PCs learn in combat about their opponents. I don't tell players about NPCs' held actions, nor do I believe NPCs are aware (specifically, certainly possibly by implication) of the PCs'.

 

As to the half-move/half-phase issue, I do find that to be an interesting condundrum. I let it go, pretty much, and don't get that granular, but your suggestions are eminently reasonable on the whole. I saw somewhere else some rules someone did on basically breaking the Segment into a Half-Segment, as it were (not necessarily their terminology) and characters take a single half action in DEX order, then another round. It certainly would slow down combat but it would, I tend to think, heighten the sense of realism/granularity.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Initiative...

 

As to the half-move/half-phase issue' date=' I do find that to be an interesting condundrum. I let it go, pretty much, and don't get that granular, but your suggestions are eminently reasonable on the whole. I saw somewhere else some rules someone did on basically breaking the Segment into a Half-Segment, as it were (not necessarily their terminology) and characters take a single half action in DEX order, then another round. It certainly would slow down combat but it would, I tend to think, heighten the sense of realism/granularity.[/quote']

 

That might have been me. I think you and I exchanged posts about this. I no longer do this as I have my initiative system... but if I was still using the Speed Chart I would still be doing so. (Each phase is broken into two half phases... so a charactdr who has to half move attack, will get hit before he can attack by the character who just attacks. It worked well enough at the time.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Initiative...

 

...but your suggestions are eminently reasonable on the whole...

 

 

I can only apologise, I have no idea what came over me. Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Initiative...

 

That might have been me. I think you and I exchanged posts about this. I no longer do this as I have my initiative system... but if I was still using the Speed Chart I would still be doing so. (Each phase is broken into two half phases... so a charactdr who has to half move attack' date=' will get hit before he can attack by the character who just attacks. It worked well enough at the time.)[/quote']

 

How did you adjudicate full phase actions? Did they happen in the first half phase, the second, or start in the first and end in the second? I think I'd be inclined to say that they occur first (out of DEX order, except for other full phse actions) in the second half phases, but I have no idea how that would play out...

 

I'm thinking something like a full move move-through could be (inappropriately)disastrous if you broke it down into two half move actions...

 

One other thing that just struck me that could have quite a dramatic effect on combat and initiative would be to say that an attack does not end your phase, but that you can not take more than one attack action in any given segment. Assuming you allow half phases to be held, a SPD 5 character could attack on Seg 3, hold his second half action, then attack on Seg 4, then again on his normal phase 5, and so on.

 

That should speed combat up as it means you'd get more attacks in between recoveries, and your initiative would become far more a matter of tactics than numbers...

[RDU Neil]

Re: Initiative...

 

How did you adjudicate full phase actions? Did they happen in the first half phase, the second, or start in the first and end in the second? I think I'd be inclined to say that they occur first (out of DEX order, except for other full phse actions) in the second half phases, but I have no idea how that would play out...

 

I'm thinking something like a full move move-through could be (inappropriately)disastrous if you broke it down into two half move actions...

 

 

Can only comment on this in retrospect, as I never analyzed it to death or wrote it out. Full phase actions began in the first half, ended in the second half phase on your Dex (unless the maneuver specifically states that it happens at the end of the phase, like Haymaker... then it went last, no matter DEX.) Full move Move-Through... begins in the first half, ends on your DEX of the Second half. Half move MOve-Through begins and ends in the first half phase as per DEX.

 

I basically used it to give the person with the gun chance to pull the trigger on the person who has to run toward them and swing a fist. (As an example.) It didn't come up all the time... but it did lend for, say... the hero sweeping in toward the agents who are bunkered down and ready... so the agents could get of shots at the hero as he flies in to smoosh them. Happens all the time in comics, where you see bullets bouncing off of Supes' chest right before he takes out the tank or jeep or whatever. Seemed to work fine... but then I was just winging it. No one ever complained that I remember.)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Initiative...

 

First and foremost, I like the current system. It not only works, it works well. You know when your character can act, and aren't bound to act then or lose the action. For anyone who thinks it's too rigid or predicable, try holding or delaying a Phase once in a while.

 

Second, adding a random element to the current system doesn't work too well. You pretty much need to go with an entirely different system. Granted, you can get one that works similar, but it doesn't work the same. Otherwise you are still stick acting on certain Segments, or certain Dexes and such.

 

Thirs, the phrase "roll for initiative" is not integral to the RPG experience. Those who feel so probably have played a lot of hack and slash (no offense to anyone with this opinion). For other systems, the roll is there to simulate the randomness of a combat; to take into account all those little things that can happen that can slow someone down or grant the slow guy the advantage. From what I can gather though, combat is not random, and all those "little" things are already taken into account in the Hero System using other rules. The fact is that a quicker character will act first. The only exception to this is when that character makes a decision to not act as fast as he can, or when someone surprises him. None of this should be represented by a random roll in my opinion.

 

All that being said, here's an idea for adding a little chaos to determining initiative.

 

At the start of combat, everybody makes a DEX Roll. Lightning Reflexes apply as a bonus to this roll. The character who makes it by the most goes first. INT rolls break ties. If it's still tied, PRE can break those. If for some reason there is still a tie, it's destiny for those characters to act simultaneously (both declare actions before resolving either, no aborts after the action is declared). For added tension, don't break a tie until it's their turn. As for the number of actions, characters just take them one at a time, in order, until everybody is out of actions. Alternatively, a character can declare a "double action", where he acts a second time, but takes the stand penalties for performing a Sweep or Rapid Fire maneuver.

 

One more little note: For simplicity's sake, if you want to create a random system for initiative, try to make it a system that's easy to without any tools other than dice and a pencil and paper, and that makes use of the current rules conventions (use d6s instead of other types of dice, for example). That way you can still run a game at the park if you've forgotten your laptop.

[zornwil]

Re: Initiative...

 

That might have been me. I think you and I exchanged posts about this. I no longer do this as I have my initiative system... but if I was still using the Speed Chart I would still be doing so. (Each phase is broken into two half phases... so a charactdr who has to half move attack' date=' will get hit before he can attack by the character who just attacks. It worked well enough at the time.)[/quote']

Thanks, yes, that makes sense. Bad memory here!

[Guzalot]

Re: Initiative...

 

WARNING: Before introducing a random element into initiative' date=' realize that doing so will slow combat down, for two reasons:

1. You're adding Yet Another Die Roll to the process for every PC and NPC every Phase (sometimes more than one, when tiebreaker rolls are needed).
2. You can't prepare a combat sheet in advance, so the action will generally be less smooth, and you'll do a lot of asking who goes next.

That doesn't mean you absolutely shouldn't do it -- I agree there's something to be said for a bit of unpredictability in the combat order -- just be aware that you might be tossing sand into machinery that isn't always lightning-fast in the first place.

I agree. I try keep things as simple as possible to ensure smooth gameplay. That's just me though.