Str Minimum For Armor

[Frenchman]

I'm starting a Fantasy Hero game this weekend (again) and this time around I'd like to deal with 8-strength pickpockets in heavy plate armor before it has a chance to come up. The first (and so far best) idea I had was to put Strength Minimums on armor. This game is, like most of mine, a low-powered game in which characters don't pay for equipment.

But what should the Str Min be for different armors?

What effects should exceeding the Str Min have?

What about not meeting it?

What, if any, general penalties should be applied to those who wear armor?

I've come up with this so far, but I'd like your comments, criticism, and ideas.

 

Armor Type DEF STR Min Dex Penalty

Cloth 1 3 -0

Leather 2 5 -1

Studded Leather 3 7 -1

Scale Mail 4 8 -2

Chain Mail 5 10 -2

Banded Mail 6 12 -3

Plate & Chain 7 13 -3

Plate Mail 8 15 -4

Full Plate Mail 9 17 -4

Dwarven Plate 10 18 -5

 

So far, I figure that the following rules should apply to this list.

Unless a character has, and uses, 3 strength above the strength minimum of the armor, its wearer must spend an additional 1 END during each phase in which they use their strength.

 

If the STR min of any armor is exceeded by 5 or more, the DEX penalty is reduced by 1.

 

If the STR min of an armor is not met by its wearer, they suffer an additional –1 DEX penalty for every 5 points of STR, or fraction thereof, that they lack.

 

 

I just put armor types in to make the list feel more whole, but I really care about relative DEF values. I based the str mins on a couple of ideals of mine (I'd like a guy with 18 str to be able to put on a good show in 8 DEF armor at almost optimum, and 5 DEF at 13-15, but I want to keep 1-2 DEF in easy reach of low-str characters). I'm not really happy with the number progression of the str mins, but I'll end up tinkering with it when I have the time.

And so, thats what I've got, but I'd like some input from the rest of you (otherwise, why am I here?)

Thanks, all

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

I believe this is what Encumbrance rules are for.

 

The STR 8 pick pocket can barely LIFT plate armour (actually, can he lift it at all?). Wearing it or not, he will be slowed and receive penalties.

[Markdoc]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

I'd make a couple of changes.

 

First off, you have plate mail (which is a mixture of plate and chain) and then you plate and chain as a seperate entry. Then you have full plate (by which I guess you mean articulated plate, without the chain).

 

I'd just collapse the lot down into plate and chain (7 points) and articulated plate (8 pts).

 

I also just set a flat penalty for armour. This is not to reflect weight so much - armour is distributed, so weight is less important than if you were carrying the lot on your back. It's more to do with how much the armour restricts your movement (and all armour does - if it wasn't bulky or hard it wouldn't be protective).

 

The penalty is light /medium/heavy and is -1/-2/-3. This penalty applies to CV, and all DEX related skills, it also applies to PER rolls if your head is covered and to your REC. Even a big strong guy will get tired faster in hot, confining armour. I work out what constitutes each category of armour by giving 3 points to each category, in other words, DEF 1-3 is light, DEF 4-6 is medium and DEF 7+ is heavy. This is modified by coverage. A breastplate is DEF 8, but only covers your torso and shoulders (about 30% of your hit locations), so it is effectively Def 8/3 = DEF 3 for a -1 penalty. Add a helmet or greaves and it becomes medium. And so on.

 

I allow people to buy Penalty skill levels to offset the CV penalties, so a guy who is experienced in using armour is not greatly hampered by it in combat, but you can't buy PSL to offset the other penalties. That means that armour is good - but not ideal for sneaky missions or times when you are going to be moving around a lot. I find it encourages players to wear lighter armour most of the time, but gear up for straight battles - which is exactly what I want.

 

cheers, Mark

[Curufea]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

And if you want to throw in some reality - chain is heavier than plate.

[Guest The Comet]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

Alternatively you could fight fire with fire and have a kickboxing knight kick the cr*p out of 'em while wearing battlefield plate. Once they see how ridiculous that would be they may be a little less likely to come up with unsuitable ideas of thier owm. Childish I know, but sometimes it's the only way.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

I believe this is what Encumbrance rules are for.

 

The STR 8 pick pocket can barely LIFT plate armour (actually, can he lift it at all?). Wearing it or not, he will be slowed and receive penalties.

 

A STR 8 person can lift 76 kg. DEF 8 armor weighes 20 kg*. Consulting the encumbrance table, he's in the 25% to 49% category, putting his DCV and DEX roll at -2, his movement at -1", and burning 1 END/Turn just to move in this hot, clunky, thing.

 

 

 

* which is very forgiving, IMHO, some plate armor weighed in at 30 kg, I guess that was the cheaper "double mass" stuff or a higher DEF.

[Old Man]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

You could also do as Old Man suggested and use the Encumbrance Table but using Casual STR instead....

[Christougher]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

You could also do as Old Man suggested and use the Encumbrance Table but using Casual STR instead....

 

Damn, beat me to the suggestion. The time(s) I considered this, basing armor STR mins on casual STR seemed the best effect. They had to pay END once per turn for the STR used (pretty much the same as the REC penalty). Higher encumbrance meant paying the END per phase. Imposed additional DEX penalties when less than STR min. I also tinkered with a modified hit location chart so that hit locations covered exactly equaled armor weights and defenses. Might have to go find those ideas...

[Curufea]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

Basing weight on effectiveness of the armour is unrealistic. There is more metal in mail, than there is in plate. A mail hauberk is likely to way the same as a full plate suit.

 

Plus, the various hardened leather armours are very light compared to their defensive value.

 

Some sort of modifer for material type should be used, rather than just the base DEF of an armour type.

[Markdoc]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

Pretty nice system Markdoc. I think I may adapt it to my current fantasy hero campaign' date=' although I'll probably reduce the REC penalty a bit.[/quote']

 

Actually, all that happened in my game was that armour-mongers simply bought a couple more points of REC or CON. Made sense to me - if you spend plenty of time running around in armour and you don't die from heat prostration you'll get pretty damn fit.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

You could also do as Old Man suggested and use the Encumbrance Table but using Casual STR instead....

 

This is what I used to do.

 

I found the natural outcome was that everybody was STR 20 and heavily armoured. I should have seenthat coming

 

Hence, the non-negotiable penalty!

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

Basing weight on effectiveness of the armour is unrealistic. There is more metal in mail' date=' than there is in plate. A mail hauberk is likely to way the same as a full plate suit.[/quote']

 

All true.

 

Plus, the various hardened leather armours are very light compared to their defensive value.

 

Some sort of modifer for material type should be used, rather than just the base DEF of an armour type.

 

But leather armours are also thick and bulky (comparatively speaking) compared to metal and can't readily be articulated, making them relatively clumsy. Every armour type has some plusses and minuses (leather armour is also almost useless against thrusting weapons with a thin cross section, but almost as good as plate armour against bludgeoning weapons, etc etc).

 

If you want a more detailed armour system, it should be possible to work one out with Hero system. I wouldn't be against someone designing such a system, but though I have played around with it, for my own use, I opted for simplicity over accurate design, since the simple system promoted the behaviour I wanted.

 

cheers, Mark

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

A STR 8 person can lift 76 kg. DEF 8 armor weighes 20 kg*. Consulting the encumbrance table, he's in the 25% to 49% category, putting his DCV and DEX roll at -2, his movement at -1", and burning 1 END/Turn just to move in this hot, clunky, thing.

 

 

 

* which is very forgiving, IMHO, some plate armor weighed in at 30 kg, I guess that was the cheaper "double mass" stuff or a higher DEF.

 

He can lift 76 KG at "max effort" (the old stagger and collapse). I think that means he can lift 36 KG fairly easily... which only just includes the heavier armours.

[Old Man]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

This is what I used to do.

 

I found the natural outcome was that everybody was STR 20 and heavily armoured. I should have seenthat coming

 

Hence, the non-negotiable penalty!

 

cheers, Mark

 

Yeah, I use the normal encumbrance chart with additional flat penalties.

[Curufea]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

All true.

 

But leather armours are also thick and bulky (comparatively speaking) compared to metal and can't readily be articulated, making them relatively clumsy. Every armour type has some plusses and minuses (leather armour is also almost useless against thrusting weapons with a thin cross section, but almost as good as plate armour against bludgeoning weapons, etc etc).

 

If you want a more detailed armour system, it should be possible to work one out with Hero system. I wouldn't be against someone designing such a system, but though I have played around with it, for my own use, I opted for simplicity over accurate design, since the simple system promoted the behaviour I wanted.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

True, but leather wasn't often articulated. Used mainly as the equivalent of breastplates, or floating plate / transition plate. The joints would be either unprotected by the hardened leather, and possibly covered with something else.

 

Anyhow, I agree - simplicity is often the best. But you could, for example - for articulated plate (or any articulated armours) include a side effect of one or more points lost on DEX and/or DEX related skills. ie mail is heavier than plate - but it is easier to swim in it, and take it off/put it on etc..

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

Look at this link

 

http://www.stormpages.com/dwarlock/joaquin.html

[CourtFool]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

Will STR Mins really resolve your issue or will all your pick pockets just have a 20 STR now?

[Markdoc]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

Look at this link

 

http://www.stormpages.com/dwarlock/joaquin.html

 

Woo! Nice outfit!

 

But it makes the point very well - no matter how used you are to armour, while you might be able to move very well in it, you will NEVER be able to move as flexibly as you could without it.

 

This is why the Knights of Malta used to train in double weight armour - so that in normal weight armour, they would be faster and able to react better. Of course, the same applies - with NO armour they would be faster still...

 

cheers, Mark

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Str Minimum For Armor

 

Never said it, but if a man in Plate Armour could make cartwheels and jump on an Horse, the Restriction for a man trained to use this armor shouldn´t be great.