Not reasoning from effects

[Sean Waters]

For years I've been trying to work out how to do this, and this afternoon I think I might have cracked it.

 

Even read MiracleMan? Alan Moore and John Tottleben (sp?) from memory. Fantastic. Highly recommended.

 

Basically there's a process whereby a superpowered body can be built for you and insterted into hyperspace. When you say your magic word (actually a post hypnotic trigger) the 'super body' and your normal body swap places. Bit like Captain Marvel. Easy enough - OIHID, right, maybe multiform?

 

Not quite. Thing is the bodies are quite seperate - if your normal human form has a black eye when you say your magic word, you'll still have it when you come back AND your superform won't have it - damage does not transfer between forms. Even the mentalities are different - they have the same 'soul' but MiracleMan is so much more in every way than his alter ego, Mike Moran.

 

We've had all kinds of hacks over the years, and I'm wondering how you'd do it?

 

I do have a solution I think will work, but, if i may, I'll withhold it at present so as not to pollute your imaginative process, plus I want to look it up in the book before I present it.

[Agent X]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

For years I've been trying to work out how to do this, and this afternoon I think I might have cracked it.

 

Even read MiracleMan? Alan Moore and John Tottleben (sp?) from memory. Fantastic. Highly recommended.

 

Basically there's a process whereby a superpowered body can be built for you and insterted into hyperspace. When you say your magic word (actually a post hypnotic trigger) the 'super body' and your normal body swap places. Bit like Captain Marvel. Easy enough - OIHID, right, maybe multiform?

 

Not quite. Thing is the bodies are quite seperate - if your normal human form has a black eye when you say your magic word, you'll still have it when you come back AND your superform won't have it - damage does not transfer between forms. Even the mentalities are different - they have the same 'soul' but MiracleMan is so much more in every way than his alter ego, Mike Moran.

 

We've had all kinds of hacks over the years, and I'm wondering how you'd do it?

 

I do have a solution I think will work, but, if i may, I'll withhold it at present so as not to pollute your imaginative process, plus I want to look it up in the book before I present it.

Duplication with appropriate modifiers, Mind Link, Extradimensional Travel with appropriate modifiers

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

Hmm... I think Multiform IS the right way to go. Moran and MiracleMan are essentially the same person, other than physically. You just need to link something to it that shows the other body has switched to hyperspace (instead of merely changing into the new form).

[Agent X]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

Hmm... I think Multiform IS the right way to go. Moran and MiracleMan are essentially the same person' date=' other than physically. You just need to link something to it that shows the other body has switched to hyperspace (instead of merely changing into the new form).[/quote'] It'll work unless it's possible to get to the other form in hyperspace and/or they "communicate."

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

It'll work unless it's possible to get to the other form in hyperspace and/or they "communicate."

Yeah. In the series, the former becomes possible with the shared Qys technology. And, I just realized, Multiform would require a new adder, to account for the fact that BODY, STUN, and END losses do not transfer between forms. Not quite so smooth. :/

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

Do not forget the short lived Marvel Hero called DarkHawk. He also had this power.

 

I'd allow a similar character with a +20 Adder that meant that damage or changes of any kind did not carry over to the other form.

 

Hawksmoor

[sbarron]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

Maybe you could just link a big aid/heal, only to current level of other form, when you switch between bodies. Then take a limit that it doesn't help either actually get heathier.

 

I'd probably just make it a special effect, though. It has potential drawbacks and benefits, so I'd call it a wash.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

If the other body can't leave hyperspace unless it's replaced there by the normal body, and vice-versa, then this, I think, is very clearly multiform, with the special effect of "Switching places with my other body in Hyperspace."

[simplygnome]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

I like the sound of the Duplication, with an altered duplicate, and then have an EDM but only to switch places with the other....

 

Its very much how they modelled Astral Travel in FRED.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

Y'see I should have asked years ago...the way I'd decided to do it was exactly as Agent X suggested - Duplication/Mind link/EDM. Slaps forehead...

 

On the other hand I like the suggestions made. Hawksmoor's adder to multiform is good, but in the comic they (in a later episode) actually managed to retrieve things from the 'pocket dimension', and all the 'swapped' bodies were lined up there, so I do see it as dual body rather than the one body changing, as Just a Name Guy mentioned. Seriously, if you haven't read it, try to get hold of it. here's a review, and the foaming enthusiasm of the reviewer is entirely justified.

 

http://www.popmatters.com/comics/miracleman-book1.shtml

 

Thanks for all your comments!

[Wanderer]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

Well, since from what I understand about Miracleman sfx, the character's mind can only animate one body at the time, ever, I don't see the point of using Duplication. It may be done surely (Duplication is great for other uses past its name, eg for Resurrection or cloning), but it seems overly complex. That body in pocket universe never ever does anything, it is unconscious and in suspended animation while "off" in the pocket universe.

 

Now since it's a swapping of normal and super body at heart, why not placing the OIHID Limitation on all superpowers (including superhuman Characteristics, bought as Powers; just decide where is the cutoff between normal and super, and set the latter as additive to the former), and place the following Limitation on Healing/Regeneration powers: Does Not Heal Damage to Normal Form (-1/4). This method only creates problems if normal form has any characteristic higher in normal than in super form (from what I know about Miracleman, that's not the case: normal identity was whimpier both physically and mentally). This is the way I set up Thor/Shazam type characters.

 

Alternatively, Mutliform with the suggested Adder would be the way to go.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

Well, since from what I understand about Miracleman sfx, the character's mind can only animate one body at the time, ever, I don't see the point of using Duplication. It may be done surely (Duplication is great for other uses past its name, eg for Resurrection or cloning), but it seems overly complex. That body in pocket universe never ever does anything, it is unconscious and in suspended animation while "off" in the pocket universe.

 

Now since it's a swapping of normal and super body at heart, why not placing the OIHID Limitation on all superpowers (including superhuman Characteristics, bought as Powers; just decide where is the cutoff between normal and super, and set the latter as additive to the former), and place the following Limitation on Healing/Regeneration powers: Does Not Heal Damage to Normal Form (-1/4). This method only creates problems if normal form has any characteristic higher in normal than in super form (from what I know about Miracleman, that's not the case: normal identity was whimpier both physically and mentally). This is the way I set up Thor/Shazam type characters.

 

Alternatively, Mutliform with the suggested Adder would be the way to go.

 

 

...but what if the normal body is beaten to a pulp and then changes - that damage would have to carry over using a multiform, wouldn't it?

 

I appreciate you can't use both bodies at once but that is no different from the Astral Form example in the sidebar next to duplication, is it?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

It doesn't cost anything to keep each form of a Multiform having seperat damages. It's an option available with GM permission. The drawbacks outweigh the advantages anyway. On the one hand, if your normal form gets injured, your superform is still at full, but it can't use it's super REC or Healing to make the normal form better.

[Labrat]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

...but what if the normal body is beaten to a pulp and then changes - that damage would have to carry over using a multiform, wouldn't it?

 

I appreciate you can't use both bodies at once but that is no different from the Astral Form example in the sidebar next to duplication, is it?

 

I always separated the two like this:

Duplication... more help with you

Multiform... more help available to you

 

How would switching bodies in different locations do either? It sounds like a special effect to me. Just put a limitation on the Multiform that says that all forms retain previously sustained damage (-0, or -1/4 at best). I can't remember if this is an 'automatic' rule or not so forgive me if it's redundant.

[Wanderer]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

-looking at Astral Form Writeup-

 

Well, certainly one may use such a Duplication writeup for Miracleman body-switching, but IMO using such managment-complex abilities like Duplication with Altered Duplicate and Multiform (separate character sheets, Xp apportioning between forms) to manage such a basic superheroic ability as form-changing looks like unneeded complication and overkill.

 

The whole point of Astral Form Duplication is that the original body stays behind, helpless and comatose, in the real world, needing guarding and protection to prevent enemies and opportunistic hostile entities to damage the character by getting at it. Since the other body is shunted in safe storage in pocket dimension while super body is active (and vice-versa), there's no real distinction, gamewise, from body transforming from one form to another. true, in rare cases, enemies may be able to whip up some superscience or mystic way of accessing pocket dimension, but I'd see it as a case-by-case rare sfx effect best left to GM's fiat.

 

Again, IMO, the best way of addressing such a body-switching form-change is the OIHID Limitation, paired with buying all superhuman form Characteristics, Skills, and Talents as Powers, and tagging both REC and Healing/Regeneration Powers with the Limitation "BODY, END and STUN lost in one form do not heal in the other" (-1/4), and the 0-point Physical Limitation "BODY, END and STUN lost in one form do not carry over to the other" (it is both a boon and a burden: body-switching temporarily removes current injuries and fatigue, but they do not heal or recover while character stays in alternate form).

 

OIHID generally in my experience is smoother and simpler to set u and use than Multiform (no separate sheet, no Xp accounting hassle), except when there is a significant change of mentality between normal and super form (e.g. Hulk), or some Characteristics are lower in super than in normal form. Besides, MiracleMan is a variant of Shazam/Captain Marvel, which along with Thor is the poster child for OIHID.

[OddHat]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

I'm with Dust Raven on this. Damage not carrying over is just a GM's option on Multiform. As to the pocket universe filled with stored bodies, that's a special effect. Only very rarely is it likely to have any game effect; probably only once or twice in a campaign. There's no point in stating it out.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Not reasoning from effects

 

-looking at Astral Form Writeup-

I originally thought using Duplication for an astral form was a brillian idea, until I actually sat down and wrote one up. After thinking about it, I started using Multiform with the Limitation we used to put on Desol (Leaves Body Behind, -1). Afterall, with astral form you never has two of you in action, only one, and having only one of you but two places to hurt you at is a disadvantage, not an advantage.