Curufea Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Based on early-late medieval wages list for England http://www.curufea.com/games/western/5e/wages.php The original list is here- http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/medievalprices.html I modified the wages according to inflation (by a comparison to Thatcher wages) and broke them down into day/week/month/year if they weren't already. Low wages I presume are best represented by employees of merchants, and high wages by noble employees. And for those that don't know Imperial - 12 Pennies (d) = 1 Shilling (s) 20 Shillings = 1 Pound (L) I changed "Welsh" to "Militia" and seperated "Baron" and "Earl" into a further "Baronet" and "Duke". A Vintener is in charge of 20 men. A Constable or Centenar is in charge of 100 men. There are good lists in the Harn system as well, but I don't have it handy. I'm also thinking of typing up the medieval section of the Rolemaster book "... and a 10-Foot Pole" from the mithril/platinum/gold/silver/bronze system of theirs into the Imperial system for use with my Western Shores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Very nice. Repped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agemegos Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages I changed "Welsh" to "Militia" and seperated "Baron" and "Earl" into a further "Baronet" and "Duke". Dubious. There were no dukes in England until 1337 (when the Duchy of Cornwall was created as an appanage for the heir apparent to the throne), and none outside the royal family until 1396. The title 'baronet' was invented in 1611. The mediaeval period in England ended in 1485. What figures have you used for the 'wages' of nobles? The income of their estates? Finally, I am a bit worried about your figure for the wage of an unskilled worker. My researches showed that it was never lower than 1.25 pence per day (in the Twelfth Century) and rose to 3.75 pence per day after about 1350. Are you sure that the figures you based your adjustments on were the whole wage? Are you sure that there were not substantial payments in kind (livery) in addition to the cash wage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted March 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages This is why it is in the Fantasy Hero forum - not Other Genre as historical It is "Based on..." (as stated in the first sentence) You can have a look at the original document which actually IS researched. I merely split up the low income and the high income of a noble title into different titles. Mind you, if you had looked at the original document you would see it covers a period of over 300 years, from the 13th to the late 16th centuries. Might I recommend having a look at the original document? Failing that you can check the bibliography quoted in the original document :- Sources [1] English Wayfaring Life in the XIVth Century, J. J. Jusserand, trans Lucy Smith, Putnam's Sons, New York,1931 (Orig. 1889). [2] London in the Age of Chaucer, A. R. Myers, University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, 1972 [3] Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages, Christopher Dyer, Cambridge University Press, 1989 [4] English Weapons & Warfare, 449-1660, A. V. B. Norman and Don Pottinger, Barnes & Noble, 1992 (orig. 1966) [5] The Armourer and his Craft from the XIth to the XVIth Century, Charles ffoulkes, Dover, 1988 (orig. 1912) [6] "The Cost of Castle Building: The Case of the Tower at Langeais," Bernard Bachrach, in The Medieval Castle: Romance and Reality, ed. Kathryn Reyerson and Faye Powe, Kendall/Hunt, Dubuque, Iowa, 1984 [7] The Knight in History, Frances Gies, Harper & Row, New York, 1984 [8] Methods and Practice of Elizabethan Swordplay, Craig Turner and Tony Soper, Southern Illinois University Press, Carbondale, 1990 [9] Life in a Medieval City, Joseph and Frances Gies, Harper & Row, New York, 1969 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HewhoisMatt Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages I would have thought there would have been more pay in goods, and services such as room, and board or training in a skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted March 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages But to answer your question - No, I'm not sure. I didn't do any research AT ALL. The medieval period is not one I am that interested in getting historically accurate, I'm more interested in the dark ages. However it is a good period to set high fantasy roleplaying campaigns - which I do intend on doing soon. To create a roleplaying setting with elements of fantasy and magic, I'm not too worried about making it exactly duplicate real history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galadorn Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages But to answer your question - No, I'm not sure. I didn't do any research AT ALL. The medieval period is not one I am that interested in getting historically accurate, I'm more interested in the dark ages. However it is a good period to set high fantasy roleplaying campaigns - which I do intend on doing soon. To create a roleplaying setting with elements of fantasy and magic, I'm not too worried about making it exactly duplicate real history. The best period for High Fantasy I think is 1283-1299 in England. This was a colonizing period, and alot of castles were built. But there was also alot of Wilderness era left. I try to place all my games in a concrete Medieval time frame, so it makes it easy reference work for me. All I have to do is look up technology or law in this time Period and I'm set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrakazog Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages A well done effort which I will immediately pirate for use in my own campaign. Repped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard00 Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages A well done effort which I will immediately pirate for use in my own campaign. Repped. Yeah, what he said. Um, which campaign is that, Thrak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted March 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages I've just finished converting the version 3 Netbook of D&D prices as well for anyone interested in a High Fantasy price list done in imperial currency. The Base Unit of 1 copper piece being converted to a farthing (quarter of a penny). I'll post it later today - it's simplified (If a price range was offered, I chose the lowest of the range). I'm not going to bother making this one historic, I'll save that for the "... and a 10 foot pole" conversion (which is about 10% done). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterBaldy Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Great information Curufea... You have been REPPED appropriately!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted March 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Okay, the netbook conversion is a bit too large to put here, so here's a link to where I've hosted my conversion- http://www.curufea.com/games/western/5e/fantasyprices.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agemegos Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages I didn't do any research AT ALL. To create a roleplaying setting with elements of fantasy and magic, I'm not too worried about making it exactly duplicate real history. Fair enough. I on the other hand am afraid that if I pay no attention at all to realism I will set myself up for a fall. So I actually did some research when I was compiling my mediaeval price list. Trusty old Google seem to tell me that no-one is hosting a copy any more, so here is some grist for your mill. I hope you don't have too much trouble with the format. My players refused to understand pounds, shillings, and pence, so I have put all these figures in pennies. MEDIAEVAL PRICE LIST This price list is intended to replace those used in fantasy role-playing games, which are rarely informed by reality. It is based as far as possible on the actual prices of commodities between 1100 AD and 1400 AD, concentrating on earlier. As far as is possible, prices have been adjusted to reflect the inflation of silver and the debasement of coins, and are given in a epoch of about 1200 AD, even though some of the items were not in fact available in 1200 AD. Prices in this list are given in pence, each equal to the value of the Carolingian penny or denier of 1/240th of a (Roman) pound of silver. That is to say that a penny weighed about 1.35 gammes, which would make it about the size of a pre-decimal Australia threepence, which is rather small. The English did not mint anything other than pennies during the mediæval period, nor did they debase the penny. Groats (gros) worth four deniers were minted on the Continent, but they were soon debased. The most common gold coin seems to have weighed 3.5 grammes, and to have been called an ecu, florin, ducat, crown, bezaint, or sequin, depending on where it was minted. As the relative prices of gold and silver varied, so would its value, from about 37 to about 75 pence. A normal or average value of 60 pence (5 shillings) seems not unreasonable. Farthings were not minted in copper. They were made by cutting pennies into quarters. From the time of King John (about 1200) pennies had crosses on the back to guide their accurate cutting. Asterices (*) mark prices interpolated from RPG price lists. Armour Leather 60 Scale* 600 Mail 1,200 Partial plate 1,640 Plate armour, complete 2,000 Improved plate* 2,400 Bascinet, with lining 200 Board & Lodging College/boarding school, per week 24 Inn, London– beds, per night 1 Inn, rural– meal with drinks 2 †heat and light private chamber 1.25 †beds for gentlemen, per night 0.5 †beds for servants, per night 0.25 †hot bath 2 †stabling and fodder (per horse) 1.25 Rent, cottage, per year 60 †craftsman’s house †240 †merchant’s house †600 Building construction Church, 125’, stonework only 27,000 †cathedral 500,000+ Cottage, 2storey– w. material free 480 Hall & chamber, modest 2,880 –labour only, materials from estate Hovel, from materials available 120 Wooden gatehouse, with drawbridge –with materials from estate 1,280 –plus value of materials 3,840 Stone gatehouse, in modest private castle –with materials from estate 4,000 –plus value of materials 7,200 Tower (in large royal castle) 48,000 Well, per fathom deep 18 Buildings & real estate Row house (in York, well built) 1,200 Craftsman’s house, with shop, 2,880 workers’ quarters, and tile roof Merchant’s house, in large city 7,200 House with a courtyard, †21,600 Guildhall in large city 32,600 (hall, 2 chambers, buttery, pantry, kitchen) Clothing Prices listed are for plain, standard-quality. Apply modifiers for expensive materials, fine workmanship, and so forth. Belt, weapon 2 Boots, pair 8 Chemise, linen 8 Cloak, woolen 36 †fur-lined 116 Gown (long), woolen 36 Gloves* 3 Hat 10 Kirtle, woolen 24 Purse 1.5 Quiver, red leather 9 Robe, woolen 36 Scarf* 1 Shoes, pair 4.5 Surcoat, linen 24 Trousers*, woolen 20 Tunic (short)/doublet 24 Underlinen 12 Clothing modifiers Dyed, dear (scarlet, green, black) x1.6 †rare (purple, royal blue) x2 Fur lining, cheap +80 †luxury furs +480–720 Fine cloth x2 Shoddy (recycled rags) x0.4 Silk x12 Household furnishings Basin & ewer 16–32 Blanket, woolen 15 Bottle 3 Bowl, earthenware 0.25 Candles, tallow, in the country, per lb. 1.5 †tallow, in a large city, per lb. 2 †wax, per lb. 6.5 Chair 4 Chest 6 †large, for clothes 24 Coffer (strongbox) 12 Cup, earthenware 0.25 †glass 2.5 Ewer, metal (brass? pewter?) 6 Knife, eating 2 Mattress, straw 2 Mirror, silvered 24 Padlock 12 Pillow 1 Plate, earthenware 0.25 Pot, cooking, ceramic 0.5 †brass, large 12 Sheet, linen 4 Stool 3 Towel 6 Table 6 Information and Instruction Books, per pecia 9.5 Book rental, per pecia per year 1 (a pecia is approx. 7,500 words, the Bible is about 100 pecia) Fencing instruction, per month 120 Tuition, monastery school, per year 480 â€, private schoolmaster 160 â€, University, basic courses 480 ††fashionable lecturers &c 1200+ Livestock Item Price Capon 2 Calf, weaned 10 Cow 72 †good milker 120 Duck 1 Donkey or mule* 280 Falcon, trained gerfalcon 48 †trained goshawk 60 Fowl (hen) 0.5 Goose 3 Horse, riding hack 300+ †pony* 300+ †trained for horse-archer 480+ †draught horse 1,200+ †palfrey 1,680+ †hunter* 2,100+ †trained destrier 9,600+ Ox 108 Pig (in breeding country) 24 †(in a large city) 36 Pigeon0.25 Sheep (in breeding country) 10 †(in a large city) 17 Precious items Necklace, gold 80 †pearl 282 Ring, gold setting with diamonds 1,800 †gold setting with ruby 320 Spoon, silver 28 Provisions Ale, per gallon 0.5 Bacon, per side 9.5 Bread, 1 loaf (24 oz?) 0.25 Cider, per tun 60 Cheese, retail, per lb 2 †whole, 80 lb 40 Eggs, per dozen 0.5 Fish, herrings, per dozen 1 †Pike, whole, 3’ long 80 †Sturgeon, per barrel 396 Fruit, figs, per lb 1.5 †pears, (30) 1 †pomegranate, 1 only 6 Gingerbread, per lb 36 Grain, barley, per quarter 22 †oats, per quarter 16 †wheat, per quarter 38 Ham, whole 16 Onions, 1 bushel 8 Partridges, per brace 4.5 Raisins, per lb 2 Salt, per bushel 3 Spices, per lb up to 168 Sugar, per lb 12 Wine, fine claret, per tun (252 gal.) 480 †best, per gallon 4–5 †cheapest, per gallon 2 To feed a lord, per day 7 †a squire †4 †yeoman †3 †groom †1 Services Armour, clean & de-rust 5 †overhaul & varnish 16 Carriage, annual maintenance 12–36 Cesspit, empty out 80 Courier, 1 horse, per 50 km or day 12 †2 horses, per 100 km or day 18 Ferry, river crossing for man & horse 1 Guide, for one night 1 Milling grain, per quarter 1 Minstrel, to play at an inn 1 †Christmas gig at manor house 36 Stabling & care, warhorse, per day 5.25 †foal †1.5 Stationery Parchment, folio, per leaf 0.5 Vellum †1.25 Wax, sealing, per lb. 2 Tools and hardware Anvil 240 Armourer’s tools, complete 3,324 Auger 3 Axe 5 Barrel 3 Bellows, large (for forge) 240 Bucket 4 Canvas, 25 yards 80 Chisel 4 Loom and treadle 24 Pick* 1.5 Plough 36 Rope, light, per fathom 0.5 Sand barrel (for cleaning mail) 9 Saw, hand* 12 Saw, cross-cut* 30 Shovel* 1.5 Spade 1.5 Spinning wheel (late) 10 Vat 4 Vise 160 Yoke 16 Vehicles Barge 2,400 Boat, 10’ sailing 78 Carrack* 910 Carriage* 320 Cart, iron-bound 48 â€, wooden (unfit for long trips) 24 Cutter* 95 Dray/waggon, iron-shod wheels 120 Galley, 40-oared* 8,480 †80-oared & masted* 14,896 Wages & Incomes Labourer, per day 1.25 Craftsman, per day armourer 5–6 carpenter 3 mason 4 weaver 2.5 apprentice carpenter 1.75 apprentice armourer 3.75 Landowner, per year (£1 = 240 pence) †knight £30–£300 †baron or abbot £200–£500 †earl/count or bishop £400–£11,000 †King (of England) £30,000 Mercenary, per day Archer 3 †mounted 6 Knight banneret 48 Knight 24 Infantryman, armoured 6 Man-at-arms, mounted 12 Squire 12 Priest (in a chantry), per year 1,120 Servant, per year (plus bed & board) †squire 160–240 †carter, porter, groom, 60–104 falconer, messenger, etc. †indoor and kitchen 24–48 †boys and pages 12–72 Weapons Swords Dagger* 3.5 Main gauche* 7 Short sword* 14 Falchion 12 Scimitar* 20.5 Tulwar* 22 Rapier* 12 Sabre* 14 Broadsword* 17 Estoc* 22 Hand & a Half* 29 Claymore* 27.5 Two-handed sword* 34 Hafted weapons Hand axe 5 Battle axe* 7 Great axe* 10 Giant axe* 13 Crude club* 0.25 War club* 1 Torch 0.25 Mace* 5 Giant mace* 13.5 War hammer* 5 War pick* 7 Flail* 5 Morningstar* 7 Mattock* 6 Quarterstaff* 0.25 Sap* 0.75 Pole weapons Javelin* 1.25 Spear* 3.5 Giant spear* 7 Pike* 5 Lance 6 Halberd* 5 Poleaxe* 7 Trident* 7 Glaive* 5 Giant glaive* 10 Missile weapons Sling* 1.25 Short bow* 14.5 Long bow 18 Composite bow* 21.5 Giant bow* 57.5 Crossbow 60 Cranequin for above* 40 Spearthrower* 1.5 Blowgun* 2 Ammunition Arrows (longbow), (24) 3 Bolts (crossbow), (20) 6.25 Bullets, lead (sling), (8) 1 Entangling weapons Net* 3 Bolas* 4.5 Whip* 7.25 Anachronistic weapons Cestus* 5 Garotte* 2 Shields Buckler* 1.75 Small round shield* 2.75 Large round shield* 3.5 Kite shield* 5 Tower shield* 6.75 Main gauche* 7 Legal privileges Apprenticeship, guild of carpenters 12 †company of mercers 24 Freedom (of a city) 40–240 Marriage licence (for serf) 12–160 Membership, guild of carpenters 40 †company of mercers 240 †other guilds 80–720 Nobility, patent of 30,000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted March 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Very nice! So far I have three pricelists on my Western Shores page - the most recent is the netbook conversion mentioned in the link above, which is simply a conversion of D&D lists into Imperial for those folk wanting High Fantasy. The other two are wages and prices based on historical sources (as in the first post) - albeit based on only one source, a secondary or possibly tertiary source that has its own bibliography and seems fairly reputable. I would like to incorporate you price list into my more historical one if possible. After I put it into a spreadsheet, it's pretty simple to do conversions. I've not yet satisfactorily worked out the conversion rate between fantasy coinage (gp) and historical coinage. It's very difficult to base it on average daily wage - because fantasy settings rarely have them, or have them consistently, or even acknowledge that the occupations they have listed are complete guesses and inconsistent. My main purpose in creating lists on a spreadsheet (and then to webpages) is to then work out conversion factors for the non-standard currencies. In my setting, different cultures use different coinage - and I'd like some realism as to how these compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard00 Posted March 29, 2005 Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Okay, the netbook conversion is a bit too large to put here, so here's a link to where I've hosted my conversion- http://www.curufea.com/games/western/5e/fantasyprices.php I like the list a lot, but I think you should have some sort of legend/conversion chart for your coinage. For example, I know how many shillings per pound, that a shilling is (d) and a pound is (L), but how 'bout the rest of the numbers & letters? I think that should be at the top of the page...or is there a reference somewhere else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted March 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Imperial FH Armour Pennies Price Price LeaTHer 60 5s 4gp 8sp Scale* 600 L2 10s 48gp Mail 1,200 L5 96gp Partial plate 1,640 L6 16s 8d 131gp 2sp Plate armour, complete 2,000 L8 6s 8d 160gp Improved plate* 2,400 L10 192gp Bascinet, wiTH lining 200 16s 8d 16gp Board & Lodging College/boarding school, per week 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp Inn, London" beds, per night 1 1d 8cp Inn, rural" meal wiTH drinks 2 2d 1sp 6cp " heat and light private chamber 1.25 1d 1f 1sp " beds for gentlemen, per night 0.5 2f 4cp " beds for servants, per night 0.25 1f 2cp " hot baTH 2 2d 1sp 6cp " stabling and fodder (per horse) 1.25 1d 1f 1sp Rent, cottage, per year 60 5s 4gp 8sp " craftsman"s house " 240 L1 19gp 2sp " merchant"s house " 600 L2 10s 48gp Building consTRuction Church,125", stonework only 27,000 L112 10s 2160gp " caTHedral 500000 L2083 6s 8d 40000gp Cottage, 2storey" w. material free 480 L2 38gp 4sp Hall & chamber, modest 2,880 L12 230gp 4sp "labour only, materials from estate Hovel, from materials available 120 10s 9gp 6sp Wooden gatehouse, wiTH drawbridge "wiTH materials from estate 1,280 L5 6s 8d 102gp 4sp "plus value of materials 3,840 L16 307gp 2sp Stone gatehouse, in modest private castle "wiTH materials from estate 4,000 L16 13s 4d 320gp "plus value of materials 7,200 L30 576gp Tower (in large royal castle) 48,000 L200 3840gp Well, per faTHom deep 18 1s 6d 1gp 4sp 4cp Buildings & real estate Row house (in York, well built) 1,200 L5 96gp Craftsman"s house, wiTH shop, workers" quarters, and tile roof 2,880 L12 230gp 4sp Merchant"s house, in large city 7,200 L30 576gp House wiTH a courtyard, " 21,600 L90 1728gp Guildhall in large city 32,600 L135 16s 8d 2608gp (hall, 2 chambers, buttery, panTRy, kitchen) CloTHing Prices listed are for plain, standard-quality. Apply modifiers for expensive materials, fine workmanship, and so forTH.Belt, weapon 2 2d 1sp 6cp Boots, pair 8 8d 6sp 4cp Chemise, linen 8 8d 6sp 4cp Cloak, woolen 36 3s 2gp 8sp 8cp " fur-lined 116 9s 8d 9gp 2sp 8cp Gown (long), woolen 36 3s 2gp 8sp 8cp Gloves* 3 3d 2sp 4cp Hat 10 10d 8sp Kirtle, woolen 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp Purse 1.5 1d 2f 1sp 2cp Quiver, red leaTHer 9 9d 7sp 2cp Robe, woolen 36 3s 2gp 8sp 8cp Scarf* 1 1d 8cp Shoes, pair 4.5 4d 2f 3sp 6cp Surcoat, linen 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp TRousers*, woolen 20 1s 8d 1gp 6sp Tunic (short)/doublet 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp Underlinen 12 1s 9sp 6cp CloTHing modifiers Dyed, dear (scarlet, green, black) x1.6 x1.6 x1.6 " rare (purple, royal blue) x2 x2 x2 Fur lining, cheap (an additional) 80 6s 8d 6gp 4sp " luxury furs (an additional) min 480 L2 38gp 4sp " (an additional) max 720 L3 57gp 6sp Fine cloTH x2 x2 x2 Shoddy (recycled rags) x0.4 x0.4 x0.4 Silk x12 x12 x12 Household furnishings Basin & ewer min 16 1s 4d 1gp 2sp 8cp " max 32 2s 8d 2gp 5sp 6cp Blanket, woolen 15 1s 3d 1gp 2sp Bottle 3 3d 2sp 4cp Bowl, earTHenware 0.25 1f 2cp Candles, tallow, in THe counTRy, per lb. 1.5 1d 2f 1sp 2cp " tallow, in a large city, per lb. 2 2d 1sp 6cp " wax, per lb. 6.5 6d 2f 5sp 2cp Chair 4 4d 3sp 2cp Chest 6 6d 4sp 8cp " large, for cloTHes 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp Coffer (sTRongbox) 12 1s 9sp 6cp Cup, earTHenware 0.25 1f 2cp " glass 2.5 2d 2f 2sp Ewer, metal (brass" pewter") 6 6d 4sp 8cp Knife, eating 2 2d 1sp 6cp MatTRess, sTRaw 2 2d 1sp 6cp Mirror, silvered 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp Padlock 12 1s 9sp 6cp Pillow 1 1d 8cp Plate, earTHenware 0.25 1f 2cp Pot, cooking, ceramic 0.5 2f 4cp " brass, large 12 1s 9sp 6cp Sheet, linen 4 4d 3sp 2cp Stool 3 3d 2sp 4cp Towel 6 6d 4sp 8cp Table 6 6d 4sp 8cp Information and InsTRuction Books, per pecia 9.5 9d 2f 7sp 6cp Book rental, per pecia per year 1 1d 8cp (a pecia is approx.7,500 words, THe Bible is about 100 pecia) Fencing insTRuction, per monTH 120 10s 9gp 6sp Tuition, monastery school, per year 480 L2 38gp 4sp ", private schoolmaster 160 13s 4d 12gp 8sp ", University, basic courses 480 L2 38gp 4sp " " fashionable lecturers &c 1200 L5 96gp Livestock Capon 2 2d 1sp 6cp Calf, weaned 10 10d 8sp Cow 72 6s 5gp 7sp 6cp " good milker 120 10s 9gp 6sp Duck 1 1d 8cp Donkey or mule* 280 L1 3s 4d 22gp 4sp Falcon, TRained gerfalcon 48 4s 3gp 8sp 4cp " TRained goshawk 60 5s 4gp 8sp Fowl (hen) 0.5 2f 4cp Goose 3 3d 2sp 4cp Horse, riding hack (minimum costs) 300 L1 5s 24gp " pony* 300 L1 5s 24gp " TRained for horse-archer 480 L2 38gp 4sp " draught horse 1200 L5 96gp " palfrey 1680 L7 134gp 4sp " hunter* 2100 L8 15s 168gp " TRained desTRier 9600 L40 768gp Ox 108 9s 8gp 6sp 4cp Pig (in breeding counTRy) 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp " (in a large city) 36 3s 2gp 8sp 8cp Pigeon 0.25 1f 2cp Sheep (in breeding counTRy) 10 10d 8sp " (in a large city) 17 1s 5d 1gp 3sp 6cp Precious items Necklace, gold 80 6s 8d 6gp 4sp " pearl 282 L1 3s 6d 22gp 5sp 6cp Ring, gold setting wiTH diamonds 1,800 L7 10s 144gp " gold setting wiTH ruby 320 L1 6s 8d 25gp 6sp Spoon, silver 28 2s 4d 2gp 2sp 4cp Provisions Ale, per gallon 0.5 2f 4cp Bacon, per side 9.5 9d 2f 7sp 6cp Bread, 1 loaf (24 oz") 0.25 1f 2cp Cider, per tun 60 5s 4gp 8sp Cheese, retail, per lb 2 2d 1sp 6cp " whole, 80 lb 40 3s 4d 3gp 2sp Eggs, per dozen 0.5 2f 4cp Fish, herrings, per dozen 1 1d 8cp " Pike, whole, 3" long 80 6s 8d 6gp 4sp " Sturgeon, per barrel 396 L1 13s 31gp 6sp 8cp Fruit, figs, per lb 1.5 1d 2f 1sp 2cp " pears, (30) 1 1d 8cp " pomegranate, 1 only 6 6d 4sp 8cp Gingerbread, per lb 36 3s 2gp 8sp 8cp Grain, barley, per quarter 22 1s 10d 1gp 7sp 6cp " oats, per quarter 16 1s 4d 1gp 2sp 8cp " wheat, per quarter 38 3s 2d 3gp 4cp Ham, whole 16 1s 4d 1gp 2sp 8cp Onions, 1 bushel 8 8d 6sp 4cp ParTRidges, per brace 4.5 4d 2f 3sp 6cp Raisins, per lb 2 2d 1sp 6cp Salt, per bushel 3 3d 2sp 4cp Spices, per lb up to 168 14s 13gp 4sp 4cp Sugar, per lb 12 1s 9sp 6cp Wine, fine claret, per tun (252 gal.) 480 L2 38gp 4sp " best, per gallon 4 4d 3sp 2cp " max 5 5d 4sp " cheapest, per gallon 2 2d 1sp 6cp To feed a lord, per day 7 7d 5sp 6cp " a squire " 4 4d 3sp 2cp " yeoman " 3 3d 2sp 4cp " groom " 1 1d 8cp Services Armour, clean & de-rust 5 5d 4sp " overhaul & varnish 16 1s 4d 1gp 2sp 8cp Carriage, annual maintenance 12 1s 9sp 6cp " max 36 3s 2gp 8sp 8cp Cesspit, empty out 80 6s 8d 6gp 4sp Courier, 1 horse, per 50 km or day 12 1s 9sp 6cp " 2 horses, per 100 km or day 18 1s 6d 1gp 4sp 4cp Ferry, river crossing for man & horse 1 1d 8cp Guide, for one night 1 1d 8cp Milling grain, per quarter 1 1d 8cp MinsTRel, to play at an inn 1 1d 8cp " Christmas gig at manor house 36 3s 2gp 8sp 8cp Stabling & care, warhorse, per day 5.25 5d 1f 4sp 2cp " foal " 1.5 1d 2f 1sp 2cp Stationery Parchment, folio, per leaf 0.5 2f 4cp Vellum " 1.25 1d 1f 1sp Wax, sealing, per lb. 2 2d 1sp 6cp Tools and hardware Anvil 240 L1 19gp 2sp Armourer"s tools, complete 3,324 L13 17s 265gp 9sp 2cp Auger 3 3d 2sp 4cp Axe 5 5d 4sp Barrel 3 3d 2sp 4cp Bellows, large (for forge) 240 L1 19gp 2sp Bucket 4 4d 3sp 2cp Canvas, 25 yards 80 6s 8d 6gp 4sp Chisel 4 4d 3sp 2cp Loom and TReadle 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp Pick* 1.5 1d 2f 1sp 2cp Plough 36 3s 2gp 8sp 8cp Rope, light, per faTHom 0.5 2f 4cp Sand barrel (for cleaning mail) 9 9d 7sp 2cp Saw, hand* 12 1s 9sp 6cp Saw, cross-cut* 30 2s 6d 2gp 4sp Shovel* 1.5 1d 2f 1sp 2cp Spade 1.5 1d 2f 1sp 2cp Spinning wheel (late) 10 10d 8sp Vat 4 4d 3sp 2cp Vise 160 13s 4d 12gp 8sp Yoke 16 1s 4d 1gp 2sp 8cp Vehicles Barge 2,400 L10 192gp Boat, 10" sailing 78 6s 6d 6gp 2sp 4cp Carrack* 910 L3 15s 10d 72gp 8sp Carriage* 320 L1 6s 8d 25gp 6sp Cart, iron-bound 48 4s 3gp 8sp 4cp ", wooden (unfit for long TRips) 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp Cutter* 95 7s 11d 7gp 6sp Dray/waggon, iron-shod wheels 120 10s 9gp 6sp Galley, 40-oared* 8,480 L35 6s 8d 678gp 4sp " 80-oared & masted* 14,896 L62 1s 4d 1191gp 6sp 8cp Wages & Incomes Labourer, per day 1.25 1d 1f 1sp Craftsman, per day armourer min 5 5d 4sp " max 6 6d 4sp 8cp carpenter 3 3d 2sp 4cp mason 4 4d 3sp 2cp weaver 2.5 2d 2f 2sp apprentice carpenter 1.75 1d 3f 1sp 4cp apprentice armourer 3.75 3d 3f 3sp Landowner, per year " knight min 7200 L30 576gp " max 72000 L300 5760gp " baron or abbot min 48000 L200 3840gp " max 120000 L500 9600gp " earl/count or bishop min 96000 L400 7680gp " max 2640000 L11000 211200gp " King (of England) 7200000 L30000 576000gp Mercenary, per day Archer 3 3d 2sp 4cp " mounted 6 6d 4sp 8cp Knight banneret 48 4s 3gp 8sp 4cp Knight 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp InfanTRyman, armoured 6 6d 4sp 8cp Man-at-arms, mounted 12 1s 9sp 6cp Squire 12 1s 9sp 6cp Priest (in a chanTRy), per year 1,120 L4 13s 4d 89gp 6sp Servant, per year (plus bed & board) " squire min 160 13s 4d 12gp 8sp " max 240 L1 19gp 2sp " carter, porter, groom, falconer, messenger, etc. min 60 5s 4gp 8sp " max 104 8s 8d 8gp 3sp 2cp " indoor and kitchen min 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp " max 48 4s 3gp 8sp 4cp " boys and pages min 12 1s 9sp 6cp " max 72 6s 5gp 7sp 6cp Weapons Swords Dagger* 3.5 3d 2f 2sp 8cp Main gauche* 7 7d 5sp 6cp Short sword* 14 1s 2d 1gp 1sp 2cp Falchion 12 1s 9sp 6cp Scimitar* 20.5 1s 8d 2f 1gp 6sp 4cp Tulwar* 22 1s 10d 1gp 7sp 6cp Rapier* 12 1s 9sp 6cp Sabre* 14 1s 2d 1gp 1sp 2cp Broadsword* 17 1s 5d 1gp 3sp 6cp Estoc* 22 1s 10d 1gp 7sp 6cp Hand & a Half* 29 2s 5d 2gp 3sp 2cp Claymore* 27.5 2s 3d 2f 2gp 2sp Two-handed sword* 34 2s 10d 2gp 7sp 2cp Hafted weapons Hand axe 5 5d 4sp Battle axe* 7 7d 5sp 6cp Great axe* 10 10d 8sp Giant axe* 13 1s 1d 1gp 4cp Crude club* 0.25 1f 2cp War club* 1 1d 8cp Torch 0.25 1f 2cp Mace* 5 5d 4sp Giant mace* 13.5 1s 1d 2f 1gp 8cp War hammer* 5 5d 4sp War pick* 7 7d 5sp 6cp Flail* 5 5d 4sp Morningstar* 7 7d 5sp 6cp Mattock* 6 6d 4sp 8cp Quarterstaff* 0.25 1f 2cp Sap* 0.75 3f 6cp Pole weapons Javelin* 1.25 1d 1f 1sp Spear* 3.5 3d 2f 2sp 8cp Giant spear* 7 7d 5sp 6cp Pike* 5 5d 4sp Lance 6 6d 4sp 8cp Halberd* 5 5d 4sp Poleaxe* 7 7d 5sp 6cp TRident* 7 7d 5sp 6cp Glaive* 5 5d 4sp Giant glaive* 10 10d 8sp Missile weapons Sling* 1.25 1d 1f 1sp Short bow* 14.5 1s 2d 2f 1gp 1sp 6cp Long bow 18 1s 6d 1gp 4sp 4cp Composite bow* 21.5 1s 9d 2f 1gp 7sp 1cp Giant bow* 57.5 4s 9d 2f 4gp 6sp Crossbow 60 5s 4gp 8sp Cranequin for above* 40 3s 4d 3gp 2sp SpearTHrower* 1.5 1d 2f 1sp 2cp Blowgun* 2 2d 1sp 6cp Ammunition Arrows (longbow), (24) 3 3d 2sp 4cp Bolts (crossbow), (20) 6.25 6d 1f 5sp Bullets, lead (sling), (8) 1 1d 8cp Entangling weapons Net* 3 3d 2sp 4cp Bolas* 4.5 4d 2f 3sp 6cp Whip* 7.25 7d 1f 5sp 8cp Anachronistic weapons Cestus* 5 5d 4sp Garotte* 2 2d 1sp 6cp Shields Buckler* 1.75 1d 3f 1sp 4cp Small round shield* 2.75 2d 3f 2sp 2cp Large round shield* 3.5 3d 2f 2sp 8cp Kite shield* 5 5d 4sp Tower shield* 6.75 6d 3f 5sp 4cp Main gauche* 7 7d 5sp 6cp Legal privileges Apprenticeship, guild of carpenters 12 1s 9sp 6cp " company of mercers 24 2s 1gp 9sp 2cp Freedom (of a city) min 40 3s 4d 3gp 2sp " max 240 L1 19gp 2sp Marriage licence (for serf) min 12 1s 9sp 6cp " max 160 13s 4d 12gp 8sp Membership, guild of carpenters 40 3s 4d 3gp 2sp " company of mercers 240 L1 19gp 2sp " oTHer guilds min 80 6s 8d 6gp 4sp " max 720 L3 57gp 6sp Nobility, patent of 30,000 L125 2400gp Here's a better formatted version of your list. I've included THe Fantasy Hero coinage as well - THey have a comparison for daily labour wage, such THat one penny and a farTHing = 1 sp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted March 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages I like the list a lot, but I think you should have some sort of legend/conversion chart for your coinage. For example, I know how many shillings per pound, that a shilling is (d) and a pound is (L), but how 'bout the rest of the numbers & letters? I think that should be at the top of the page...or is there a reference somewhere else? In the first post. But I will put it on the high fantasy listing as well. Shillings (s), Pennies (d), Farthings (f) 4 Farthings in a Penny. 12 Pennies in a Shilling. 20 Shillings in a Pound. Technically though, they would just snap a penny into halves and quarters for hapennies and farthings. It should come naturally to USA citizens - you're still using miles and inches after all (same Imperial system) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agemegos Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Very nice! Thank you. There used to be a fair number of copies in different places around the 'Net, but they all seem to have vanished. I would like to incorporate you price list into my more historical one if possible. I would feel flattered. Knock yourself out. I've not yet satisfactorily worked out the conversion rate between fantasy coinage (gp) and historical coinage. It's very difficult to base it on average daily wage - because fantasy settings rarely have them, or have them consistently, or even acknowledge that the occupations they have listed are complete guesses and inconsistent. This is an inherently difficult thing to do, because most fantasy game price lists are made up at complete guess, or at best with an eye to game balance rather than to making any sort of economic sense. The really remarkable things that you discover when researching historical prices are: * That food was amazingly cheap: there just weren't coins small enough to buy what we now consider normal retail quantities. * That clothes were amazingly expensive: before the Industrial Revolution, when cloth was hand-woven, even a simple garment represented many hours of work. * That the relative price of horses rose drastically from the beginning to the end of the mediaeval period: grazing land was ample and free in AD 1100, by AD 1340 it was scarce. * That the relative price of metalwork fell drastically from the beginning of the mediaeval period to the end: the price of iron weapons and armour in terms of labour halved from 1100 to 1450. * That mail was in fact more expensive than plate: knights in the early mediaeval wore mail because that was what was available, they switched to plate later as the ironworking techniques improved, and plate gradually became available in ever-more-complex shaped pieces (thus allowing plate armouring of limbs and joints. Mail was never worn as a cheap alternative. It is very interesting that in the early mediaeval period the chief expense of a knight's equipment was his frightfully expensive mail coat: his horses were fairly cheap. Three hundred years later his plate armour was comparatively much cheaper, and his horses were the chief expense of his outfit. One result is that you have to acknowledge the sweeping economic change that occurred duringt he mediaeval period, and ask yourself what sort of mediaeval economy, what kind of mediaeval society, you wish to emulate in your fantasy setting. An early mediaeval economy in which forest-fattened pork was the staple of diet, labour scarce, land free for the cost of clearing it, livestock cheap, and the ranks of the knighthood open. Or a late mediaeval economy in which porridge or bread is the staple of diet, land scarce, labour available in excess, livestock expensive, and society much more rigid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Of course the real complicating issue here is magic, which is in essence technology that pushes one out of the medieval period. My own view on most systems of magic is to picture what would have happened to the industrial revolution without fossil fuels such as coal and oil. The reason I go that way is that under most systems of magic, one is limited in effect to "human power", what an individual or a group of individuals flexing their mystic muscle can do. The sacrifice of animals is analogous to using animals for mechanical power, after a fashion. In short, you can build very sophisticated machinery but to some extent you're still limited to a very narrow range of power supplies. That limits to the extent that machinery is built, or in this case, magical items are created. Magicians would be constantly looking out for sources of energy, terrestrial, celestial and other, with which to drive their enchantments. The bright side is that it more or less preserves the medieval feel. The poor are not going to see much in the way of magic. Every bit of mystical power in general goes to the upper class with some spillover into the middle class. It's very doubtful any enchanted items would automate farming in any way. The normal shift for labor from the farms is the factories, but with energy being limited to humans and animals, it's not clear that such factories would be particularly cost effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agemegos Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Curufea: I have been reading Christopher Dyer's Making a Living in the Middle Ages. I am finding it rather dull on the whole, but I did come across the price of a slave in 9th-century England. This was apparently typically about one pound. For a slave to have a price of only about one year's wages is reminiscent of Classical Greece rather than of the Antebellum South of the USA. And it suggests that slaves were either just about free for the rounding up or else were not very remunerative. The fact that slavery petered out (slaves were converted to serfs, or sometimes freed outright) in England in the 10th to 11th centuries suggests the latter. Wide-spread records of slaves owning land and goods suggest reinforce the conclusion, and suggest that slaves were not very remunerative to their owners because their owners had only limited real power to sequester their production. The English currency was not significantly debased from Saxon times to the High Middle Ages (though the excellent standard that the Saxons maintained by frequent re-mintings was not maintained), but the value of silver sensibly declined as the product of siler mines accumulated silver faster than population grew. This 20s of 850 would be equivalent no more than about 25s in teh 'epoch of 1200' prices I gave earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted April 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages There is also the problem of some of the sources I'm using for the Western Shores pricelist are from the later middle ages - several hundred years later. Mainly because of the fantasy nature of the setting allows for varying technology levels to co-exist. Slavery ties in with the indentured servitude and wergild legal system of the Dark Ages, which later developed into serfs and feudalism. It's great for an historic game, but I won't be using in much for the WS setting. Well, not in every nation, anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Most Impressive. That's a serious amount of work. For a look at a game system where magic exists, yet it's +still+ a Medieval setting, take a look at Chaosium's _Pendragon_ (assuming it's still in print.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted April 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages What I will do (and I'll start a separate thread for it) is create a fantasy currency converter as well. Which will do some of the major roleplaying systems and my WS settings ones. You won't get identical pricelists - because most roleplaying systems aren't consistent - horses are cheap or expensive, metal is easy to come by, or whatever. In man cases I think they determine their pricelists in an arbitrary manner - or just convert a modern catalogue and forget we have industralisation and mass production. But, be that as it may - a converter that can give a rough idea of the equivalents of different systems would be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages What I will do (and I'll start a separate thread for it) is create a fantasy currency converter as well. Which will do some of the major roleplaying systems and my WS settings ones. More coolness! You won't get identical pricelists - because most roleplaying systems aren't consistent - horses are cheap or expensive, metal is easy to come by, or whatever. In man cases I think they determine their pricelists in an arbitrary manner - or just convert a modern catalogue and forget we have industralisation and mass production. But, be that as it may - a converter that can give a rough idea of the equivalents of different systems would be useful. Even in a Medieval economy, prices fluctuate. The Law of Supply and Demand exists. The principle of Marginal Utility exists. Etc. The best any static price list can do is model an idealized stable state economy where goods and services have their "expected" availablity and value relative to each other. This is valid for about an instant. As soon as Trade starts happening, as soon as the environment (weather, politics, health issues, etc) is allowed to become dynamic prices start fluctuating. And should. Easier to obtain or less valued goods given the situation become less expensive. Harder to obtain or more valued goods given the situation become more expensive. Best place to start might be to figure out what a "typical" economy of a given size needs for goods and services per capita per day. Base your price list on this and then have guidelines as to how things change given certain factors.... ...hmmm. Might be an interesting piece of code to write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Re: Medieval Wages Any decent rules of thumb for how a good or bad harvest can affect food prices? For that matter, what constitutes a good or bad harvest in general? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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