Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

[JamesG]

I’ve been thinking about how the bonuses (or penalties) to OCV/DCV granted by combat skill levels or maneuvers last until the start of the character’s next phase. Barring an Abort of course, which cancels out any prior maneuver bonuses/penalties and replaces them with those generated by the aborted to maneuver and allows for the reassignment of CSLs.

 

So if a Speed 6, DEX 20 character Martial Dodges and puts two All Combat skill levels into DCV on segment 2, he will be +7 to his DCV until DEX 20 of segment 4. At least this is my understanding of the rules in FRED and the old FAQ. I don’t have Revised, so if anything has changed there regarding this, please set me straight.

 

The potential issue I have with this is it allows a lower DEX character to gain a major tactical advantage over a higher DEX character by doing a CV flip-flop. For instance, suppose HighDexMan attacks LowDexMan in segment two (assume both are Speed 6). LowDexMan aborts to Dodge and puts his CSLs into DCV. In segment four, if HighDexMan attacks on his DEX, LowDexMan still has the DCV benefit from his segment two action. Then on LowDexMan’s DEX, he can ‘flip’ all his CSLs to OCV and attack with a high OCV maneuver. HighDexMan can’t abort to a defensive posture since he already acted that segment, and LowDexMan knows he can abort to a defensive posture by the time HighDexMan can attack again.

 

Now, HighDexMan can always hold his action until LowDexMan’s phase comes up, but that kind of defeats the purpose of having the higher initiative. And then he needs to win a contest of DEX rolls in order to act first. And if instead of HighDexMan, he’s ModerateDexWithLotsOfLighningReflexesMan he’ll probably lose that contest. Lastly, holding like this is entirely meta-game, as it’s not based on holding for an in game event, it’s holding until a game mechanic kicks in.

 

My first thought was to change it so the CSL/Maneuver mods end at the beginning of the segment in which the character has his next phase. But this seemed too harsh on low DEX characters.

 

I was then considering a system whereby if you used any CSLs or Maneuver bonuses to DCV in a segment that you had a phase coming up later, when your phase did come up you would be locked into keeping a DCV bonus of least the same value. While that would work OK for CSLs, it would get a little hairier with Maneuver bonuses. The additional complexity and memory requirements also made this solution less than ideal.

 

I thought about simply allowing a character holding their action until the beginning of a lower DEX character’s phase to automatically win the DEX roll-off. But, like having the bonuses end at the beginning of the segment, that might be too much of a penalty for the lower DEX character.

 

So I’m all the way back to the “by the book†method of allowing HighDexMan to hold until LowDexMan’s phase if he wants to avoid a CV flip-flop, and then the two characters would DEX roll-off to determine who goes first. I would clarify that the roll-off occurs before any actions are declared, so neither the winner nor loser of the roll-off is locked into any course of action. I’d also allow any applicable levels of Lightning Reflexes to function as a bonus to the roll. This type of holding still has the meta-gaming issue, but it seems the most fair and playable.

 

Wow, that was a long post just to get back to basically what the book says. My questions for community are:

 

1) Have you had a problem with players doing the CV flip flop, or am I making much ado about nothing?

 

2) If you have experienced the problem, any particularly elegant solutions I’m missing?

 

Thanks.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

It's generally not a big issue in our games.

 

High DEX is its own reward.

 

There are sometimes tactical advantages to going last, but this can also be achieved by holding phase. In your above example, High Dex guy could have started out with a held phase, waited for Low Dex guy to attack, and dodged. Then on the next phase, he goes first and attacks Low Dex guy. Going last after someone's already acted is also good for setting up haymakers, etc.

 

There is some "gaming the speed chart" that goes on, but I don't think it's that big of a problem.

[pinecone]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

I've only seen this pop up a few times...but I end all action mods at the top of your phase as a matter of course so that may be why I seldom notice it as a problem...I never thought it as a penalty to low dex dude because if he wants to stay dodgey he can freaking abort if he wants too...I've never had anyone voluntarily lower their speed to take advantage of this but I once had someone threaten to do so (with a grin) after all if I can add levels and martial dodge at 17 DCV, lowering my speed to two helps me save End......

[Guest taustin]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

I've seen this effect in other games, as well, especially Bushido, where acting more than once per turn wasn't directly linked to high dex.

 

I've never considered it a problem in Hero, because in the scenario you describe - HighDexMan vs LowDexMan - HighDexMan still has two distinct advantages. First, he's got a better chance to hit than the other guy, and second, he's attacking twice as often. Trading away half your attacks to be more defensive seems quite reasonable to me.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

Well, by the same logic I could buy a speedster with a teleport and N-Ray vision, and teleport to the other side of a wall every time it is your turn to attack, and back when I feel like attacking you. I say the low-speed character holds his action until the speedster goes on the offensive, and attacks later in the same Segment as the speedster (I believe you normally can't abort in the same Segment you made an attack). The speedster started off trying some tactics, and the slowster used similar tactics to erase the advantage. Done.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

Hey! Low speed characters are already screwed enough without taking away their defensive capabilities as well!

 

High Dex Man simply has to hold his phase until "Low Dex Guy stops dodging" (and yes, thats an action, not a "mechanic") and he's good to go. Or use an AE attack so Low Dex Guy gets no DCV bonus at all....

[JamesG]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

Hey! Low speed characters are already screwed enough without taking away their defensive capabilities as well!

 

You're the second person who said something about lower SPEED, even though my post had nothing to do with a SPEED difference. In fact the example explicitly stated the characters had the same SPEED. I totally agree that a low SPEED character has enough problems that any minor advantage is not worth worrying about.

 

Others have commented on the advantages of high DEX, which is also somewhat beside the point. Part of this is my fault; I shouldn't have used LowDex/HighDex as my examples, when the issue really is with initiative (DEX + Lightning Reflexes). The higher initiative character may or may not have a higher DEX. I alluded to this with ModerateDexWithLotsOfLighningReflexesMan but I should have been more clear. Of course, that would have made the post even longer.

 

I guess to summarize, my "issue" was that, due to when maneuver/CSL bonuses are defined as ending, a lower initiative character had available a tactic, the CV flip-flip, that was unavailable to a higher initiative character.

 

Acknowledged, this isn't a major issue, and any 'solution' I came up with was worse than the problem.

 

High Dex Man simply has to hold his phase until "Low Dex Guy stops dodging" (and yes, thats an action, not a "mechanic") and he's good to go.

 

You know, looking at it this way, it does alleviate my concerns about how that tactic is meta-gaming. Now if I can just get the players to say it that way instead of saying “I hold until his phase starts.†Of course getting players to avoid gamespeak when describing their actions is a whole problem unto itself, outside the scope of this discussion.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

Mechanically, your arguments are sound. However, the ability to act first has always been a double edge sword.

 

Just because you can does not always mean that you should. The tactical logic behind attacking first assumes that you have better than average chances to both hit and incapacitate your target. If either objective is in doubt it's always safer to 'play possum' and see what the target does first.

 

Who strikes first is very important in mechanized military engagements since lethal force and enhanced targeting are usually in use. This is not always the case in character vs. character combats though.

 

more on this later...

 

HM

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

You're the second person who said something about lower SPEED' date=' even though my post had nothing to do with a SPEED difference. In fact the example explicitly stated the characters had the same SPEED. I totally agree that a low SPEED character has enough problems that any minor advantage is not worth worrying about.[/quote']

 

Actually, it has somewhat to do with the Speed issue, because this situation is really only going to apply to characters who are either the Same SPD, or the defending character is of lower SPD than the attacker.

If the defending character is of higher SPD than his attacker, his phase will come sooner and thus, he will lose his Dodge bonus when it comes time for the character with the higher initiative to attack, unless he use another one of his phases to dodge, or attack immediately, then on the next segment abort to dodge. (which is a tactic that high SPD characters should use often. Spiderman does!)

 

Others have commented on the advantages of high DEX, which is also somewhat beside the point. Part of this is my fault; I shouldn't have used LowDex/HighDex as my examples, when the issue really is with initiative (DEX + Lightning Reflexes). The higher initiative character may or may not have a higher DEX. I alluded to this with ModerateDexWithLotsOfLighningReflexesMan but I should have been more clear. Of course, that would have made the post even longer.

 

This is why I've always liked Lightning Reflexes. Allows you to build a characther who is lightning quick in combat but not necesarily an Olympic class Gymnast.

 

I guess to summarize, my "issue" was that, due to when maneuver/CSL bonuses are defined as ending, a lower initiative character had available a tactic, the CV flip-flip, that was unavailable to a higher initiative character.

 

As Hyper-Man mentioned above, this is why Holding one's phase is very important. If the high Dex character holds his phase, he can then use the CSL flip/flop tactic against the character with the lower initiative if he so desires. In fact, the guy with the higher initiative could use a half-phase to move or do something else, then hold his second half-phase. After seeing what the character with lower initiative intends to do, could shift his CSL's appropriatly before attacking.

There are all kinds of ways to eliminate the advantage that lower initiative characters get if one simply thinks for a moment or two.

 

You know, looking at it this way, it does alleviate my concerns about how that tactic is meta-gaming. Now if I can just get the players to say it that way instead of saying “I hold until his phase starts.†Of course getting players to avoid gamespeak when describing their actions is a whole problem unto itself, outside the scope of this discussion.

 

Yeah, thats not easy to do. Especially with long-time gamers who are so used to Gamer-Speak and everyone knows what their talking about. Its easier if you have someone in the group who isn't a heavy roleplayer and they use normal descriptions for their actions.

 

The best way to do that is to only give Surprise maneuver bonuses etc, to those who use descriptive license to describe their characters action and explain why you gave the bonus and emphasize that everyone has chances at such advantages...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

If you hold your phase then any manoeuvre bonuses (and presumably,penalties) go away (5ER 361), so if HD simply delays his action until after LD's, LD loses the advantage of his aborted dodge. LD still gets the advantage of his CSLs, though, unless he decides to reallocate them to attack.

 

Of course there is nothing in theory to prevent HD attacking with an all out offensive manoeuvre on 2, levels on OCV, LD dodges and allocates skills to defence and HD misses. HD is at a DCV penalty for his attack but that goes away on his DEX on 4 and at that point he can shift his own CSLs to DCV, hold a phase to see what LD is doing then flip his own CSLs to OCV*.

 

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, so I've not seen it as a problem in practice.

 

Can I also suggest the use of the skill: Analyse. I use a modified version (don't really like the one in the book) - on a successful roll by 0 or 1 you can say if the opponent's current OCV or DCV is higher OR how many levels the opponent has OR what sort of martial arts he uses and how good he is (points in martial arts). Beat the roll by 2 or 3 and you can say what the current OCV OR DCV is OR how any levels are distributed OR what manoeuvre is being used next. Beat it by 4 or 5 and you get current OCV, DCV and manoeuvre.

 

The roll is always opposed and runs on:

 

(your base OCV + any levels in the skill or PER) v (opponent's base OCV+1 per martial arts manoeuvre+1 per CSL (3 point and above only)).

 

You can use Martial Arts KS as a complimentary skill. If you fail the roll by 2 or more you can not use it against that opponent for the rest of the combat.

 

*I've only just thought of this multiple level swapping tactic and I can't see anything to prevent it being done as a zero phase action wehnever you hold an action. Seems wrong to me though...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

This issue came up once in my game. Actually, it comes up all the time, but a player only said "hold on a minute, I'm faster than he is!" once. All I said is "just becuase you have the higehst DEX, you aren't forced to act first. You can choose when to act, and so far you have been hasty, impatient and headstrong, which is almost always tacticly unsound." The player nodded and said "yeah, huh..." and decided that acting that way was for the most part in character and stopped complaining when it happened.

 

As an additional note, when the players are the ones with the lower DEXes, they love this rule. When they have the higher DEXes, they frequently hold their Phases.

[zornwil]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

I haven't really seen an issue with it, but it's a good consideration. For my own games, I call actions in a segment simultaneous, but it's tricky as intent is announced pretty much in DEX order, though if anyone stalls I just ask what someone else is doing. If someone is being shot at or such I'll mention it and they know that even if they're about to be pounded they'll get their one action this phase. I resolve the actions accordingly. In some ways this diminishes the probability of what you mention, JG, but not really. I haven't seen an issue in other games or mine.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Issues with when CSL and maneuver bonuses end

 

The potential issue I have with this is it allows a lower DEX character to gain a major tactical advantage over a higher DEX character by doing a CV flip-flop. For instance' date=' suppose HighDexMan attacks LowDexMan in segment two (assume both are Speed 6). LowDexMan aborts to Dodge and puts his CSLs into DCV. In segment four, if HighDexMan attacks on his DEX, LowDexMan still has the DCV benefit from his segment two action. Then on LowDexMan’s DEX, he can ‘flip’ all his CSLs to OCV and attack with a high OCV maneuver. HighDexMan can’t abort to a defensive posture since he already acted that segment, and LowDexMan knows he can abort to a defensive posture by the time HighDexMan can attack again.[/quote']

I just re-read this, and I'm afraid I got a little confused. If LowDexMan aborts in response to HighDexMan's action in Segment 2, he doesn't get an action at all in Segment 4. That's what abort means. You lose an action. So LowDexMan managed to get a higher DCV (hmm...not sure about that losing it when you hold your action thing; I usually keep everything as-is until you abort or actually take your next Phase), but then HighDexMan actually gets to take two actions before LowDexMan's next (one on Segment 4 and one on the higher Dex in Segment 6), and he can certainly decide to hold the second one. I really don't understand where LowDexMan gained an unfair advantage.

 

Oh! Sorry! NVM. I just got myself straightened out.