Drain

[instag8or19]

when you drain dexterity does it effect their ocv and dcv....the book says drains dont effect their figured characteristics...but is ocv and dcv a figured characteristic?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Drain

 

OCV and DCV are not figured characteristics, so DEX adjustments change OCV and DCV (that's the major impact of DEX adjustments, at least IMO).

 

"Figured Characteristics" are PD, ED, SPD, REC, STUN and END, the six stats whose base value is figured from the 8 primary stats.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Drain

 

That brings up an interesting question... is Leaping reduced when STR is Drained? What about Mental Defense when EGO is drained? Neither Leaping or Mental Defense is actually a Figured Characteristic... I've always ruled them as if they were though, and neigher are reduced when STR is Drained, but I'm wondering how other people do it.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Drain

 

That brings up an interesting question... is Leaping reduced when STR is Drained? What about Mental Defense when EGO is drained? Neither Leaping or Mental Defense is actually a Figured Characteristic... I've always ruled them as if they were though' date=' and neigher are reduced when STR is Drained, but I'm wondering how other people do it.[/quote']

Figured characteristics don't get changed when the primary stat is Drained. Check.

 

Are those things you mentioned Figured characteristics? Nope. Check.

 

Would they therefore get reduced when the characteristic on which they depend gets reduced? Yup.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Drain

 

Leaping is a definite YES in my book... its an exertion of the stat, not a figured aspect of it. Same as damage dice... if the target is weaker, he can't lift as much, hit as hard, or jump as far. Mental Def is debatable, but due to the way that its figured, I'd say that no, it's not drained. The formula is very similar to a figured stat, and you'd effectivly gain extra value for your drain against opponents with Mental Def, which doesn't quite feel right.

AS to the original question...

Yes OCV, DCV, and order of action would all be affected by a dex drain.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Drain

 

Mental Def is debatable' date=' but due to the way that its figured, I'd say that no, it's not drained. The formula is very similar to a figured stat, and you'd effectivly gain extra value for your drain against opponents with Mental Def, which doesn't quite feel right.[/quote']

You have to remember, though, that all of that Mental Defense from Ego essentially cost 0 Character Points. A character who has bought no direct MD doesn't get that Ego/5, but one who has spent 1 Character Point on it (barring any Minimum Costs you may have imposed) gets 1+Ego/5. I'm just spiteful enough to say it gets reduced by a Drain on Ego. MD is awefully cheap (compare to Power Defense, Flash Defense, etc. that give no bonus based on any Characteristics). Besides, I'd have to say based on feel that as you become a mental weakling your mental barriers tend to be weakened. It makes sense. Just how I'd handle it.

[Silbeg]

Re: Drain

 

You have to remember' date=' though, that all of that Mental Defense from Ego essentially cost 0 Character Points. A character who has bought no direct MD doesn't get that Ego/5, but one who has spent 1 Character Point on it (barring any Minimum Costs you may have imposed) gets 1+Ego/5. I'm just spiteful enough to say it gets reduced by a Drain on Ego. MD is awefully cheap (compare to Power Defense, Flash Defense, etc. that give no bonus based on any Characteristics). Besides, I'd have to say based on feel that as you become a mental weakling your mental barriers tend to be weakened. It makes sense. Just how I'd handle it.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't say that it is spiteful to say that! I would argue that Mental DEF doesn't keep the state of the character's EGO, it is only figured at the time that the character is targetted by a mental attack. Thus, it would also be refigured if the character's EGO was aided, or, technically, if nothing happened to the character's EGO at all...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Drain

 

Don't forget that Mental Defense is a Defense Power, and therefore is Adjusted at half rate. So I wouldn't reduce MD when EGO is Drained, since it uses a slightly different rule than Draining EGO. You might differ, but the Defensive aspect does need to be taken into consideration somehow.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain

 

If your 60 STR is drained down to zero, it makes no sense that you still have abs of iron, but your PD doesn't change. The 'figured not changed' rule is (IMO) clearly there to make things administratively tidier and easier. I agree that OCV/DCV/characteristic rolls/Mental Defence/Leaping and anything else I've missed that is not specifically a figured characteristic does go down. It makes no sense that figured characteristics don't also reduce, but to do so would make adjustment powers almost unplayable, so it's probably a good thing.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Drain

 

Don't forget that Mental Defense is a Defense Power' date=' and therefore is Adjusted at half rate. So I wouldn't reduce MD when EGO is Drained, since it uses a slightly different rule than Draining EGO. You might differ, but the Defensive aspect does need to be taken into consideration somehow.[/quote']

I think it is. It takes 2 points of Drain to reduce Ego by 1. It takes reducing Ego by 5 (amortized) to reduce Mental Defense by 1. That means you have to do 10 points of Drain to reduce MD by 1. Compare that to draining MD directly, in which case you have to do 2 points of Drain to reduce it by 1.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Drain

 

It's worth mentioning that making MD a figured attribute was mentioned in several 4th Edition supplements; my gaming group has done this for quite some time.

[Guyon]

Re: Drain

 

Has anyone ever drained body?

[Wanderer]

Re: Drain

 

when you drain dexterity does it effect their ocv and dcv....the book says drains dont effect their figured characteristics...but is ocv and dcv a figured characteristic?

 

Sorry to hijack thread, but does Aid/Succor affect figured characteristics ? I worked under the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that Adjustment Powers affected figured characteristics as a rule. Alternatively, can they be made to affect them, too (via Adder/Modifier) ? I'm presently away from my books. If they cannot in any case, I'll have to rethink a character a bit.

[Silbeg]

Re: Drain

 

Sorry to hijack thread' date=' but does Aid/Succor affect figured characteristics ? I worked under the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that Adjustment Powers affected figured characteristics as a rule. Alternatively, can they be made to affect them, too (via Adder/Modifier) ? I'm presently away from my books. If they cannot in any case, I'll have to rethink a character a bit.[/quote']

 

Adjustment powers do not affect figured characteristics. Sorry to say, you'll probably have to rethink that character.

[Wanderer]

Re: Drain

 

Adjustment powers do not affect figured characteristics. Sorry to say' date=' you'll probably have to rethink that character. [/quote']

 

Oh, well. It was that a single Aid/Succor keyed to a common occurence (being in holy ground, in direct sunlight or intense radiation, being enraged) raising all of the related Characteristics and Powers to the next power level is *such* an elegant and simple construct. But without Rec, End and Stun being raised by Aided Primaries, too, numbers do not fit precisely as I wish (because of different Char point costs). I will have to settle for suboptimal design, or add a clunkier set of linked limited Rec/End/Stun raises, too, and/or a limited End reserve. So far for saving space on char sheet (and some points

[Dust Raven]

Re: Drain

 

Sorry to hijack thread' date=' but does Aid/Succor affect figured characteristics ? [/quote']

 

Actually, this is not hijacking it at all. At least not any further that I did .

 

This is why I don't have Drains and such reduce a character Leaping or Mental Defense when STR or EGO is Drained. Because I don't increase them when those Characteristics are Aided either.

 

As for support of whether or not they count as "figured' abilities that aren't affected by a Draining the Char they are figured from, keep in mind that when you Buy your STR 0 END, your Leaping still costs END to use.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Drain

 

Has anyone ever drained body?

Oh yes. Absolutely. It is a good way to create, "permenant," injuries, or ones that take a very long time to heal (you can take a Limitation to make PD or ED apply to the Drain). Also, I like it for some supernatural attacks, such as some non-corporeal monsters' ability to drain the life out of you irrespective of armor or natural defenses.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Drain

 

Oh' date=' well. It was that a single Aid/Succor keyed to a common occurence (being in holy ground, in direct sunlight or intense radiation, being enraged) raising all of the related Characteristics and Powers to the next power level is *such* an elegant and simple construct. But without Rec, End and Stun being raised by Aided Primaries, too, numbers do not fit precisely as I wish (because of different Char point costs). I will have to settle for suboptimal design, or add a clunkier set of linked limited Rec/End/Stun raises, too, and/or a limited End reserve. So far for saving space on char sheet (and some points [/quote']

Wait! Remember that you can apply Advantages to make Adjustment Powers affect more than one Power/Characteristic! Re-read the section on Adjustment Powers. I do this often to have a large set of physical Characteristics boosted by some Power. There's no reason Figured Characteristics can't be included. It's just that they aren't automatically affected by something that adjusts the base Characteristic(s).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Drain

 

Wait! Remember that you can apply Advantages to make Adjustment Powers affect more than one Power/Characteristic! Re-read the section on Adjustment Powers. I do this often to have a large set of physical Characteristics boosted by some Power. There's no reason Figured Characteristics can't be included. It's just that they aren't automatically affected by something that adjusts the base Characteristic(s).

 

We have an Aide character who does this very thing.. I personally think it can be unbalancing - he aided my brick to the point where I was godly in STR and faster than everything but him... very dangerous - if AP Limits aren't applied to it. but then, it's also useful.

 

As for Drain: BODY ... I've used it for a vampire character instead of the HKA:NND as exampled in the Beastiary. I like it to simulate massive quick bloodloss better than the example.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Drain

 

Has anyone ever drained body?

 

Drain BODY makes for a good attack that does a "different" kind of damage. Acids, poisons, desentigration rays and such. Of course, you could do the same with an NND Does BODY attack, but sometimes a Drain is all you need.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Drain

 

If your 60 STR is drained down to zero, it makes no sense that you still have abs of iron, but your PD doesn't change. The 'figured not changed' rule is (IMO) clearly there to make things administratively tidier and easier. I agree that OCV/DCV/characteristic rolls/Mental Defence/Leaping and anything else I've missed that is not specifically a figured characteristic does go down. It makes no sense that figured characteristics don't also reduce, but to do so would make adjustment powers almost unplayable, so it's probably a good thing.

To some extent, I think a lot depends on how the Drain works. If a "Drain Str" pulls energy out of the muscles ("My arms are so tired I can't lift them."), or is actually a mental effect ("I believe my muscles are so tired I can't lift them."), then I could easily see the target still having "abs of iron" and a high PD.

 

Aren't most Drains that actually cause muscles to physically waste away better modeled as "Drain Body"?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain

 

To some extent, I think a lot depends on how the Drain works. If a "Drain Str" pulls energy out of the muscles ("My arms are so tired I can't lift them."), or is actually a mental effect ("I believe my muscles are so tired I can't lift them."), then I could easily see the target still having "abs of iron" and a high PD.

 

Aren't most Drains that actually cause muscles to physically waste away better modeled as "Drain Body"?

 

Hmm. Many years ago, when I was fit, I could tense up my abs to take a punch, but I couldn't after doing 200 sit ups or running a couple of miles: they were too tired. Even if it is muscle fatigue rather than muscle wastage, they still ain't gonna tense up and stop the pain.

 

Anyway, if you want to you could build a STR drain like this:

 

STR drain (with figured)

 

STR drain 10d6: 100 points

On 4 dice +3/4 effects 3 characteristics simultaneously (PD, REC and STUN) (+30)

On 1 dice +1/2 effects 1 charactersistics simultaneously (STUN) (+5)

 

Total cost 135 points.

 

You drain 10d6 from STR, (and in effect) 2d6 fromPD and REC and 5d6 from STUN, thus exactly mimicing the effect of reducing the figured characteristics (and it even takes into account the double cost of the PD)

 

Obviously 135 points is a lot: you can scale it down if you like - it was built this way to make the numbers work out, but 27 points is about 2d6 STR drain WITH appropriate reduction of figured characteristics.

 

Have fun.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Drain

 

Hmm. Many years ago' date=' when I was fit, I could tense up my abs to take a punch, but I couldn't after doing 200 sit ups or running a couple of miles: they were too tired. Even if it is muscle fatigue rather than muscle wastage, they still ain't gonna tense up and stop the pain.[/quote']

 

Sounds more like you had PD +10 Concentration (1/2 DCV, throughout; -1/2)Costs END (-1/2), Increased END (x2; -1/2), Real Cost: 4 (2 END), which is more of a Power than a Figured Characteristic.

 

As for your Drain it all Construct, you'd have to double the dice that affect PD and REC. PD is a defense and is only affected at half value, and REC costs twice as much as STR, PD or STUN.