Does Body, bypassing defences

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Actually' date=' you could design mechanical effects to smash an inanimate object fairly cleanly, and very cheaply if the GM permitted the infamous Killing NND Does Body versus Inanimate Objects. I don't like those effects much; I want my tank smashing Supers to do it through raw might. Still, they're available.[/quote']Good one! I forgot about Killing attacks with no normal defence doing BODY to inanimate objects. That's an important resource.

 

I also forgot about Ranged Killing Attacks (or probably even better Hand-to-hand Killing Attacks) attacking versus the limited defence (AVLD) Flash Defence.

 

Keep them coming!

[OddHat]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

And if you use some of the options suggested for high-powered supering in Galactic Champions' date=' the raw might of most Supers will be quite adequate for tank smashing. [/quote']

 

True.

 

The infamous Double Penetrating 3d6 HKA (6D6 w/ STR) and a three attack Sweep can more-or-less do the job, if the GM were so inclined. And that's one of the less cheesy options.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

True.

 

The infamous Double Penetrating 3d6 HKA (6D6 w/ STR) and a three attack Sweep can more-or-less do the job, if the GM were so inclined. And that's one of the less cheesy options.

Less cheesy?

[OddHat]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Less cheesy?

 

Compared to:

Chronal Accelleration: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 point (1/2d6 w/STR), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), No Normal Defense ([Force Fields, Force Walls, FTL drive, or Teleport Drive]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (40 shots; +3) (39 Active Points)

 

Yes.

[Warp9]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

And' date=' to be fair, there aren't many simple ways to simulate some types of real world and comic book danger (nerve gas, poisons, some types of virus and bacteria) other than allowing attacks that do body while bypassing normal defenses. You could do something with penetrating, but if you're in a campaign where poison gas is in use it's more intuitive to use a gas mask for protection than to pile on the kevlar.[/quote']

Yeah, good point.

 

And it's not like we're talking about bypassing ALL defenses here, just the "normal" ones.

 

And if I can bypass PD in favor of ED, or non-resistant Def in favor of resistant Def, I don't see how this idea is all that radical of a concept.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Compared to:

Chronal Accelleration: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 point (1/2d6 w/STR), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), No Normal Defense ([Force Fields, Force Walls, FTL drive, or Teleport Drive]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (40 shots; +3) (39 Active Points)

 

Yes.

Spell of the Soul Rend: RKA 1 point, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Penetrating (x3; +1 1/2), Autofire (20 shots; +1 1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1); 1 Charge (-2), OAF (Talisman; -1), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Magic Roll (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (24 Active, 5 Real)

 

Since the max scatter for missed Autofire shots is ½ max range (FREd, pg. 248) and range is 0, all shots will hit the hex.

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Compared to:

Chronal Accelleration: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 point (1/2d6 w/STR), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), No Normal Defense ([Force Fields, Force Walls, FTL drive, or Teleport Drive]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (40 shots; +3) (39 Active Points)

 

Yes.

YAYY!! Love it, love it, love it!! Please, please: with extra cheese! (laughing)

 

Another thing I think needs to be discussed in this context is that if you already have high advantages on something (which for this thread means "something deadly") the cost of adding a couple of advantages like Penetrating and Armour Piercing (and Piercing) when that becomes official becomes a much better deal.

 

The whole idea of bypassing defences to go straight to the target (BODY) and pepper it with resistless deadly attacks (preferably Autofire and Reduced Penetration) reinforces itself, in simple arithmetical terms.

 

Hence the sublime beauty of Chronal Accelleration!

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Spell of the Soul Rend: RKA 1 point, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Penetrating (x3; +1 1/2), Autofire (20 shots; +1 1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1); 1 Charge (-2), OAF (Talisman; -1), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Magic Roll (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (24 Active, 5 Real)

 

Since the max scatter for missed Autofire shots is ½ max range (FREd, pg. 248) and range is 0, all shots will hit the hex.

STANDING APPLAUSE!!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

All right, I didn't realize that we were entering the realm of cheese-covered munchkins. If we're playing that game, there are plenty of nasty Advantage combinations that no sane GM would ever let a PC have. Here's one that I actually gave to an NPC villain in one of my games

 

Conduit To The Void: 1d6 Drain BODY, Continuous, Uncontrolled, Reduced Endurance (0 END). Active Cost 30. A small gap in space-time is opened near the target leading to the Void, a dimension of "anti-life" which will visibly suck the vital energies out of the victim. The conduit will follow the target wherever he moves, continuing to drain his life until he's BODYless, but can be blocked by interposing any object of comparable or greater size and mass between the victim and the conduit.

 

Of course for the ultimate in cheese, you just apply Usable As Attack to Powers designed to send the target to where they can't be expected to survive. For example, Extra Dimensional Movement: to the Fires of Hell, or MegaScale Teleport into the sun.

[Gary]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

You can always do the silly:

 

+1 Str Autofire (+1.5) 34 doublings (+17) Area Effect Hex (+.5) 0 End (+1)

 

21 Active Points. Real Points don't matter. All you have to do is hit your own hex. It's impossible to miss since any misses scatter half the distance which would be 0. And the Knockback is approximately 1 AU. IOW enough to knock the Earth into the Sun. A nice cheap planet nuker. The first shot does no Body, but according to the rules, each additional hit adds 1 Body to the damage for knockback purposes.

 

Note that it's cheaper to double the number of autofire shots rather than buying Double Knockback on this construct since it's only a 1/2 advantage rather than 3/4.

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

First, more applause! Blessed are the cheese-makers!

 

And if I can bypass PD in favor of ED' date=' or non-resistant Def in favor of resistant Def, I don't see how this idea is all that radical of a concept.[/quote']What's radical, that is going to the root, is partly that you're thinking about it on those terms, as we all do.

 

A fundamentally (radically) different approach would be to think in terms of simulating comics. From that point of view, gaming the Legion of Super-Pets (Comet, Krypto, Beppo and all) would be basic, while the constructions we are discussing in this thread would be meaningless, because they are purposeful manipulations of the game system, a game system that does not exist in the world being simulated.

 

You reach a point where concreteness is transcended, just as we all do when we let go of needing to think about actual apples or oranges when we do arithmetic not thinking of anything concrete, but just manipulating numbers. We have well and truly reached that point.

 

What is this thing Power Defence, that defends equally against the effects of a mystical curse, a brick trick of breaking your bones, and an Autofire AVLD RKA that has a purely arbitrary and really irrelevant "special effect" tacked on to it. The only honest answer is: it's a game mechanic.

 

The gamishness of the system grows and grows, like deadly ivy, till it kills the tree, that is the spirit of the thing being simulated.

 

Doing BODY, bypassing defences, is about the deadly ascendancy of abstract numerical manipulations. (And to some, I think much lesser, extent, about simulating things like VX gas cheaply in terms of character points.)

 

We're explorers in a new world, where you can't backtrack to things like "what does a wrecking ball weigh anyway?" because the game mechanics are what it is all about.

 

I think it's important to study this, and understand the execution and the implications in detail.

 

The laughter is just a wonderful bonus.

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

The system is not neutral.

 

It strains at a gnat, but swallows camels and whales whole.

 

It pervasively biased in favour of some characters and concepts, and not others.

 

When this is all taken "too far" it's called cheese, but it's the same bias pressing in the same direction when it's not taken "too far" - not that gamemasters will ever agree on what "too far" is anyway. Many concepts that are barred in one campaign rule others.

 

At some point or other we notice leaves moving, then we say there's a "breeze", then later it's a "gale". But if it runs steady from the South at any speed, that's worth noticing.

 

VX Gas Man seems to be doing great, according to lawful Hero calculations. Captain Clean-cut can't keep up. Iron Smasher, a simple, solid Silver Age hero built on equivalent points, who can beat the worst that characters like VX Gas Man and Chronal Accelerator Lass can throw at him and put them away simply does not exist. Hmm.

 

I'm getting ahead of myself, I suppose. Accurate details should come before sweeping abstractions. Let's watch the BODY scores moving in the numerical wind a little more.

[Warp9]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

What's radical, that is going to the root, is partly that you're thinking about it on those terms, as we all do.

To me it is about a language for modeling events. And I'd say the same of physics. Do "Joules of Kinetic Energy" actually exist is the Real World? Or are they mearly an abstraction that we can use in order to put physical events into terms that we can speak about?

 

Yes, all this game system stuff is an abstraction. But, it is just a language to use in order to speak of game world events. And for me, the only motivation of having an NND that does body is so that we can model poisen gas and the like.

 

 

 

A fundamentally (radically) different approach would be to think in terms of simulating comics. From that point of view, gaming the Legion of Super-Pets (Comet, Krypto, Beppo and all) would be basic, while the constructions we are discussing in this thread would be meaningless, because they are purposeful manipulations of the game system, a game system that does not exist in the world being simulated.

You'll have to say more about this concept. I probably don't understand what you are gettting at.

 

But it seems to me that if you are trying to simulate anything you will need to create a "simulator" which can be a program or even a game system. And into order to design the simulator, you'll have to break the process down into abstract concepts.

 

Yes, HERO has moved into areas that have little to do with specifically simulating a comic book, but it is not a comic book game anymore.

[Warp9]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

The system is not neutral.

 

It strains at a gnat, but swallows camels and whales whole.

 

It pervasively biased in favour of some characters and concepts, and not others.

 

When this is all taken "too far" it's called cheese, but it's the same bias pressing in the same direction when it's not taken "too far" - not that gamemasters will ever agree on what "too far" is anyway. Many concepts that are barred in one campaign rule others.

 

At some point or other we notice leaves moving, then we say there's a "breeze", then later it's a "gale". But if it runs steady from the South at any speed, that's worth noticing.

 

VX Gas Man seems to be doing great, according to lawful Hero calculations. Captain Clean-cut can't keep up. Iron Smasher, a simple, solid Silver Age hero built on equivalent points, who can beat the worst that characters like VX Gas Man and Chronal Accelerator Lass can throw at him and put them away simply does not exist. Hmm.

 

I'm getting ahead of myself, I suppose. Accurate details should come before sweeping abstractions. Let's watch the BODY scores moving in the numerical wind a little more.

IMO there is a difference between the way a system builds characters, and how is resolves situations in game play.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

You know, Mr. Blue, reading your last rhapsody leads me to suspect that there's a RPG system-mechanic Stephen Hawking in you struggling to escape.

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

And for me' date=' the only motivation of having an NND that does body is so that we can model poisen gas and the like.[/quote'] Excellent!

 

You'll have to say more about this concept. I probably don't understand what you are gettting at.

More data first. Digging myself in deeper later.

 

But it seems to me that if you are trying to simulate anything you will need to create a "simulator" which can be a program or even a game system. And into order to design the simulator, you'll have to break the process down into abstract concepts.

 

Yes, HERO has moved into areas that have little to do with specifically simulating a comic book, but it is not a comic book game anymore.

That's true.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

You can always do the silly:

 

+1 Str Autofire (+1.5) 34 doublings (+17) Area Effect Hex (+.5) 0 End (+1)

 

21 Active Points. Real Points don't matter. All you have to do is hit your own hex. It's impossible to miss since any misses scatter half the distance which would be 0. And the Knockback is approximately 1 AU. IOW enough to knock the Earth into the Sun. A nice cheap planet nuker. The first shot does no Body, but according to the rules, each additional hit adds 1 Body to the damage for knockback purposes.

 

Note that it's cheaper to double the number of autofire shots rather than buying Double Knockback on this construct since it's only a 1/2 advantage rather than 3/4.

 

Do you have a page reference or FAQ link on that part? I never noticed that one before!

 

HM

[lemming]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Do you have a page reference or FAQ link on that part? I never noticed that one before!

In 5th, it's page 162 right in the description for the Autofire Advantage.

And that example Gary made me

 

edit: And according to the zornwil page reference: 105-106 in 5er. (Your link helps. )

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Of course for the ultimate in cheese' date=' you just apply Usable As Attack to Powers designed to send the target to where they can't be expected to survive. [/quote']"You're Outa Here!" Leaping 1": Usable As Attack (+1), Megascale (+22), 0 END (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2) (25 Active, 25 Real)

 

When used, this will cause the target to make a 1" leap, which thanks to the Megascale is equal to 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 light-years. Can you say "Goodbye"?

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

A Killing Attack versus limited defenses (AVLD) versus Lack of Weakness is ironic and looks likely to be effective.

 

One of the beautiful ironies of the development of Hero is, the more defences there are, the more channels there are to pump Autofire Killing damage directly into the target's BODY. We have Physical Defence, Energy Defence, Mental Defence, Power Defence, Knockback Resistance, Flash Defence and Lack of Weakness, and of course you need resistant defences, hardened defences and so on. And there are infinite ways to define Autofire Killing Attacks to do BODY with no normal defence (NND). And there should be some way to corrupt Damage Reduction so that it too becomes a deadly weakness. But the eight gates of chaos listed as open for AVLD attacks are a great start.

 

I think we can further improve this by having new bypassing attacks - Piercing looks a popular favourite - and saying you need to buy counters such as Hardened Defenses (as many times as necessary) against each one separately, and adding a few more defences. Maybe split Power Defence up and make people buy each aspect of it separately. Teleportation Defence could be a good idea. And Dimensional Movement Defence. Maybe a Change Environment Defence?

 

The more I look at this stuff, the less I hope to get anywhere by way of grand theory and the more the details interest me.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Cloak of Night: Darkness vs. Sight Group, Personal Immunity (+¼), No Range (-½), Req. A Magic Roll (-½), Incantations, Only to Start (-¼) (12 Active, 5 Real)

 

This spell wraps the user in a shroud of impenetrable darkness, making it difficult for enemies to hit them, or to avoid being hit BY them (they can’t see what the user is doing, so cannot dodge effectively).

 

Game Notes: As per FREd, p.283, all opponents are at ½ DCV, ½ OCV for hand-to-hand combat and ½ DCV, 0 OCV for ranged combat..

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

The Nude Bomb: 1 pip RKA, Area of Effect: 32" Radius (+2), Autofire 10 shots (+2), Penetrating x2 (+1), Affects Desolid (+½), No Range (-½), No Knockback (-¼), 1 Charge (-2), OAF Bomb (-1), Gestures: Break bomb against solid surface (-¼), Only vs. non-living (-1) (32 Active, 5 Real)

 

Not only will this leave everyone in the area naked, but it's a pretty effective focus killer/remover as well.

 

Note this one does not have Personal Immunity...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Stasis Drug: Simulate Death (+13 to roll), Usable As Attack (+1), Extra Time: 5 Minutes (Only to create serum, May take no other actions during prep, -1 ¼), Req. A Biochemistry Roll to Create Serum (-½), OAF Serum Injector (-1), Must Attempt Same-Phase Entry (-1), 1 Charge (-2) (32 Active, 5 Real)

 

A serum that, when injected, causes the body’s functioning to slow to a point that is virtually indistinguishable from death. The amount of time the recipient will be "out" must be pre-determined when the serum is created. Since the serum is based on the extremely potent toxin secreted by a particular species of puffer fish, use of the serum is not without risks. In rare cases the user may suffer an adverse reaction, in which case they will need immediate medical attention or will most likely die.

 

Game Notes: The roll is a (9 +13 - 4 = 18). If the roll is failed (a roll of exactly 18) then proceed as outlined in FREd, p. 65.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Quantum Concussion Blast: 1D6 EB AVLD (+1½ def is Power Defense), Penetrating x2 (+1), Autofire (+1½), 640 shots (+3½), Area Effect: 1 Hex (+½) 0 End (+1), Does Knockback (+¼), Personal Immunity (+¼), No Range (-½) (52 Active, 35 Real)

 

Anybody who doesn't have double hardened Power Defense is going to take 640 Stun. Even if they have double hardened Power Defense, the 640" of Knockback will probably nuke them.

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Cloak of Night: Darkness vs. Sight Group, Personal Immunity (+¼), No Range (-½), Req. A Magic Roll (-½), Incantations, Only to Start (-¼) (12 Active, 5 Real)

 

This spell wraps the user in a shroud of impenetrable darkness, making it difficult for enemies to hit them, or to avoid being hit BY them (they can’t see what the user is doing, so cannot dodge effectively).

 

Game Notes: As per FREd, p.283, all opponents are at ½ DCV, ½ OCV for hand-to-hand combat and ½ DCV, 0 OCV for ranged combat..

Oh yeah, Good job!

 

This is the first step toward Black Blob Syndrome, which I discovered as a gamemaster in Superworld (the first game I ever bought and ran) before I discovered the wonderful Rule of No!, and also before I discovered that you should never have non-player characters being cooler than player characters by doing something you wouldn't want the player characters to do - more, and with nastier applications in mind.

 

You should definitely make it silence against sound too. This lets the character be superior to all stealth merchants while not bothering with the sneaking stuff, it shuts down sonar (which I had as common) and some other senses, and mainly it stops all the victims getting off any brave dying soliloquies - they open and close their mouths - oh so briefly - in vain. No dramatic send-off for YOU!

 

Oddly, the same character that mastered that was a killing by bypassing defences merchant, with a sword that did 5d10 and ignored all armour. Rapidfire - slice and dice!

 

The same ideas and patterns crop up over and over, even across game systems, though different systems can be more or less hospitable to the classic killing patterns.