Does Body, bypassing defences

[OddHat]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

The Nude Bomb: 1 pip RKA, Area of Effect: 32" Radius (+2), Autofire 10 shots (+2), Penetrating x2 (+1), Affects Desolid (+½), No Range (-½), No Knockback (-¼), 1 Charge (-2), OAF Bomb (-1), Gestures: Break bomb against solid surface (-¼), Only vs. non-living (-1) (32 Active, 5 Real)

 

Not only will this leave everyone in the area naked, but it's a pretty effective focus killer/remover as well.

 

Note this one does not have Personal Immunity...

 

That one will take out the building. Outside, it will leave a pit.

[Warp9]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

We seem to have disagreement in source material here.

From Champions 4ed, ISBN 1-55806-043-X:

 

p92

"ATTACK VERSUS LIMITED DEFENSE (ALVD) stop!"

(snip)

"ALVD attacks are STUN only, except with special permission by the GM."

 

p96, last paragraph of the description of NND Ad:

"There are many other possible attacks, but they cannot inflict BODY and must have a reasonably common defense (or set of defenses) approved by the GM. The special effects of the NND will often suggest the defenses; a gas attack might be stopped if the character was holding his breath before the attack occured. Normally, a character can't have more than one type of NND attack. (See also Attack Vs. Limited Defenses, above)"

 

Word for word. Bolding mine for emphasis. There is no wiggle room in these paragraphs: NND's can't do Body, AVLD's can +only+ do Body with express permission of the GM (this probably was the major factor in the stop! rating for AVLD).

Try again

 

Look at the opening paragraph under NNDs also on page 96. (they can do BODY with the express permission of the GM).

 

Also on page 262 there are even examples of NNDs that do BODY along with STUN only NNDs

[Ki-rin]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

...

One thing DC Heroes had that Champions does not have is an explicit, seriously and systematically implemented assumption that if an attack will have the effect of taking a character out of the fight, the cost should be the same as doing so by slugfest, even if that results in a very high cost. I like that.

 

In the context of doing BODY, it seems to me that even-handed game design would make it about equally expensive to do similar amounts of BODY by different means. I have no objection to an attack that kills like Joker venom or the Red Skull's favourite toxin; only for even-handedness the super-heroic character point cost (not the off-the-shelf financial cost) of doing BODY by such means should be no cheaper than that of simply bludgeoning the target into injury and ultimately to death. The crunching fists of a character like Orion should be, active point for active point, about as effective as any other means of inflicting injury and death.

 

(Of course some attacks are designed without BODY and often without Knockback not to injure the target. I leave them aside in considering this balance.)

Agree 100%. Given how inferior _DC Heroes_ was in other ways to HERO, it seems kind of shameful we can't get this at least as well as they did.

 

Clearly, no such aspiration has any future in Hero. ("The people! United!" Etc.) What we have instead is a flourishing garden of subtle and resistless BODY-dealing game mechanics, a hot-house of sinister death that I want to explore in something like the spirit of the Addams family, savouring every horror.

Disagree 100%. "the people" agitating for "a hot-house of sinister death" are actually a minority made up of Power Gamers and Rule Rapists. That they happen to be more vocal than the majority doesn't make them any larger of a demographic. Catering to Power Gamers and Rules Rapists would ruin HERO as a viable product in the long run.

 

There is also the pure, scientific "what is this?" element. The resistless BODY-dealing attacks are odd and special enough that it's important just to pool information on how to resolve them. It's often not obvious.

 

One of the reasons why we pay so much attention to combat and so little to the heroes just having dinner is that you can lose characters in combat, or get them injured. This is much, much more true with attacks that do BODY, bypassing defences.

Again, 100% Agree.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

The BIG problem IMHO is that standard HERO combat is not deadly enough.

 

Allowing AVLD and AwNND to Do Body is putting a band-aid on the problem (or Programming By Side-Effect for the programming folks out there). The combat system needs fixing.

 

Once I started using variants of Hit Location, Wounding, and Bleeding, as well as using ideas from GURPS most of the relentless hunt to find ways to do more effective damage per unit time in combat ended.

 

The tricky part is making combat more logically consistent without making it slower than a slug or so deadly as to make it impossible to "simulate" the genre or tell the desired narrative. I'm still not completely happy and am always looking for improvements.

[Warp9]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

The BIG problem IMHO is that standard HERO combat is not deadly enough.

 

Allowing AVLD and AwNND to Do Body is putting a band-aid on the problem (or Programming By Side-Effect for the programming folks out there). The combat system needs fixing.

 

Once I started using variants of Hit Location, Wounding, and Bleeding, as well as using ideas from GURPS most of the relentless hunt to find ways to do more effective damage per unit time in combat ended.

 

The tricky part is making combat more logically consistent without making it slower than a slug or so deadly as to make it impossible to "simulate" the genre or tell the desired narrative. I'm still not completely happy and am always looking for improvements.

(For me anyway) My wanting HERO to have NNDs that do BODY is a totally separate issue from wanting the system to be more deadly.

 

Do you agree that knockout gas should be an NND?

 

If so, how would you do nerve gas? (sounds like and NND that does BODY IMO)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

The BIG problem IMHO is that standard HERO combat is not deadly enough.

 

Allowing AVLD and AwNND to Do Body is putting a band-aid on the problem (or Programming By Side-Effect for the programming folks out there). The combat system needs fixing.

 

Once I started using variants of Hit Location, Wounding, and Bleeding, as well as using ideas from GURPS most of the relentless hunt to find ways to do more effective damage per unit time in combat ended.

 

The tricky part is making combat more logically consistent without making it slower than a slug or so deadly as to make it impossible to "simulate" the genre or tell the desired narrative. I'm still not completely happy and am always looking for improvements.

 

Well, I can offer you an "instant kill" house rule that I've used successfully in a number of past campaigns:

 

If a character takes an amount of BODY damage after Defenses equal to his starting BODY, from a single attack (including coordinated attacks), he must roll successfully vs. his CON score or die immediately from shock.

 

This rule scales well for heroic and superheroic characters - with their higher CON they usually make their roll, and with their higher BODY totals and better Defenses they rarely have to roll at all. On the other end of the scale, when dealing with "mooks" and innocent bystanders, you can just assume that they fail their CON roll without actually making it - good for scenes of mass slaughter.

 

Of course you can make it deadlier by not allowing a CON Roll at all.

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

The Nude Bomb: 1 pip RKA, Area of Effect: 32" Radius (+2), Autofire 10 shots (+2), Penetrating x2 (+1), Affects Desolid (+½), No Range (-½), No Knockback (-¼), 1 Charge (-2), OAF Bomb (-1), Gestures: Break bomb against solid surface (-¼), Only vs. non-living (-1) (32 Active, 5 Real)

 

Not only will this leave everyone in the area naked, but it's a pretty effective focus killer/remover as well.

 

Note this one does not have Personal Immunity...

That's cruel, and I mean that in a good way. Not only are you nude, but if you are a flying hero and some vertical structure like a building (or part of a building) has ceased to exist, you immediately need to fly and rescue falling people. There's a Secret Identity problem coming up!

 

This could work well as a plot device, but I think you might need to suspend Hero game mechanics as soon as the Nude Bomb goes off, otherwise a lot of people might fall to their deaths while everyone struggled with actions and phases. That wouldn't be funny.

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

"If a character takes an amount of BODY damage after Defenses equal to his starting BODY, from a single attack (including coordinated attacks), he must roll successfully vs. his CON score or die immediately from shock." - Lord Liaden (Add a Luck Roll - David Blue.)

 

Copied and pasted to my house rules, with the minor softening change noted. Of course most people don't have dice of Luck either, though I think it's appropriate for many superheroes to.

[lemming]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Hmm, Could make the Nude Bomb only work against non-living matter that is within a certain range of living matter. Say an inch (real, not game). That would save all those poor buildings.

Car steering wheels on the other hand...

[OddHat]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Hmm, Could make the Nude Bomb only work against non-living matter that is within a certain range of living matter. Say an inch (real, not game). That would save all those poor buildings.

Car steering wheels on the other hand...

 

Make it an "H-Type Nanite Bomb"; the nanites are programmed to eat anything other than wood or minerals within 3 cm of human skin. Then make it O End Uncontrolled Continuous and Sticky. Soon, all the world shall be short-haired and nude! BWAHAHAHAHA....ahem. Excuse me.

[lemming]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Make it an "H-Type Nanite Bomb"; the nanites are programmed to eat anything other than wood or minerals within 3 cm of human skin. Then make it O End Uncontrolled Continuous and Sticky. Soon' date=' all the world shall be short-haired and nude! BWAHAHAHAHA....ahem. Excuse me.[/quote']

That would allow us to get around the no nipple restriction in certain threads. Hmm, except for people to have to stay away from cameras and computers for a bit.... Wooden keyboards?

[OddHat]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

That would allow us to get around the no nipple restriction in certain threads. Hmm' date=' except for people to have to stay away from cameras and computers for a bit.... Wooden keyboards?[/quote']

 

Maybe the nanites can learn to avoid hard plastics as well...

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Quantum Concussion Blast: 1D6 EB AVLD (+1½ def is Power Defense), Penetrating x2 (+1), Autofire (+1½), 640 shots (+3½), Area Effect: 1 Hex (+½) 0 End (+1), Does Knockback (+¼), Personal Immunity (+¼), No Range (-½) (52 Active, 35 Real)

 

Anybody who doesn't have double hardened Power Defense is going to take 640 Stun. Even if they have double hardened Power Defense, the 640" of Knockback will probably nuke them.

Very nice in principle, and if I were Steve Long reading this I would be making notes as to a kind of power construction that should be illegal next edition - and should have been illegal in 5th Edition too.

 

But why are we talking about STUN? The aim is to do BODY, bypassing defences. And 640 shots will certainly nuke the target for a ridiculously cheap price (which is admirable in itself - bravo!) but doesn't it sort of offend you that the target gets to apply his or her physical defence against the fatal knockback? I mean, sure, it's going to be ridiculously inadequate and the character will die, but it smacks of KABOOM! KABOOM! is passe. What we want is some pathetic little Autofire ft-ft-ft-ft-ft, or not even that (a blob of silence), defenses get bypassed, and overwhelming damage is applied to naked BODY, as poison poured upon an exposed brain. That's modern style!

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Stasis Drug: Simulate Death (+13 to roll), Usable As Attack (+1), Extra Time: 5 Minutes (Only to create serum, May take no other actions during prep, -1 ¼), Req. A Biochemistry Roll to Create Serum (-½), OAF Serum Injector (-1), Must Attempt Same-Phase Entry (-1), 1 Charge (-2) (32 Active, 5 Real)

 

A serum that, when injected, causes the body’s functioning to slow to a point that is virtually indistinguishable from death. The amount of time the recipient will be "out" must be pre-determined when the serum is created. Since the serum is based on the extremely potent toxin secreted by a particular species of puffer fish, use of the serum is not without risks. In rare cases the user may suffer an adverse reaction, in which case they will need immediate medical attention or will most likely die.

 

Game Notes: The roll is a (9 +13 - 4 = 18). If the roll is failed (a roll of exactly 18) then proceed as outlined in FREd, p. 65.

This, on the other hand, even though it doesn't actually do BODY, is sheer art. It is worthy of Fu Manchu, who would have expendable doctors do the dangerous stuff.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

This' date=' on the other hand, even though it doesn't actually do BODY, is sheer art. It is worthy of Fu Manchu, who would have expendable doctors do the dangerous stuff.[/quote']Thank you, thank you! I originally created a version of this for my gadgeteer to use on downed and dying team-mates or civilians, but it didn't take much to turn it into a "weapon" for use on unwilling targets!

 

As for the "Knockback" thing...yes, I know the object is to get the BODY to the target while bypassing the defenses, but I just couldn't resist posting it. All 640 shots will get applied seperately against the target's defenses, so unless they're an 80-year-old ill-health sort, they won't take any BODY from the EB itself. The Knockback, though...that's going to be dozens or hundreds of dice of damage, and though it's more a matter of the damage overwhelming the defense rather than bypassing it... (shrug)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Mindfire: RKA 1 point, 0 END (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Pentrating x3 (+1 1/2) (22 Active, 22 Real) SFX: the person's own thoughts are in a lethal feedback loop, burning out their synapses.

 

The only "sour" note in this -- for purposes of cheese -- is the fact that you must define some "reasonably common" way of turning off the power. The first thing that came to mind for me is to knock the person out...the special effect is susppose to be their own thoughts doing the damage, so rendering them unconcious should do it. Of course this means that if the character is going to shut off the power themselves, they'll have to beat their head against a wall or bash themselves in the skull with a hammer. I don't think that's too much of a reach, though, because some of the extremely bad sinus headaches I've had have made me want to bash my sinuses with a hammer...how much more would that be a temptation if the pain is in your brain, and it's doing actual damage?!?

[David Blue]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

I like this one. Leave it the way it is.

 

That way you can honestly say: look, I've been moderate, I've been fair about this, there is a reasonably common defence and it's in the target's hands to do the right thing.

 

Keep to the moral high ground!

 

Mental attacks are viciously under-costed for what they can do. The answer is: Mental Defense is cheap. But generally gamemasters are (often) reluctant to allow it to be bought. It's spot defence, it's not playing up and playing the game. Let's keep the burden of guilt where it belongs - on the target of this so-reasonable attack.

 

The reason I'm almost saying that seriously :| is that guilt is the main control mechanism on killer attacks that bypass defences. In game terms they are a fantastic buy, as post after post proves. The limit on them is that they require the gamemaster's permission - which is only what every power and advantage always requires. In other words, it's no real limit at all. There are the goodies, there's the player who's been given a terrific incentive to get to the goodies, and there's the gamemaster, reading the examples in which the goodies are indeed handed out, trying to make up his mind with the aid of advice to be fair yet flexible etcetera..

 

Coming up with a good spiel and a little emotional pressure helps, but so does defining an attack that grabs as much of the cheap killing power as possible - short of provoking a clear "no way".

[Dust Raven]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Spell of the Soul Rend: RKA 1 point, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Penetrating (x3; +1 1/2), Autofire (20 shots; +1 1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1); 1 Charge (-2), OAF (Talisman; -1), No Range (-1/2), Requires A Magic Roll (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (24 Active, 5 Real)

 

Since the max scatter for missed Autofire shots is ½ max range (FREd, pg. 248) and range is 0, all shots will hit the hex.

 

Boo! Hiss!

 

Actually, this is a termally broken build. First, the FAQ ruled (I think it was the FAQ) that when Autofire is applied to an AE attack, the shots that don't hit are just gone and have no affect. Otherwise Autofire would be too great an Advantage even with the additional +1. Second, you've only bought the Power with a single Charge. No matter what the target is only taking 1 point of effect from a single charge.... the Aufofire is wasted.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Mental attacks are viciously under-costed for what they can do. The answer is: Mental Defense is cheap. But generally gamemasters are (often) reluctant to allow it to be bought. It's spot defence' date=' it's not playing up and playing the game. Let's keep the burden of guilt where it belongs - on the target of this so-reasonable attack.[/quote']

 

The Mentalist archtype being one of my favorites, my experience disagrees with this. Granted, those Ego Attacks can be nasty, but only if used right. Even against a target with no Mental Defense, you stand little chance of Stunning them, and they know you shot them and aproximately where you are if you arn't in plain sight. All those advantages of being Invisible are right out the window if you attack someone who's able to warn his friends where you are if you don't take him down in a single shot.

 

The other Mental Powers seem a bit weak to me. Even if you hit, and even if your effect roll succeeds, the target still gets an EGO Roll before the power takes effect and if that's made the entire attack was wasted. It's a shame when you actually roll a 56 on 12 dice to Mind Control the VIPER agent and he makes his stupid EGO roll by 5 on a lucky roll.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

(For me anyway) My wanting HERO to have NNDs that do BODY is a totally separate issue from wanting the system to be more deadly.

 

Do you agree that knockout gas should be an NND?

 

If so, how would you do nerve gas? (sounds like and NND that does BODY IMO)

The first problem is that the base damage system has you either a) take ~6x more STUN than Body, or take The GDA (God D@mn Awful) STUN Lottery of ~(16/6)x= ~2+2/3 more STUN than Body.

 

Many deadly attacks ITRW don't stun you, they kill you before you even feel it. ...But using the base HERO damage system you effectively can't simulate an attack that kills but almost never stuns.

 

"This is meet and good for we are simulating the Heros of yore, not the casual deadly violence of the modern world..." ...whoops... HERO is supposed to be a toolkit for simulating _anything_ now, not just pulp four color comics of the Silver Age. We need a better damage system given the increased range of things we now want to simulate.

 

Better would be to have a base damage system that allows you to buy the amount of STUN and Body done independanty of each other when you create the attack (and to banish constructs like the STUN lottery to the extinction they deserve).

 

Such a damage system would be more in keeping with HERO's "toolkit" nature, simplify the system for creating more accurate simulations of any given attack, and more easily allow GMs to enforce genre-specificity without resorting to complications or fiat as often.

 

As to the specific question regarding nerve gas:

Reading up on nerve gases like VX and then comparing them to Biological agents and other military ordinance makes it unclear that an NND the Does Body is the "best" or "right" way to simulate a nerve gas.

 

Nerve gases can be nasty, but so can many other gases, radiation, etc.

 

Given that ITRW there are other weapons that are similarly fatal and similarly hard to recover from that we don't simulate as NNDs, let alone NNDs that Do Body, why is there a crying need to do so in this case?

 

I suspect it's because "nerve gas" is a "spooky" term to most, so there's a temptation to make it worse that it really is in order to make it live up to the naive reputation. That's fine if that's what you want narratively or gaming wise. OTOH, simulation-wise nerve gas should be just as effective as our simulations of its peers as weapons (radiation, other mass bio-agents, etc), not less so or more so.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Actually Dr Anomaly,the Quantum Concussion Blast you wrote up would cost 640 *5 = 3200 END each time you used it.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Boo! Hiss!

 

Actually, this is a termally broken build. First, the FAQ ruled (I think it was the FAQ) that when Autofire is applied to an AE attack, the shots that don't hit are just gone and have no affect. Otherwise Autofire would be too great an Advantage even with the additional +1. Second, you've only bought the Power with a single Charge. No matter what the target is only taking 1 point of effect from a single charge.... the Aufofire is wasted.

Drat...good point! I don't know what I was thinking about on the "Charges" thing. As for the missed Autofire shots...I'll have to check the FAQ on that one.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Actually Dr Anomaly' date='the [i']Quantum Concussion Blast[/i] you wrote up would cost 640 *5 = 3200 END each time you used it.

I meant to toss 0 END on that, but forget. Darn it!

[Warp9]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

The first problem is that the base damage system has you either a) take ~6x more STUN than Body, or take The GDA (God D@mn Awful) STUN Lottery of ~(16/6)x= ~2+2/3 more STUN than Body.

 

Many deadly attacks ITRW don't stun you, they kill you before you even feel it. ...But using the base HERO damage system you effectively can't simulate an attack that kills but almost never stuns.

 

"This is meet and good for we are simulating the Heros of yore, not the casual deadly violence of the modern world..." ...whoops... HERO is supposed to be a toolkit for simulating _anything_ now, not just pulp four color comics of the Silver Age. We need a better damage system given the increased range of things we now want to simulate.

 

Better would be to have a base damage system that allows you to buy the amount of STUN and Body done independanty of each other when you create the attack (and to banish constructs like the STUN lottery to the extinction they deserve).

 

Such a damage system would be more in keeping with HERO's "toolkit" nature, simplify the system for creating more accurate simulations of any given attack, and more easily allow GMs to enforce genre-specificity without resorting to complications or fiat as often.

Your point above has nothing to do with why I think there should be NNDs that do BODY.

 

If a PC wants to have an attack such as Poisen Gas, or Radiation, that situation is where an NND that does BODY is relevant.

 

As for your other points above:

 

If you want to do a great deal of BODY compared to STUN, try using Limitations. You might think about a reduced STUN mulitplyer for killing attacks. And you could easily put similar limitations on normal attacks. You could try "only does 1/2 of the STUN rolled," or even "does not do STUN."

 

And that is how you do an attack which will kill you without stunning you.

 

 

 

But, getting back to the real issue here. . . .

 

As to the specific question regarding nerve gas:

Reading up on nerve gases like VX and then comparing them to Biological agents and other military ordinance makes it unclear that an NND the Does Body is the "best" or "right" way to simulate a nerve gas.

 

Nerve gases can be nasty, but so can many other gases, radiation, etc.

 

Given that ITRW there are other weapons that are similarly fatal and similarly hard to recover from that we don't simulate as NNDs, let alone NNDs that Do Body, why is there a crying need to do so in this case?

 

I suspect it's because "nerve gas" is a "spooky" term to most, so there's a temptation to make it worse that it really is in order to make it live up to the naive reputation. That's fine if that's what you want narratively or gaming wise. OTOH, simulation-wise nerve gas should be just as effective as our simulations of its peers as weapons (radiation, other mass bio-agents, etc), not less so or more so.

You seem to be making an unwarrented assumption. . . .

 

Nerve Gas was only one example of an NND that does BODY which is given in the book (page 262 of the 4th Edition Book), there are others.

 

I would also include most other poisen gasses as NNDs which do BODY (with the defense being Life Support).

 

I would ALSO include Radiation as an NND which does BODY.

 

And on page 261 of the 4th edition book (The 4th paragraph down, under the heading "chemicals"): All chemical attacks are No Normal Defense attacks that do STUN and BODY damage.

 

So yes, Nerve Gas would really be no more effective than other types of similar attacks (including other Poisen Gasses, Corrosive Chemicals, and Radiation).

 

Finally, to sum it up again: The real reason that I want NNDs that do BODY is in order to simulate attacks like various types of Poisen Gas, or Corrosive Chemicals or Radiation.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Does Body, bypassing defences

 

Better would be to have a base damage system that allows you to buy the amount of STUN and Body done independanty of each other when you create the attack (and to banish constructs like the STUN lottery to the extinction they deserve).

 

There are ways to do just that, and none of them are very complicated. Since most attacks though actually do hurt quite a bit when they injure you, and will probably hurt quite a bit even if they just hit you without any lasting harm (without BODY damage), the damage system for ordinary attacks works just fine. It's when you delve into the realm of "other" stuff like radiation, nerve gas, etc. that you need to look for alternative methods of doing damage.

 

My favorite is Drain. Works great for nerve gas in my opinion (Drain BODY). Granted, I don't know much about real life nerve gas, but I figure if it doesn't actually kill you you'll be fine after a whlie (doubt it's like that in real life, but for the game it works nice, and if not, you can always buy back the recovery time). Also makes good for all those secondary effects that just taking damage never covers (like a loss of coordination or sensation). I like to use it do Drain senses (rather than Flash them, which is really innappropriate for some of these toxins) along with some effects.