Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

The point is that in comics, the shield has protected Cap against a ground zero Nova Blast from the Human Torch without Cap taking a lick of damage. And that Nova Blast would be a heck of an Active Point total.

 

I remember a parody comic from that era. It consisted of a recreation of that exact event- until the torch turned around to see a fireman in full protective suit picking up the shield with tongs and no Cap in sight.

 

The point being is that the comic was silly even for a comic. The reflected heat wave of a Nova Blast from the surroundings would have fried him- shield or no shield.

 

The Armor build for the shield is not for use by writers like Jim Shooter. This much I'd admit. I'll also have to admit that I consider that a very good thing indeed.

 

Badly written examples of comics do not require us to copy them.

 

If however you think Jim Shooter's secret wars was the best thing since sliced bread- then go ahead with whatever you want. We're not on the same page in any event and certainly aren't trying to build the same character.

 

 

PS: Use hit location for determining stun mods. It helps control that problem with kill attacks. You don't even have to apply the rest of the location rules if you don't want.

[CDad]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Maybe he rolled really, really low dice?

 

That one was GM's discretion, IMO. Or writer's fiat.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Originally Posted by Ki-rin

A) has allowed the Red Skull (while in a clone of Steve Rogers' body) to pretend to be Cap, faking that Cap assassinated a US Senator

 

Possible with a Universal Focus

 

 

Originally Posted by Ki-rin

has allowed others to use The Shield and, if they had the characteristics, all of it's abilities with varying amounts of skill.

 

Possible with a Universal Focus

 

 

Originally Posted by Ki-rin

A) It's gifting to and subsequent use by Vance Astro (of the Global Guardians)

 

In comic storyline long after Cap is inactive and dead.

 

 

Originally Posted by Ki-rin

It's use with Cap's permission as a protective device.

 

Possible with a Universal Focus

 

 

Originally Posted by Ki-rin

C) It's protection of Cap (and other people on occasion) when he was (or they were) unconscious or unaware.

 

Possible with a Universal Focus

 

The only thing NOT possible with a Universal Focus (or a dead character given GM permission) is to TAKE IT AWAY FROM FROM CAPTAIN AMERICA FOREVER.

 

That is ALL Independent buys you.

 

Ummm. No. Universal is worth no points as a Limitation, that means that any use of the Focus _must_ be of a short term duration or the character using it is getting abilities they haven't paid for, +and+ there's nothing stopping the original character from making another one.

 

Any focus that can be used for longer than the duration of a combat or >possibly< a specific use during a short adventure is not "Universal". THAT sort of unrestricted use is "Independent". Not "Universal".

 

...and FTR, Cap GAVE Vance The Shield. And trained him in its use. Something that I think Cap never did for anyone else.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Ummm. No. Universal is worth no points as a Limitation' date=' that means that any use of the Focus _must_ be of a short term duration or the character using it is getting abilities they haven't paid for, +and+ there's nothing stopping the original character from making another one..[/quote']

 

The standard focus rules includes an option for unique. That by itself and SPX prevents the making of another.

 

And "Short Term Duration" is also up to the GM to determine.

 

If I decide that is better to have a series of adventure where Cap loses his shield and then quests to retain it instead of having it lost every second or fourth adventure (as some here think the focus limit implies)- That's my decision too. There is nothing preventing me from saving up "short durations" and running them all together if I feel that's best for the campaign and the character in question.

 

Again, the ONLY thing independent buys is the ability to take the SHIELD away FOREVER.

 

Nothing else.

 

 

 

...and FTR, Cap GAVE Vance The Shield. And trained him in its use. Something that I think Cap never did for anyone else.

 

The Guardians of the Galaxy book is 1) an alternative future and not the core Captain America setting and 2) reflected a Captain America who give up his role.

 

Sorry, that doesn't count for anything. At that point it was Vance buying the shield and I couldn't care less how he paid for it.

[Gary]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I remember a parody comic from that era. It consisted of a recreation of that exact event- until the torch turned around to see a fireman in full protective suit picking up the shield with tongs and no Cap in sight.

 

The point being is that the comic was silly even for a comic. The reflected heat wave of a Nova Blast from the surroundings would have fried him- shield or no shield.

 

The Armor build for the shield is not for use by writers like Jim Shooter. This much I'd admit. I'll also have to admit that I consider that a very good thing indeed.

 

Badly written examples of comics do not require us to copy them.

 

If however you think Jim Shooter's secret wars was the best thing since sliced bread- then go ahead with whatever you want. We're not on the same page in any event and certainly aren't trying to build the same character.

 

 

PS: Use hit location for determining stun mods. It helps control that problem with kill attacks. You don't even have to apply the rest of the location rules if you don't want.

 

 

If you decide to cherry pick which Captain America issues to use or ignore, it's your priviledge. However, that event did happen in canon whether you like it or not. Just like Spiderman beating Firelord even though many people try and pretend it never happened.

 

As far as hit locations, it merely shifts the probabilities a bit. It's still fairly easy to get a X4 or X5 stun multiple.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Again, the ONLY thing independent buys is the ability to take the SHIELD away FOREVER.

 

Nothing else.

You are incorrect. The rules says you are incorrect, and frankly leaning on a broken construct like Universal as a counter argument just makes it worse.

 

At this point, I like Universal much less than Independent systems-wise.

 

Independent is well thought out and has a documented cost/benefit structure associated with it. OTOH Universal is a fuzzy GM hand-wave sfx. I'd rather see players use Independent if there's any chance that it's applicable; and that Universal be either fixed or tossed from the system.

 

However, it is clear we are not going to convince each other of anything on this topic, so let's just agree to disagree and move on to more useful conversations?

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

If you decide to cherry pick which Captain America issues to use or ignore' date=' it's your priviledge.[/quote']

 

We are doing conversions of comic characters, this means two things:

 

1. All of us cherry pick. We HAVE to. The comics are NOT consistent, the game system IS

 

2. We certainly have the right to cherry pick. These are our games.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

You are incorrect. The rules says you are incorrect' date=' and frankly leaning on a broken construct like Universal just makes it worse.[/quote']

 

EXACTLY where do they say I'm incorrect?

 

EXACTLY where do they say I can't save up 'short durations'. EXACTLY where do they say I can't define "short duration".

 

As for loaning out the Shield, give me example in the comics (not alternate timelines please) where Cap while STILL Captain America loaned out the shield for something not a "short duration"

 

And once again...

 

NO MATTER WHAT, I will NOT take the shield away from him FOREVER. I CANNOT apply the Independent limit unless I AM willing to do that. Nor is his comic company willing to do that while he's Captain America

[Gary]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

We are doing conversions of comic characters, this means two things:

 

1. All of us cherry pick. We HAVE to. The comics are NOT consistent, the game system IS

 

2. We certainly have the right to cherry pick. These are our games.

 

 

It seems rather inconsistent since the Secret Wars have been referred to throughout this entire thread as an example of Cap losing his shield. Either Secret Wars occurred, or it didn't. It shouldn't have 'sorta occurred'.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

It seems rather inconsistent since the Secret Wars have been referred to throughout this entire thread as an example of Cap losing his shield. Either Secret Wars occurred' date=' or it didn't. It shouldn't have 'sorta occurred'. [/quote']

 

Not everything that a person does is worth keeping, not all of it is worth rejecting.

 

Secret Wars is a good example. On the whole, the series was trash and is noted as such by a vast number of comic fans including myself. But it did have some good points.

 

It was at best... inconsistent. It was in many ways a 12 issue summary of everything that Marvel Comics was at the time.

 

So it's not inconsistent to reference some parts and reject others. It's the nature of the work before us.

 

As I said, if you want the Nova Blast defending Shield- build it. All I'm saying is that isn't my build, my build wasn't intended to recreate that, and I consider such a build to reflect some of the worst in Marvel Comics.

[JmOz]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Ummm. No. Universal is worth no points as a Limitation, that means that any use of the Focus _must_ be of a short term duration or the character using it is getting abilities they haven't paid for, +and+ there's nothing stopping the original character from making another one.

 

Any focus that can be used for longer than the duration of a combat or >possibly< a specific use during a short adventure is not "Universal". THAT sort of unrestricted use is "Independent". Not "Universal".

 

...and FTR, Cap GAVE Vance The Shield. And trained him in its use. Something that I think Cap never did for anyone else.

 

For the record:

 

Cap did not give Vance the shield NOR did he train him in its use (There was ONE comic in which the two were in the Avengers equivelent of the Danger room playing frisbee with Vance's shield, but by that point vance was already proficent)

 

Vance got the shield from a character named Mainfraim but most of us know better as Vision, this was aftr a six issue story arc where they were searching for it (Gardians of the Galaxy 1-6)

 

Cap was long dead at this point

 

The shield is a Universal Focus. Everytime he has lost it for a prolonged point the character has got a reasonable simile relativly quickly (Replica of old shield, Stark engeneired clear one, Energy Shield, from memory)

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

EXACTLY where do they say I'm incorrect?

 

EXACTLY where do they say I can't save up 'short durations'. EXACTLY where do they say I can't define "short duration".

 

As for loaning out the Shield, give me example in the comics (not alternate timelines please) where Cap while STILL Captain America loaned out the shield for something not a "short duration"

 

And once again...

 

NO MATTER WHAT, I will NOT take the shield away from him FOREVER. I CANNOT apply the Independent limit unless I AM willing to do that. Nor is his comic company willing to do that while he's Captain America

Clearly, we disagree on every major point here:

-I've quoted the rules word for word to you. You have chosen to interpret the Independent Limitation in a much more restricted and simplistic manner than HERO does. If "Independent" meant "at some point the GM must make sure the charater loses this item forever", They would have said so and given some guidelines as to what the maximum amount of time a GM should wait before doing so. That IS NOT the official write-up. It's not close to the official write-up. That's "screw the players" and "I'm too lazy and/or unimaginative to enforce this correctly." Fine. Just be honest about it and move on.

 

-There is no recipe for making another of The Shield. ALL non-Independent foci, even Unique Unbreakable Universal ones, have a recipe for replacing them (It's in the rules as part of the costing process). The Shield does not. Therefore it is not a Unique Unbreakable Universal Foci. It, like Excalibur, is Independent.

 

-Your whole bit about "saving up" and "defining" short durations exemplifies what is wrong with Universal and is open to BLATENT abuse. Once again, our jobs as GMs is NOT "screw the players by whatever loopholes we can find in the rules." Nor is it "I'm not telling you what how things work in enough detail that you can make intelligent cost/benefit and risk analysis". The players have a right to better by both standards.

 

-USAgent and Super Patriot. However, that misses the important point.

If "loaning" includes "involuntarily", then multi-YEAR plot arcs where a Focus is actively used against the character whose focus it is falls WAY outside of "Universal". If it was only "Universal", the correct strategy would be to make another one, not try to reclaim the original. (What happens to a Unique Universal Focus in enemy hands when the owner makes a new one? Does it just spontaneously fall to dust?). No matter how long it takes or how painful it is, Cap will attempt to recover The Shield within the restrictions of his moral code. That's NOT a UUF, That's an Independent Focus.

 

Finally, I +AM+ willing to take a character's Independent *mumble* away from them permanently. I'm just not going to guarantee if or when because that's not what the rules say. The rules say I have to make it as much of a restriction on a character as any other combination of Limitations that are (-2), up to and +including+ the possiblity of the character losing the invested XP forever. Unless or until the character buys off the Independent Limitation, that is exactly what I will do and if in the course of events they end up permenently short on XP, well that's the risk they paid for. But it's a +risk+ according to the rules, not a -guarantee-.

 

I can't speak for the Marvel "GMs", but Cap certainly acts like he lives in fear of The Shield being permanently lost or destroyed... ...and THAT means he's paying the proper price for the (-2) Limitation.

 

'Nuff Said.

[JmOz]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

To expand:

 

IF YOU TAKE INDEPENDENT: The shield will be taken, and I make no guarantees on you getting it back, there is a real risk of loosing those points FOREVER, I can almost guarantee by the 10th session SOMETHING will have happened. Now if you get it back from that cool, if not, not my fault, it will depend on what you do in the game. Realising that I will attempt to take those points from you are you willing to play the nerfed character? If not don't put independent on it, if you do and then try to retire the character I have a waiting list of players and I will put you on the bottom of it.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

For the record:

 

Cap did not give Vance the shield NOR did he train him in its use (There was ONE comic in which the two were in the Avengers equivelent of the Danger room playing frisbee with Vance's shield, but by that point vance was already proficent)

 

Vance got the shield from a character named Mainfraim but most of us know better as Vision, this was aftr a six issue story arc where they were searching for it (Gardians of the Galaxy 1-6)

 

Cap was long dead at this point

My Bad and I stand corrected. Vance Astro is -not- the guy Cap trained. My apologies.

 

The Shield is still Independent though

[Force]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

My Bad and I stand corrected. Vance Astro is -not- the guy Cap trained. My apologies.

 

The Shield is still Independent though

 

You still seem to be stuck that you have to be trained to use an independent focus.

 

The rules specifically state that ANY character can use the powers simply by being in possession of the focus.

 

So a 'normal' could take the shield and use all of the powers contained in the focus.

 

How are you going to build that kind of limitation into the shield?

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

To expand:

 

IF YOU TAKE INDEPENDENT: The shield will be taken, and I make no guarantees on you getting it back, there is a real risk of loosing those points FOREVER, I can almost guarantee by the 10th session SOMETHING will have happened. Now if you get it back from that cool, if not, not my fault, it will depend on what you do in the game. Realising that I will attempt to take those points from you are you willing to play the nerfed character? If not don't put independent on it, if you do and then try to retire the character I have a waiting list of players and I will put you on the bottom of it.

THIS is _much_ closer to the way Independent should be enforced according to The Book.

 

The only thing I do differently is too make "will be taken" also depend on what the player does in-game. If the character is already making themself as crazy as they would be if the item was taken protecting against it being taken, then why do I need to take it? They already are paying the price.

 

Of course it isn't that simple, but that captures the main flavor of things.

 

As I said: Dead is once. Torture can be over and over and ...

 

One way or another, players WILL pay for their cost saving Limitations; and if they do it for munchkin reasons or to munchkin extremes, I can promise they are going to wish they had not. But that does not give me the right to be a sadist, just to enforce the rules as fairly as possible.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

You still seem to be stuck that you have to be trained to use an independent focus.

 

The rules specifically state that ANY character can use the powers simply by being in possession of the focus.

 

So a 'normal' could take the shield and use all of the powers contained in the focus.

 

How are you going to build that kind of limitation into the shield?

Anyone who meets the requirements (characeristic minima or whatever) can use all of an Independent item's abilities. Period.

 

How +well+ they can use those abilities is another matter. That is skill, and skill can be learned and taught.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Clearly, we disagree on every major point here:

-I've quoted the rules word for word to you..

 

No you have not. I looked at the 5e revised rulebook before I made the post- there is no such wording in there are any point you've made.

 

There is nothing about a recipe. There is nothing about short durations.

 

I don't have all the books, but I'm well aware of the fact that everything outside the primary book is consider by defintion Optional.

 

 

-then multi-YEAR plot arcs where a Focus is actively used against the character whose focus it is falls WAY outside of "Universal".

 

Comics are published on their own time schedule, something that takes years of real time to play out could have happened in days. All the storylines that I've read where Cap was without the shield could have been ran in a few sessions (and even then they all allowed him tempoary replacements for much of the arc).

 

Show me where Cap has lost the Shield for years IN the comics themselves.

 

 

I can't speak for the Marvel "GMs", but Cap certainly acts like he lives in fear of The Shield being permanently lost or destroyed... ...and THAT means he's paying the proper price for the (-2) Limitation.

 

Cap does not live in fear of anything. You must have him confused with someone else.

 

 

You seem to be a big one for granting limits that aren't limits. Gestures, Independant, Restrainable, etc.

 

By the logic you've used in this thread every character that ever appeared in any comic world should have those applied to his focus items. It's a joke. It's makes the system into a joke.

 

So much of a joke fact that either you aren't really serious about this, or else you are so disconnect from common wisdom on the ruleset that further exchanges are completely moot.

 

I'm done. Go play with someone else.

[CDad]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

This was an interesting thread. It's headed downhill.

 

Ki-Rin, nobody agrees with your interpretation of Independent. I don't, because once the Independent focus is gone, you can't have it back. It's not yours anymore, the points are gone, your character is X points weaker. So what if you retrieve it? You can only use it for one session, just like any other borrowed item.

 

If Cap's shield were Independent, then Red Skull would steal it, he'd spend the next year tracking it down and retrieving it, THEN hand it over to the Government. Cause it's not his anymore. He could save up the points and get an exact copy of it, but he has no claim to it.

 

Once I built the MP, and saw how cheap it was (22 points or so), I thought to myself - this is munchkin. No way I'd let it happen.

[Force]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Anyone who meets the requirements (characeristic minima or whatever) can use all of an Independent item's abilities. Period.

 

How +well+ they can use those abilities is another matter. That is skill, and skill can be learned and taught.

 

But you don't have any minimum requirements. I could pick up that shield and have a very good chance of reflecting a bullet fired at me right back at the armed robber that just shot at me.

 

I could protect someone right next to me as well as Captain America could from an armed bank robber.

 

That just NEVER happened in the comics.

 

That's why I don't agree with the use of independent.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

This was an interesting thread. It's headed downhill.

 

Ki-Rin, nobody agrees with your interpretation of Independent. I don't, because once the Independent focus is gone, you can't have it back. It's not yours anymore, the points are gone, your character is X points weaker. So what if you retrieve it? You can only use it for one session, just like any other borrowed item.

 

If Cap's shield were Independent, then Red Skull would steal it, he'd spend the next year tracking it down and retrieving it, THEN hand it over to the Government. Cause it's not his anymore. He could save up the points and get an exact copy of it, but he has no claim to it.

*choke* ...funny you should use that example. That is EXACTLY the summary of a 1.5-2 year (yes, Fox1- 1.5-2 years IN the comics themselves) of a major plot arc in Cap's comic some years back. The US government tried letting others use The Shield. It was a disaster and they practically begged Steve Rogers to take it back.

 

Once I built the MP, and saw how cheap it was (22 points or so), I thought to myself - this is munchkin. No way I'd let it happen.

 

That's 22 CP is just the MP control. It's only ~36 CP without Independent with the Powers and slots I gave it. In short, it's cheap. Multipower always has the potential to be that efficient.

 

OTOH, how cheap or expensive The Shield is in game terms was never the point. Modeling the device a closely as possible to as much of the source material as possible was the whole point.

 

Let's bear in mind that Cap is probably a 500-700 CP character (>= 250 CP of that just it characteristics, then there's the better than West Point military education he got, then there's the MA training, etc, etc... ...this, like Batman, is an EXPENSIVE character even if he is "only" human.).

 

As Steve himself has pointed out, The Shield, impressive as it is, makes up only a small part of Captain America.

 

...and with people hollering this much over "Independent", the howls over the suggestion a few have made to put Knockback Resistance into The Shield should have been deafening (BIG violation of HERO. If you doubt, try it in HD and see...)

Of course the fact is that The Shield DOES have KR, and a reasonably substantial amount at that. Using tricky constructs like FF or DS to avoid putting KR into the Shield's MP just makes things worse.

 

Everything The Shield can do can be modelled with Armor, EB, KR, and MD. That's it. Nice. Clean. Simple.

 

It shouldn't be that expensive and it isn't. Make it part of a 500+ CP character designed from the ground up to use it effectively and OF COURSE it looks efficient.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

But you don't have any minimum requirements

 

Of course I do The darn thing is a Large Shield made of solid metal, those metals are the strongest metals known to Man. It's HEAVY.

 

The Str Min on a "standard" Large Shield is 18. I'm arguably being nice when I set The Shield's Str min that low.

 

So how much can you lift?

 

Then there's the Dex min. My guess is that it is ~18 as well, but I don't feel on as firm a ground regarding it yet.

 

So just how agile are you?

 

The US government would +love+ to find people besides Steve Rogers who can do the job of Captain America and wield The Shield.

 

Think you have what it takes to apply for the job?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Clearly, we disagree on every major point here:

-I've quoted the rules word for word to you. You have chosen to interpret the Independent Limitation in a much more restricted and simplistic manner than HERO does. If "Independent" meant "at some point the GM must make sure the charater loses this item forever", They would have said so and given some guidelines as to what the maximum amount of time a GM should wait before doing so. That IS NOT the official write-up. It's not close to the official write-up. That's "screw the players" and "I'm too lazy and/or unimaginative to enforce this correctly." Fine. Just be honest about it and move on.

 

BS.

 

They don't give rules for how often you should steal a focus, how many times the restrainable power should be tied off, how often you should attack the Concentrating character to shut off their power, how often the OIHID character should be caught depantsed, or how often an enemy should hover outside the range of a No Range attack.

 

Hero doesn't do that. It gives a limitation value for a limitation, and you have to base how much the "screwage" needs to be on that.

 

A limitation that does not limt is worth -0. Independent has only one limiting factor to it.

 

Idependent has three effects: 1) Lasting beyond the lifetime of the person who paid for, 2) being usable by anyone and 3) being able to be lost forever.

1) Isn't a limitation.

2) Is a +0/-0 modifier; see Foci, Universal and Personal, for why it's not worth a saving.

 

And thank god no one agrees with you on anything.

[CDad]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Of course I do The darn thing is a Large Shield made of solid metal, those metals are the strongest metals known to Man. It's HEAVY.

 

The Str Min on a "standard" Large Shield is 18. I'm arguably being nice when I set The Shield's Str min that low.

 

So how much can you lift?

 

Then there's the Dex min. My guess is that it is ~18 as well, but I don't feel on as firm a ground regarding it yet.

 

So just how agile are you?

 

The US government would +love+ to find people besides Steve Rogers who can do the job of Captain America and wield The Shield.

 

Think you have what it takes to apply for the job?

 

I thought this was canon...Captain America's only weapon is his shield, a concave disk 2.5 feet in diameter, weighing 12 pounds. It is made of a unique Vibranium-Adimantium alloy that has never been duplicated. The Shield was cast by American metallurgist Dr. Myron MacLain, who was contracted by the U.S. government to create an impenetrable substance to use for tanks during World War II. During his experiments, MacLain combined Vibranium with an Adamantium-steel alloy he was working with and created the disc-shaped shield. MacLain was never able to duplicate the process due to his inability identify a still unknown factor that played a role in it. The shield was awarded to Captain America by the government several months after the beginning of his career.

[Agent333]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

In case nobody has said it about Ki-rin already...

 

http://members.ij.net/captbob2112/trollalert.gif