Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

[fbdaury]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Ki-Rin, the "campaign" that I was specifically talkin about was the Marvel Universe as protrayed in comics. Cap has taken hits from the Hulk, Gladiator, Thor, etc. and not been stunned senseless, which he would be with 20/20 armor, 10/10 body armor, 10PD and 30 Con- and that's only with an average roll, remember that attacks on that level can do upto 120 stun. Yes Force wall

is a SFX based power use, but one that much more accurately represents the way the Shield works. Anyone can use a universal focus to missle deflect, so actually putting usable by others on there still makes no sense. If the shield were so unwieldy as to be bulky, then there's no way that Cap would be able to throw it 60 feet and accurately hit anyoe, no matter how strong or agile he is. You can throw a shotput that far if you strong enough, but you won't be able to hit anyone with it. Once more, Oihid is not appropriate and it is illegal to put onto something that is already Oif anyways. Cap always got HIS shield back, meaning that whoever else got it never got to keep it, why? Because it is not Independent, that's why- he may have to quest to get it back, but he always will. He's not buying a new shield, he's getting HIS Shield back.

I suggested that you were disregarding any suggestions given because that's what you've done- nothing posted has seemed to shake how you would construct the Shield, which is fine I guess if you don't want to change. However, if you ask for feedback/assistance the the least you could do is give some consideration too what is offered to you. But then, YMMV.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Hmm.

 

If it (Cap's Shield) counts as both OIF and OHID, so would any focus specific to any character upon display/use. I've always assumed that if it can be carried (not necessary used) in disguise, that only the focus part applies.

I think another poster put it very well when he noted the difference between WOULD NOT and COULD NOT. The first means the character has a choice, the second means the character doesn't.

 

I'm known to be a fairly parsimonious GM, and I'd give GL the benefit of both the OIF and OHID Limitations if he -couldn't- use his ring unless he first has to change into costume.

 

Let's say Janet Van Pym becomes Giant Woman using a jewel Hank gave her. Her Hero ID includes a tasteful (by comics standards) outfit made of *mumble* that will grow with her. OTOH ordinary clothes rip to shreds when she uses her growth and/or density powers. In this genre, a naked hero wearing nothing except a jewel is simply NOT ALLOWED (The Comics Code trumps even this GM ). Therefore she is not allowed to be Giant Woman unless she is in hero ID +and+ she has a focus.

 

And I should point at that the Shields is a HUGE FREAKN' RED, WHITE AND BLUE SYMBOL of America's greatest hero. One that in and of itself likely to be instantly identified by more people than anything else in the world with the possible exception of Coke. If it's being used, he is in Hero ID.

Agreed. Which is why I based the limitation on something the blue armor has that normal clothes do not. Janet certainly feels that way about _her_ costume...

 

For what it's worth I have seen Cap use a simple garage lid to a) strike at range, block, and c) missile deflect all in street clothes.

 

To almost quote the good Captain: "The shield is not Captain America, I'm Captain America". Something to remember when contructing the Shield, it enhances more abilities of his than it has of it's own.

Here is where things like available CP come home to roost. The less points you have, the more you have to make trade offs about what aspects of the "real" comic book character you are going to sacrifice to keep as much of a model as you can. For most, accurately simulating what a Super can do during their typical adventures is the critical stuff.

 

In addition, the shield clearly has some special properties in and of itself or there wouldn't have been so many attempts to duplicate it, nor would it be as useful as it is when Vance Astro, or better yet some normal, is using it.

 

The shield is not Captain America, but Captain America is clearly incomplete without +THAT+ shield.

[Greywind]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Keep in mind that over the last 2-2 1/2 years real time, Captain America has been operating on the caveat of Public Identity.

 

USAgent is currently wearing a knock-off of Cap's outfit and not wearing the black one. Cap recently threatened Walker with a lawsuit due to the fact that Rogers holds the copywrite on the costume.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I'm known to be a fairly parsimonious GM' date=' and I'd give GL the benefit of both the OIF and OHID Limitations if he -couldn't- use his ring unless he first has to change into costume.[/quote']

 

Is there an example in an official character write-up that uses this construction?

 

 

Agreed. Which is why I based the limitation on something the blue armor has that normal clothes do not. Janet certainly feels that way about _her_ costume...

 

I think you're buying the storyline instead of buying the shield.

 

 

 

Here is where things like available CP come home to roost. The less points you have, the more you have to make trade offs about what aspects of the "real" comic book character you are going to sacrifice to keep as much of a model as you can.

 

What do points have to do with Captain America, he wasn't built on a budget. He's not a home grown character with X points and Y disads. He's Captain America.

 

In this case, you buy many of his abilities as they are. Ranged Martial Arts (throw weapons, i.e. shield), Missile Deflection, Martial Arts, etc.

 

And then the shield adds on top of them with it's limits.

 

Costs more, but it's a much better representation of Captain America.

 

 

The shield is not Captain America, but Captain America is clearly incomplete without +THAT+ shield.

 

Cap himself would disagree with you

 

But yeah, it sucks to loss the shield. Those bonuses do help.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Actually, Independent *never* says you will not ever under any circumstances get those points back. It instead reads the points are locked up in the object. If you want the points (or the object back) you go and get it back from who ever took it from you.

 

Foci, even unbreakable nearly irreplacable foci, do not make you lose the points and hence you can get "other" things to replace those lost points mechanically like a mini radiation accident.

 

Captain America loses sheild (dropped under the Ocean) Sharon Carter gets him the Energy Sheild.

 

Caps Sheild is not Independent per se since he has ready access to (inferior) (temporary) replacements.

 

PC versions of Cap can easily get by with OAF Independent. OIF for the record is silly, if you want to do it fine, but IMO Thor can grab Caps sheild right off his arm...the thing only has a 25-30 STR human and some leather straps bolted on the back. They break!!

 

Hawksmoor

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Independent might be an appropriate limitation to take if you consider how long Steve Rogers had to use a substitute shield in place of his unique one years ago.

 

BTW, there is an excellent writeup using a multipower for a Questionite Shield on pages 100-101 of Gadgets And Gear.

Can you please post the write-up in this thread?

[fbdaury]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Actually, Independent *never* says you will not ever under any circumstances get those points back. It instead reads the points are locked up in the object. If you want the points (or the object back) you go and get it back from who ever took it from you.

 

Foci, even unbreakable nearly irreplacable foci, do not make you lose the points and hence you can get "other" things to replace those lost points mechanically like a mini radiation accident.

 

Captain America loses sheild (dropped under the Ocean) Sharon Carter gets him the Energy Sheild.

 

Caps Sheild is not Independent per se since he has ready access to (inferior) (temporary) replacements.

 

PC versions of Cap can easily get by with OAF Independent. OIF for the record is silly, if you want to do it fine, but IMO Thor can grab Caps sheild right off his arm...the thing only has a 25-30 STR human and some leather straps bolted on the back. They break!!

 

Hawksmoor

 

Ah true, but in the case of Cap, they also have one of the world's greatest combatants along for the ride, meaning that grabbing and yanking away that shield is going to nigh impossible, hance why i would use OIF, due to the unlikelyhood of anyone getting the shield from Cap. But that's just the way I look at it.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Actually, Independent *never* says you will not ever under any circumstances get those points back. It instead reads the points are locked up in the object.

Yep.

 

 

If you want the points (or the object back) you go and get it back from who ever took it from you.

...Or you have to earn +another+ batch of XP equal to the value of the object you have lost and buy another one like it... ...or perhaps you've rebought the original if the item is unique like Cap's Shield.

 

Foci, even unbreakable nearly irreplacable foci, do not make you lose the points and hence you can get "other" things to replace those lost points mechanically like a mini radiation accident.

 

Captain America loses sheild (dropped under the Ocean) Sharon Carter gets him the Energy Sheild.

 

Caps Sheild is not Independent per se since he has ready access to (inferior) (temporary) replacements.

Yes, but "Cap loses shield, then has heroic year+ long quest to prove that he is still Cap without it culminating in him regaining shield after he proves that he is not dependant on it", or "Cap has shield stolen from him by The Red Skull or Taskmaster who proceed to use shield to impersonate him while commiting crimes and Cap spends a year+ a) proving his identity without the shield, proving his innocence, and finally c) recovering the Adamantium Frisbee after it is clear that it is no more than a symbol." are both plots that have happened and that are of sufficient complexity that it's clear Cap earned a lot of XP that were used almost exclusively to regain the shield OR went on a quest appropriate for recovering an Independant focus. Either one works.

 

PC versions of Cap can easily get by with OAF Independent. OIF for the record is silly, if you want to do it fine, but IMO Thor can grab Caps sheild right off his arm...the thing only has a 25-30 STR human and some leather straps bolted on the back. They break!!

The HERO source is very clear that OAF can be taken away from even a super by an agent who Grabs it. OAFs can be taken from characters with relatively Casual effort by even inferior enemies. If you aren't GMing it this way, your players are getting away with more than they are supposed to when taking the OAF Limitation.

 

Thor is a =god=. A Grab by him is like being crushed by a 50+ ton press.

Regardless, given how hard a time other Bricks, even ones like The Hulk, have had "just Grabbing" Cap's shield, I doubt even Thor would be taking the shield from a resisting Cap casually. He'd probably be able to do it, but he'd have to work for it. That's not casual, and that means it's an OIF, not an OAF, by the letter of the rules.

 

Side note: people objecting to any particular Limitation because it is "buying the story instead of buying the effect" are missing the point that when you put Limitations on something to make it cheaper or affordable, you are +supposed+ to be "buying the story" to some extent. Limitations limit your alternatives and strategies. They restrict your future in some way. That's =why= they are Limitations.

[Force]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Some random thoughts on how to build Cap's shield. Nothing direct to anything in the thread, just some ideas that I think should be adhered to.

 

The focus is not really independent. Ever see anyone use the shield like Cap does, even when he loans it out to a 'Super'? Indpendent means that ANYONE can use ALL of the focus's abilities just by merely possessing it. That just doesn't happen. This is the deciding mitigating factor on whether it's independent, imo.

 

It's hard to determine if the focus should be OHID, OAF or even OIF. I mean, how many times has Cap had his shield taken away or been without it? It could go any way here, but I think the least likely candidate is OHID. I think OIF and gestures is a good representation of this. There is no way it's bulky.

 

The armor value of the shield. This is the toughest design of all the shield's powers. Should it be designed as armor or force wall? Or possibly neither? Rarely does Cap actually use the shield to absorb damage. He usually either blocks or deflects an attack with it. This would also help explain the reason why he hardly ever gets knocked back. 20def armor is not good enough. Force wall means that if an attack actually DOES get thru, it's not there for any other attacks until the 'force wall' is established again on cap's next phase. That's not really accurate either. You could go off on a tangent and state that it's damage reduction, usable at range, aoe 1 hex, with limited facing/coverage perhaps.

 

The ranged attack of the shield. Tough one here. It's very rare when the shield does not return to Cap's hand. However, this should be easy to overcome.

[nexus]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I don't know if its been suggested, but you could represent the Sheild as a ton of DCV levels maybe with some sort of a Skill roll?

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Ah true' date=' but in the case of Cap, they also have one of the world's greatest combatants along for the ride, meaning that grabbing and yanking away that shield is going to nigh impossible, hance why i would use OIF, due to the unlikelyhood of anyone getting the shield from Cap. But that's just the way I look at it.[/quote']

 

I've seen a number of people take it away in the comics.

 

Beast grabbed it out the air as has Magneto. Nerfaria did as well. Just off the top of my head.

 

No so much when he had ahold of it. But then they have that DCV of his to overcome in any such attempt with the additional -2 modifier for going after the focus itself. They then must overcome his STR (straps on the shield can be brought to assist Cap in this attempt).

 

In short, very hard to do for most characters.

 

 

Or at least that's how I understood OAF to work.

 

That said, I'd buy it such that it was OAF only in 'flight'.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Ki-Rin, the "campaign" that I was specifically talkin about was the Marvel Universe as protrayed in comics. Cap has taken hits from the Hulk, Gladiator, Thor, etc. and not been stunned senseless, which he would be with 20/20 armor, 10/10 body armor, 10PD and 30 Con- and that's only with an average roll, remember that attacks on that level can do upto 120 stun.

Number of issues here besides just Author's License, which of course there is plenty of when titans like Lee and Kirby are "GMing"...

Maybe in the Marvel Universe Cap has outrageous levels of Combat Luck and/or Damage Reduction and/or etc, etc.

Maybe in the Marvel Universe Cap's Shield is more like 40/40 Armor (after all, even Iron Man treats it with respect in combat and it's been used to do things even 20 Def metals can't) and Cap's body armor is closer to 20/20 than 10/10.

Maybe in the Marvel Universe "the limits of Human potential" are different than what we think and Cap has the equivalent of what would be in HERO a 45+ Con and 20/20 personal PD and ED. Etc, etc.

 

Cap is balanced in the high powered game world of the Marvel Universe. The important thing is that his concept is to be balanced in whatever game world he is in. The exact stats would have to change as we change the game world.

 

Yes Force wall is a SFX based power use, but one that much more accurately represents the way the Shield works.

Hmmm. In what ways does Cap's shield act more like a FW that a piece of metal? And the reverse?

 

Anyone can use a universal focus to missle deflect, so actually putting usable by others on there still makes no sense.

I'll think on this.

 

If the shield were so unwieldy as to be bulky, then there's no way that Cap would be able to throw it 60 feet and accurately hit anyone, no matter how strong or agile he is. You can throw a shotput that far if you strong enough, but you won't be able to hit anyone with it.

1= I've already agreed that "Bulky (-1/2)" is inappropriate. "Restrictive (-1/4) is probably more accurate.

2= Modern Shotput is a sport form of a ancient _weapon_ MA...

 

Once more, Oihid is not appropriate and it is illegal to put onto something that is already Oif anyways.

OHID and OIF are independant and orthogonal Limitations. There is nothing illegal about using them together as long as the character concept Gets It Right. Appropriateness is a matter of taste. YMMV.

 

Cap always got HIS shield back, meaning that whoever else got it never got to keep it, why? Because it is not Independent, that's why- he may have to quest to get it back, but he always will. He's not buying a new shield, he's getting HIS Shield back.

As others have noted, Independant means the XP are >in< the shield. Those long quests to get the shield back are in fact +supporting+ evidence that the shield is an Independant Focus.

 

I suggested that you were disregarding any suggestions given because that's what you've done- nothing posted has seemed to shake how you would construct the Shield, which is fine I guess if you don't want to change. However, if you ask for feedback/assistance the the least you could do is give some consideration too what is offered to you. But then, YMMV.

OTC, I've agreed that Bulky isn't right and have and will continue to carefully consider everything I'm hearing. That doesn't mean I will agree with you or change my mind. It means I will listen and carefully consider.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Some random thoughts on how to build Cap's shield. Nothing direct to anything in the thread, just some ideas that I think should be adhered to.

 

1= The focus is not really independent. Ever see anyone use the shield like Cap does, even when he loans it out to a 'Super'? Indpendent means that ANYONE can use ALL of the focus's abilities just by merely possessing it. That just doesn't happen. This is the deciding mitigating factor on whether it's independent, imo.

 

2= It's hard to determine if the focus should be OHID, OAF or even OIF. I mean, how many times has Cap had his shield taken away or been without it? It could go any way here, but I think the least likely candidate is OHID. I think OIF and gestures is a good representation of this. There is no way it's bulky.

 

3= The armor value of the shield. This is the toughest design of all the shield's powers. Should it be designed as armor or force wall? Or possibly neither? Rarely does Cap actually use the shield to absorb damage. He usually either blocks or deflects an attack with it. This would also help explain the reason why he hardly ever gets knocked back. 20def armor is not good enough. Force wall means that if an attack actually DOES get thru, it's not there for any other attacks until the 'force wall' is established again on cap's next phase. That's not really accurate either. You could go off on a tangent and state that it's damage reduction, usable at range, aoe 1 hex, with limited facing/coverage perhaps.

 

4= The ranged attack of the shield. Tough one here. It's very rare when the shield does not return to Cap's hand. However, this should be easy to overcome.

 

1= The shield has been all of a) thrown as a weapon by others, used to protect against HA and c) used to Missile Deflect, by others. Including some supers. Just nowhere near as skillfully or effectively as by Cap. However, all of the effects were definitely there. That includes the "Cap clones" like USA Agent and Super Patriot and Red Skrull and Taskmaster.

 

2= Cap loses his shield as a major plot device every few years and the resultant plot arc is always a _big_ deal => Independant.

If Cap has the shield "in hand" it's +very+ hard to get from him. The focus rules say nothing about how hard it is to take a focus that is not on the character at the time of the attempt. => OIF.

Gestures is obvious.

OHID is the most controversial one but is borne out by the source material I've seen. As I've said, the explanation that could make sense is that an outfit appropriate for fighting and gloves are needed for a "human" to use the shield's more extreme abilities safely (no one else "human" who used Cap's shield did it without a combat uniform that included gloves. Some non-human Bricks like Beast and She-Hulk have.).

I've already agreed Bulky isn't right.

 

If I was Steve in a Champions campaign, I'd buy off Indepedant ASAP and OHID as fast as possible after that with XP. Maybe he has over the years...

 

3= The Damage Reduction idea is the best I've heard especially if combined with a moderate amount of Armor to model the shield physically.

 

4= Perhaps surprisingly, the 10d6 EB with a weapon specific skill and the use of the Bouncing Maneuver at a high level of skill has caused pretty much no comment.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

The armor value of the shield. This is the toughest design of all the shield's powers. Should it be designed as armor or force wall? Or possibly neither?

 

In my write-up (years of actual playtest behind it) I went with a MP that had a simple DCV bonus as it's primary defensive adjustment.

 

By the comic (Marvel Universe included) the shield did 'leak' a small percentage of the impacting energy. One example was when Cap (surprised at the time) took the full force of Thor's hammer on the shield when flat footed (i.e. no deflect, just full on). It stunned him nicely. Thus armor works in place of forcewall and doesn't have the drawbacks of a forcewall build (i.e strange limits, etc.).

 

So I had another slot that was heavy armor (30 PD, 30 ED double hardened) plus 15" of KNB- only with a 'block manuaver". This represent his ability to defend vs. AE and Explosions by ducking behind the shield. Actual blocks of course used the Shield's DCV bonus works against melee attacks.

[simplygnome]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

My 2 cents on OIHID...

 

There has to be a LIMITATION for him not being able to use his shield while not in his heroic ID....Cap never suffers a time when he just "cant" use the shield because he forgot his red white and blue pajamas.

 

While you state that he is never seen using it without costume, he is also never caught in a position where he was "trapped" in normal clothing, and resistant to use the shield. Cap, in this case, is getting exra cost break for no real limitation....It NEVER comes up in the source material that I've seen. Supers and Spidey? Sure...TONS of times...but never Cap.

 

Thats just how he works...Its OAF, or OIF, depending on how you want to play it, but definately not OIHID, .......IMHO.

 

 

-------------

On another note, its also no where near Independent....Its just not. Cap always gets it back somehow. Its a focus...Hes NOT just buying a new one. GLs ring has broken before and has been stolen. The ring he gets is a completely different one..but that doesnt mean that its Independent. Its a focus, so he gets it replaced relatively easily. Cap ALWAYS has a shield at his disposal, even if he has to scrounge up a little bit less of a replacement....

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Since he never has in any of the documentation of the _decades_ he's been active, I choose to assume he can't rather than won't.

 

Does has nothing to do with it. There are millions of things he's never done that he could do. OIHID means that no matter what, it is impossible. Even if the lives of the entire planet depended on it, an OIHID Cap could not throw the shield without his costume.

 

Really?

 

Great. You've got a better than 1/216 chance of hitting him (and his shield) now. Which turns him game-wise instantly from nigh impossible to hit into nigh impossible to damage. Darn good simulation of what happens in the source material.

 

Not really. Bulky foci are bulky when carried too. So if it's strapped to his back, he's really hosed.

 

Problem here is that we probably want something that is less than Bulky but more than nothing. We don't have it, so I'm doing the best I can with what we've got. Bulky is (-1/2). I may additionally invent a milder House Rule with a (-1/4) modifier.

 

Incidently, does he REALLY become easier to hit...

...or does he just block instead of dodge?

 

...Or did he re-earn the XP needed to effectively have another one? The plot lines in question were that long and that intense.

 

I believe, if you look at 'unbreakable', you may find descriptions of how to repair them if broken. Namely: Through long and intense adventuring.

 

Similiarly, it should be hard to get it back if stolen. By the rules, OAF is a -1. This is why. This is the OAF limitation.

 

The Shield is the bulk of his powers. He always gets it back eventually. Did he learn NOTHING from the entire experience? Or did he, in fact, gain as much "XP" for other things as he did for any other plot arc of similiar length?

 

Interesting philosophical view. I don't agree, but interesting nonetheless.

 

Actually, the () was inaccurate. It is not a _fair limitation_, not not fair. Independent cannot be fairly enforced. Period.

 

Thank you, I am aware of the focus design rules. Unfortunately, "Unique" isn't a game construct in HD 2.41 AFAICT. So I made do the best I could.

 

Unbreakable IS, and (nearly) 'unique' is associated with that.

 

Yep they can. Unless you Brace, and/or use the MA manuever Root, and/or make your Acrobatic Breakfall roll. Which is exactly what Cap does regularly.

He still gets Knocked Back by super strong bricks like Hulk on occasion, he just is a graceful undamaged ballistic object.

 

Does the Shield lessen it in the slightest?

If it has the kinetic dampening effects, it should have KBR. The Hulk does an average of (irrc) 20 odd inches of knockback in hero. Overcoming the KBR would still let him be sent flying, just less so for having caught it.

 

Quotes from the book: "An Accessible Focus is one that is easily taken away." "An Inaccessible Focus cannot be removed if the character is struggling or resisting." Is it "easy" to take Cap's shield from him when he's using it? Ummm. NO. It's an OIF.

 

Whether you can use a focus while restrained or not has nothing to do with it being Obvious or Inobvious, nor does it have anything to do with being Accessible or Inaccessible. That's why "Restrainable (-1/2)" exists as a Dis Ad independant of the Focus Dis Ad.

 

Is it easy? Yes, relatively speaking. It is no harder to remove than a mundane shield would be, given Cap's DCV. Mundane shields are OAF.

 

Restrainable is distinct from focus because it can belong on NON focused powers.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Actually, Independent *never* says you will not ever under any circumstances get those points back. It instead reads the points are locked up in the object. If you want the points (or the object back) you go and get it back from who ever took it from you.

 

Foci, even unbreakable nearly irreplacable foci, do not make you lose the points and hence you can get "other" things to replace those lost points mechanically like a mini radiation accident.

 

This reminds me. Proof it is NOT independent:

If you break an independent focus it cannot be repaired. The points are gone, the item is useless. (See: The One Ring, assorted other Plo Devices)

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Does has nothing to do with it. There are millions of things he's never done that he could do. OIHID means that no matter what, it is impossible. Even if the lives of the entire planet depended on it, an OIHID Cap could not throw the shield without his costume.

 

Really?.

 

Makes no sense does it?

 

Especially as I've seen him throw other shield like objects while in street clothes to the same effect.

 

Too much is being made of this, the fact no one can recall him ever tossing his real shield outside of his uniform is likely more the result of his off-again on-again near Secret ID (at the very least, a desire not be instantly ID as Captain America, something that the appearance of the shield would do in a flash) instead of an actual limit.

 

 

Not really. Bulky foci are bulky when carried too. So if it's strapped to his back, he's really hosed.

 

Something he's done often in disquise without problem. Never saw him suffer due to the size of the shield.

 

It's interesting to see someone claim it's OIHID on one hand because of what appeared in the comic, and claim Bulky when problems from that never appeared in the comic either.

 

The Shield is the bulk of his powers.

 

Powers yes. But by my write-up only about a tenth of his total points

 

 

Actually, the () was inaccurate. It is not a _fair limitation_, not not fair. Independent cannot be fairly enforced. Period.

 

Agreed.

 

In fact one way to run OAF is not to deny it's use every other adventure (which is overstated for a mere +1 limit IME, but that is a different subject) but to have it lost for oh, say a series of adventures.

 

Cap doesn't lose the points. And he 'keeps' what he earns on those adventures although the idea of him actually earning XP is bogus IMO anyway. He's what he is, nothing more and nothing less.

[tm80401]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

 

 

 

 

 

...Or he loses it and has to re-earn the XP to get his unique item back. Valid either way system wise. You say Pah-taa-tow...

 

 

 

I know I'm late, but what the heck.

 

 

Technically, if he gets the same sheild back, if it was bought with the Independent limitation, he doesn't have to pay points.

 

Independent, as typically used is for items created by the character and is IMHO not normally appropriate for Super Heroic campaigns.

[austenandrews]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Cap's shield essentially blocks every attack, period. For that reason I'd consider a variant of Desol. Though I'd hate to see the point totals for that.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Cap's shield essentially blocks every attack' date=' period. For that reason I'd consider a variant of Desol. Though I'd hate to see the point totals for that.[/quote']

 

Too much thought into that idea.

 

It's really simple:

 

For melee attacks, it blocks what Cap successful gets it in the way of. Standard block rules, give it a two or three CSL bonuses for the action.

 

It missile deflects what Cap successful gets it in the way of. Standard Missile Deflection rules. Buy bonuses to Missile Deflection (which Cap has at a base ability anyway). I gave it +5.

 

It shields against AE/EX if Cap goes 'defensive' with it. Buy enough armor and KNB resistance that it can handle the high end of these types of attacks in your game. Assume that anything that exceeds this (which shouldn't occur much) is from wrap around or like in Secret Wars- just too much for the shield.

 

Problem solved.

 

We don't have to go with odd-ball constructions for this. I've played it for years this way and never once thought it wasn't good enough for Captain America

[nexus]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I have to agree with Fox1 on this. The DCV/Missile Deflection construct has worked for me and my Captain America clone for quite awhile.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Actually AA you hit upon how I built the Shield on my BBB version of Cap called the Sentinel of Liberty (Lived in Flagstaff AZ yadda yadda yadda). SoL's Shield MP included all sorts of variations on Defense from Straight Armor to Damage Reduction to Desolid. SoL had a large enough pool that he could get 2 ultra slots out to cover his bases.

 

Just in case Ki-Rin was wondering I built him with OAF (Shield) and Independent. Ki Rin, the main problem you are getting from us is not that you are not bowing to your combined wisdom, although there is some of that on some posters part, but instead that your construct for the sheild is very *precise*...in a bad way. You see Ki, the Hero rules do *allow* you to add on all of those limitations because you are proceeding using logic. Thus you can get gestures, and arrangement (I do not agree on this since Gestures would imply his ability to get the shield in place (same thing with restainable.)

 

The fault lies in the fact that you are trying to get points for the SFX of the item in question. It's like getting a foci and gestures bonus on a gun, its bullets and the gestures lim to represent reloading. You can do it, and if every thing in the game world is treated to same then the "Sauce for the Goose" rules apply. If your Cap is unique or nearly so I suggest rereading 5E or 5ER on Limitations and what you *should*be doing with them. Because to most of us, even the recovering powergamer/rules rapists like myself the construct is broken.

 

Hawksmoor

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

My 2 cents on OIHID...

 

There has to be a LIMITATION for him not being able to use his shield while not in his heroic ID....Cap never suffers a time when he just "cant" use the shield because he forgot his red white and blue pajamas.

 

While you state that he is never seen using it without costume, he is also never caught in a position where he was "trapped" in normal clothing, and resistant to use the shield...

He _has_ been "trapped" in such positions in the source material. That is =exactly= the point.

 

Orginally posted by WhammeWhamme

OIHID means that no matter what, it is impossible. Even if the lives of the entire planet depended on it, an OIHID Cap could not throw the shield without his costume. Really?

Yes, at least that's the impression one gets in most era's of Cap you are look at. Nice way of putting it.

 

Guys, I know the rules on Limitations. All through this thread I've been saying that CAP CAN"T USE SHIELD TRICKS OUT OF COSTUME (and neither can "humans" like The Red Skull, Taskmaster, USA Agent, etc). Out of costume it's a big, hard, relatively flat chunk of disc shaped metal. Period. Full Stop.

There may be some versions of Cap where this limitation has been lifted, but this one is the most accurate to the source material I can find.

 

In addition, requiring such a costume by humans to use the shield as more than a passive device a) helps model and explains what does and doesn't happen when humans, even superhero humans, get a hold of The Shield in the source material, and provides GM control on how hard it is for this super weapon to be used by someone else.

 

*clouds part, ray of light appears, Voice begins*

As GM, after allowing discussion and listening to all the feedback, I have made a decision on this matter for this gameworld. Thanks for the thoughtful discussion on this subtopic. Let's move on please.

*end Voice, light winks out, clouds close*

 

The "ways to beef Cap up" section will contain advice to buy off OHID.

 

On another note, its also no where near Independent....Its just not.

A) Cap always gets it back somehow. Its a focus...Hes NOT just buying a new one.

GLs ring has broken before and has been stolen. The ring he gets is a completely different one..but that doesnt mean that its Independent. Its a focus, so he gets it replaced relatively easily.

C) Cap ALWAYS has a shield at his disposal, even if he has to scrounge up a little bit less of a replacement...

 

As others have correctly noted, A) HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER A FOCUS IS INDEPENDENT. Please read those rules gentlemen. An Independent Focus is basically an XP storage container.

 

The ease in with which GL's ring is replaced is actually good evidence for the case that Cap's shield is Independent since GL can get a new ring fairly easily, but Cap must regain the original item and it's been d@mn hard to most of the time..

 

Also, there's the fact that people keeping thinking Cap isn't Cap unless he has The Shield. Without it, he was "The Captain" or his identity has been questioned, even while in the rest of the costume. With it, even out of the rest of the costume, people instantly ID him as Cap (Which Red Skull took advantage of in one plot arc where he obtained the shield while in a body that was a clone of Steve's.). This "=I'm= Cap, the shield isn't. Stop getting it wrong." theme keeps coming up over and over in the source material.

 

Finally, the fact that others can use The Shield's lesser defensive capabilities at just about full effectiveness and that non human others can use The Shield's offensive capabilities as well argues that The Shield has abilities that are instrinsic to it. The Shield is not "just a focus for Cap's abilities". It in and of itself has abilities others can and do use when they get ahold of it.

 

All the factors combined means it is an XP respository, and that's Independent.

 

As for C), Ummm, NO. There have been at least 3 major plot arcs where this is not true, and there are some tricks he just doesn't do without The Shield.

 

The "reality" is complex since it really takes Steve Rogers + The Shield to = Captain America in the source material. Either one alone has impressive abilities, but the combination is synergistic.

 

If we're not using Independent, we have to figure out other ways to model all of the above. If I can find a way to do so without using Independent, I will.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I have to agree with Fox1 on this. The DCV/Missile Deflection construct has worked for me and my Captain America clone for quite awhile.

 

I think some of the new example entries into HERO System are to blame for things like reaching for Desolid as a construct.

 

Brick Tricks especally comes to mind. Instead of building a brick with high defenses, we're given examples of making them with missile deflection or desolid to represent their toughness.

 

The simple truth is that there are very few if any comic characters that actual work in such complete "I ignore it" fashion. I've see Superman take stun, ready or not for the attack. It just takes a heck of a big attack. Same with Hulk. If they can't do it, no one can do it.

 

Just buy up the defense to the level they need to be in the specific campaign. If you want more defense for 'being ready for it", buy more Def and throw a single simple limit of "only when using full phase to be ready for it" on it.

 

I think one would find that the game flows better and with less effort as a result.