Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

This reminds me. Proof it is NOT independent:

If you break an independent focus it cannot be repaired. The points are gone, the item is useless. (See: The One Ring, assorted other Plo Devices)

Yep. And neither can Cap's shield. The one time this happened, Cap had to go on an extensive quest that culminated in the re-creation of The Shield.

 

Sounds like an unrepairable XP sink to me...

 

Independent cannot be fairly enforced. Period.

Bah Humbug. If that were actually so the Independent Limitation would have to be removed from the HERO system. You're entitled to your opinion, but I can and do fairly enforce it all the time. Much to the chagrin of anyone trying to abuse it when I'm their GM

Perhaps a more accurate phrasing of your statement is...

"Independent cannot be fairly enforced by WhammeWhamme. Period."

[austenandrews]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Too much thought into that idea.

 

It's really simple:

It's simple for the easy cases. However:

 

It shields against AE/EX if Cap goes 'defensive' with it. Buy enough armor and KNB resistance that it can handle the high end of these types of attacks in your game. Assume that anything that exceeds this (which shouldn't occur much) is from wrap around or like in Secret Wars- just too much for the shield.

This gets right back into the "how much is enough?" discussion. My primary exposure to Cap was in 80's The Avengers, in which his shield not uncommonly deflected blows that might take out Thor. What kind of DEF are we talking about there? Way more than Thor. If I were building Avengers-level Cap with the by-definition "can resist any attack" shield, I'd be more inclined to avoid escalation issues (how much KB Resistance/Hardening/Lack Of Weakness/etc. is enough?) and just go with a limited form of Desol.

 

If I were building a WWII-level or street-level Cap, though, I'd probably do it the way you say.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

It's simple for the easy cases. However:

 

 

This gets right back into the "how much is enough?" discussion.

 

Remember this element of the shield is only useful against AE/EX attacks (block/missile deflect/DCV bonus is for everything else).

 

You're not going to see 20d6 AE/EX as a rule (it's a 200/150 active point attack), and those that you do likely should knock Cap on his butt shield or no shield, like the Doom's Beyonder powered attack in Secret Wars.

 

Build it with 20 or 30 rPD/rED, 2x Hardened, -15" KNB Resistance (only with 'defensive action' -1/2, plus other shield limits) and he won't take anything from most AE/EX attacks you'd see in a game with 100 active point limit- and no body from even vastly more powerful attacks.

 

We don't have to build the shield for everyone's campaign or construction method. We only have to build it for our own. That makes life easy.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

In my write-up (years of actual playtest behind it) I went with a MP that had a simple DCV bonus as it's primary defensive adjustment.

My problem with this is

1) _Cap_ has outrageous amounts of CV and CV modifiers like Martial Maneuvers and Skill Levels. What he can do without the shield proves that.

2) The shield clearly gets hit and and in general absorbs an enormous amount of punishment even when used in creative ways very unlike those of a regular Large Shield.

3) Cap's fighting style when using the shield offensively is very different from when he is using it defensively. As I noted in an earlier post, Cap's primary defense without it is "Dont Get Hit". Cap's primary defense with it is "Hit My Shield." The Shield as a "I defend like a MA!" "I defend like a Brick!" switch is IMHO part of what makes Cap so effective since it makes him more general purpose that either a MA or a Brick...

 

By the comic (Marvel Universe included) the shield did 'leak' a small percentage of the impacting energy. One example was when Cap (surprised at the time) took the full force of Thor's hammer on the shield when flat footed (i.e. no deflect, just full on). It stunned him nicely. Thus armor works in place of forcewall and doesn't have the drawbacks of a forcewall build (i.e strange limits, etc.).

 

So I had another slot that was heavy armor (30 PD, 30 ED double hardened) plus 15" of KNB- only with a 'block manuaver". This represent his ability to defend vs. AE and Explosions by ducking behind the shield. Actual blocks of course used the Shield's DCV bonus works against melee attacks.

Nice example. It's one of the reasons I originally decided The Shield was primarily Missile Deflection and Armor instead of DCV bonuses.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

My problem with this is

3) Cap's fighting style when using the shield offensively is very different from when he is using it defensively. As I noted in an earlier post, Cap's primary defense without it is "Dont Get Hit". Cap's primary defense with it is "Hit My Shield." The Shield as a "I defend like a MA!" "I defend like a Brick!" switch is IMHO part of what makes Cap so effective since it makes him more general purpose that either a MA or a Brick...

 

That's why I brought the offensive abilites with lockout on the defensive ones. If he's tossed the shield, he can't use the DCV bonuses.

 

It makes it tactically interesting to run him, and gives him a reason to close with the enemy.

 

 

 

Nice example. It's one of the reasons I originally decided The Shield was primarily Missile Deflection and Armor instead of DCV bonuses.

 

Thanks.

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

We don't have to build the shield for everyone's campaign or construction method. We only have to build it for our own. That makes life easy.

 

I want to expand on this.

 

I've run a Marvel based game for a long time, and one of the key things about it IS this very fact.

 

Thus when I make up a villain, I can ask myself have I given him powers that should work on HERO X.

 

In this case, an AE/EX that would blow Cap away.

 

Thus I can determine if it should (like a beyonder powered AE blast), or if it needs to be changed, or if I need to boost Cap's Shield.

 

In a consistent setting (something comics aren't, but something I would say our games should be even so), we have to keep such things in mind for all the constructions.

 

Thus I can't create just a X-Man, I have to create the whole team with a eye on everything.

 

It's not as hard as it sounds, and it in the end makes things much easier. I don't have to worry about things that I'd never put in the game in the first place.

 

Of course it means my write-ups are likely not transferable to other campaigns. But I don't see anyone requesting them for that anyway

[Eyendasky80]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I don't understand what you're asking. You seem very pleased with the build you've got so why are you polling people and deBAITING them? Do you want us to recognize that yours is the perfect build? People would be a lot happier to help you if you thank them for their time, smile and nod.

[austenandrews]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Remember this element of the shield is only useful against AE/EX attacks (block/missile deflect/DCV bonus is for everything else).

That's one of the problems, though. (And forgive me if this has been hashed over already. I haven't read back very far in the thread. Of course this issue has been wrung dry many times already. ) Now you're down to either burning most of Cap's Phases doing defensive maneuvers or buying such an outrageous DCV that no one's ever going to land a blow. I'm not sure either one simulates the comics well enough for me.

 

Build it with 20 or 30 rPD/rED, 2x Hardened, -15" KNB Resistance (only with 'defensive action' -1/2, plus other shield limits) and he won't take anything from most AE/EX attacks you'd see in a game with 100 active point limit- and no body from even vastly more powerful attacks.

 

We don't have to build the shield for everyone's campaign or construction method. We only have to build it for our own. That makes life easy.

See, that's another problem. I don't explicitly use active point limits, and even if I did, they wouldn't apply to most Avengers-level villains. Let's face it, against attacks that could stagger Thor (which aren't remotely Beyonder-level, btw), with just +20 rPD Cap will get knocked for a loop so often he'll look like macrame.

[Force]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Finally, the fact that others can use The Shield's lesser defensive capabilities at just about full effectiveness and that non human others can use The Shield's offensive capabilities as well argues that The Shield has abilities that are instrinsic to it. The Shield is not "just a focus for Cap's abilities". It in and of itself has abilities others can and do use when they get ahold of it.

 

You have to remember tho, if it is independent, ANYONE can use ALL of the focus's powers/abilities TO FULL AFFECT. Even joe schmoe normal. He could missile deflect AT RANGE. That NEVER happens.

 

OHID is a terrible way to buy the focus. Do you actually think that Cap absolutely cannot use his shield unless he is wearing a costume?!?!?! That Cap's ABILITY to use the shield comes from his costume?!?!!?

 

And how far back did you go in your research on this? If you have them, take a look at some tales of suspense and you might find enough reasons there not to take OHID.

[Force]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

See, that's another problem. I don't explicitly use active point limits, and even if I did, they wouldn't apply to most Avengers-level villains. Let's face it, against attacks that could stagger Thor (which aren't remotely Beyonder-level, btw), with just +20 rPD Cap will get knocked for a loop so often he'll look like macrame.

 

Which is why I suggested some sort of damage reduction, usable by others, aoe 1 hex, or something along those lines...

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

That's one of the problems' date=' though. (And forgive me if this has been hashed over already. I haven't read back very far in the thread. Of course this issue has been wrung dry many times already. ) Now you're down to either burning most of Cap's Phases doing defensive maneuvers or buying such an outrageous DCV that no one's ever going to land a blow. I'm not sure either one simulates the comics well enough for me.[/quote']

 

If Cap is under consant AE/EX attack, I'd expect him to be burning his phases on defensive actions. That's what he does in the comic.

 

He'll still have half moves (assuming he times it as he should) and can close with his foe. He also has a solid SPD advantage over most and that will also be telling.

 

Frankly, he'll outlast nearly any AE/EX tosser or out SPD them.

 

Remember, I've ran him for years. With anything built to be in the same campaign as him- he's rock solid.

 

I've had players of Thor and Silver Surfer stare at him in awe. Actual quote from the SS player: "Hammer or Board? Snort, that shield is the ultimate weapon".

 

 

 

See, that's another problem. I don't explicitly use active point limits, and even if I did, they wouldn't apply to most Avengers-level villains. Let's face it, against attacks that could stagger Thor (which aren't remotely Beyonder-level, btw), with just +20 rPD Cap will get knocked for a loop so often he'll look like macrame.

 

I use +30 rPD & rED myself.

 

I don't recall many AE/EX attacks being able to Stun Thor. Directed attacks, yes. But block or missile deflect works on them.

 

In the few cases where I do recall such AE/EX attacks in the comics, they cooked the good Captain just as well.

 

In any case, from my write-ups.. checking here....

 

Thor would be stunned by an AE doing 85 stun (55 PD, 30 CON), Cap would be stunned by an AE doing... 83 (48 total PD, 25 CON).

 

That would take a 24 dice AE on average. Even so Cap would only be stunned for a single round.

 

If you're tossing 24 dice AEs around, and they not 'beyonder' level attacks meant to whack Cap through/around the shield...

 

Well, you're doing a compeltely different style of Avengers game than I. Poor Hawkeye, Black Widow and others must be used to constant rezzes from someone.

[austenandrews]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

If Cap is under consant AE/EX attack' date=' I'd expect him to be burning his phases on defensive actions. That's what he does in the comic.[/quote']

You're forgetting what I said first - I don't like leaning on a DCV bonus as the main effect. Maybe if it was conditional. As I recall Cap got grabbed and thrown quite a bit (which is admittedly much more likely in a team comic than a solo one).

 

Well, you're doing a compeltely different style of Avengers game than I. Poor Hawkeye, Black Widow and others must be used to constant rezzes from someone.

Hawkeye & the others aren't built to go toe-to-toe with Thor-busters. It's the job of Thor, Iron Man, the Vision, etc. to take the brunt of those attacks. Again, I'm not just talking about AE attacks.

[CDad]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Hey Fox1...

 

Could you post the write-up for the Shield your character uses? I'd really like to see it!

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Actually AA you hit upon how I built the Shield on my BBB version of Cap called the Sentinel of Liberty (Lived in Flagstaff AZ yadda yadda yadda). SoL's Shield MP included all sorts of variations on Defense from Straight Armor to Damage Reduction to Desolid. SoL had a large enough pool that he could get 2 ultra slots out to cover his bases.

...while I'm trying to minimize the number of effects in the shield because IMHO that is a "cleaner" design.

 

Just in case Ki-Rin was wondering I built him with OAF (Shield) and Independent.

Thanks for the details. As for OAF vs OIF (from The Book):

"An Accessible Focus is one that is easily taken away. An Accessible Focus can be hit by a Grab Maneuver (see Combat Maneuvers), or by any Ranged Attack taking an extra -2 OCV (like an Energy blast or a thrown rock). In either case, the attacker must state before he rolls his Attack Roll that he's trying to hit the Focus. If he makes his Attack Roll, he has grabbed the Focus (if he made a Grab) or hit it (with a Ranged Attack). The Focus is knocked free if the attacker rolls more Body for his attack than the defender rolls Body for his Strength. (For more information, see Disarm).

An Inaccessible Focus can't be hit with a Grab or a Ranged Attack while the character is in combat. However, an Inaccessible Focus can be taken away by someone taking one Turn out of combat. An Inaccessible Focus can not be removed if the character is struggling or resisting."

 

Cap is only ~25 Str in any game world. If Cap's shield was OAF, then by the rules for OAF and Disarm, he'd be having it "knocked free" and sent flying (1/2)d6 hexes on a regular basis by just about any opponent stronger than him (almost all of them) who succeeded in attacking his focus. +Everyone+ would be trying to separate Cap from a OAF shield as their first priority. It would seriously hamper the character and reduce his effectiveness.

 

It doesn't happen in the source material. Therefore either a) Cap has something special like "+50 Str to Resist having Shield Disarmed" OR it's an OIF. OIF is cleaner systems-wise, so The Shield is an OIF.

 

Ki Rin, the main problem you are getting from us is not that you are not bowing to your combined wisdom, although there is some of that on some posters part, but instead that your construct for the sheild is very *precise*...in a bad way. You see Ki, the Hero rules do *allow* you to add on all of those limitations because you are proceeding using logic.

"*precise*...in a bad way." is a judgement call and a matter of opinion. I try to use those as little as possible when making "homage" builds. Logic is definitely a better place to start. Evidence and Logic combined are even better.

 

Thus you can get gestures, and arrangement (I do not agree on this since Gestures would imply his ability to get the shield in place (same thing with restainable.)

Arrangement has been removed. Restrainable has not.

 

The fault lies in the fact that you are trying to get points for the SFX of the item in question. It's like getting a foci and gestures bonus on a gun, its bullets and the gestures lim to represent reloading. You can do it, and if every thing in the game world is treated to same then the "Sauce for the Goose" rules apply. If your Cap is unique or nearly so I suggest rereading 5E or 5ER on Limitations and what you *should*be doing with them. Because to most of us, even the recovering powergamer/rules rapists like myself the construct is broken.

"A Limitation that doesn't limit the character (or power) isn't worth any bonus!" I'm a stickler for this. The gun example doesn't work because for most guns reloading is not a big enough problem to qualify for the Gestures Limitation (For a HMG or AA gun OTOH it might...).

 

I'm trying to be as true to the source material and the game system as possible, not Power Game. I find it highly ironic that some of the Power Gamers are the most vocal opponents of this build; +particularly+ the parts that wouldn't allow The Shield to be as powerful as they'd like if they were wielding it...

 

People shouldn't be confused here. I fully expect that any Limitations put into this build will be ENFORCED. That's why I'm being so careful with regards to modeling the source material as accurately and carefully as possible.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

 

Originally Posted by Ki-rin

My problem with this is

3) Cap's fighting style when using the shield offensively is very different from when he is using it defensively. As I noted in an earlier post, Cap's primary defense without it is "Dont Get Hit". Cap's primary defense with it is "Hit My Shield." The Shield as a "I defend like a MA!" "I defend like a Brick!" switch is IMHO part of what makes Cap so effective since it makes him more general purpose that either a MA or a Brick...

 

That's why I brought the offensive abilites with lockout on the defensive ones. If he's tossed the shield, he can't use the DCV bonuses.

 

It makes it tactically interesting to run him, and gives him a reason to close with the enemy.

Yep. In my original set-up of The Shield Multipower (...and I haven't even opened that can of worms publicly yet! ), making it so that the shield is either offense or defense was the first thing I did.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I don't understand what you're asking. You seem very pleased with the build you've got so why are you polling people and deBAITING them? Do you want us to recognize that yours is the perfect build? People would be a lot happier to help you if you thank them for their time' date=' smile and nod.[/quote']

I am neither pleased nor displeased with the build. It's an intellectual exercise whose goal is to get the best "product" we can out of it.

 

Some things I have changed given feedback based on evidence and logic. Others I have not because either the evidence or the logic did not hold up upon examination. That does not mean I did not appreciate the discussion or feedback, just that I couldn't find a way to agree with it.

 

Just so everyone is clear on This: I very much appreciate the discussion and feedback even if I don't end up agreeing with a specific dissenting POV.

 

Hopefully that will clear that up.

[Constantine]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I'll have to check in my retired character file back home to look for specifics about how the shield was built, but here is what I remember now. The shield was independent. But just the shield, some basic defensive components, and a little extra HA. A couple of levels with block, some inherent defenses for getting the shield in the way, thats it. Everything else had to be learned. Sure, anyone can throw the shield, but can they throw it effectively? Same with missile deflection. I paid absolutely NO points for the shield, but I paid plenty for what I could do with it. If I lost the shield, I lost only the independent effects of the shield, and the ability to use the other points until I found a suitable replacement.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Fox1,

 

Just what Dex and SPD did you give to your version of Cap? What about your version of Batman (if you have such a thing)?

 

I have a hard time believing that a "human" has a SPD greater than 5 or -maybe- 6...

 

But I'm willing to be convinced.

[Constantine]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Fox1,

 

Just what Dex and SPD did you give to your version of Cap? What about your version of Batman (if you have such a thing)?

 

I have a hard time believing that a "human" has a SPD greater than 5 or -maybe- 6...

 

But I'm willing to be convinced.

 

Cap isn't just human. He's a human on supersoldier serum. He's an altered human, so that puts all his stats into the hands of whoever is making him...

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

... I paid absolutely NO points for the shield' date=' but I paid plenty for what I could do with it. If I lost the shield, I lost only the independent effects of the shield, and the ability to use the other points until I found a suitable replacement.[/quote']

That sounds like the philosophy I planned to use for the MP.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

You have to remember tho, if it (The Shield) is Independent, ANYONE can use ALL of the focus's powers/abilities TO FULL AFFECT. Even joe schmoe normal. He could Missile Deflect AT RANGE. That NEVER happens.

Joe Schmoe normal isn't strong, fast, or skilled enough to do much with the shield. That's characteristic minimums for use cutting in, not that the abilities aren't there to use. Strong enough characters +have+ used The Shield to Missile Deflect at range. Even villains. Even villains using it >against< Cap.

 

OHID is a terrible way to buy the Focus. Do you actually think that Cap absolutely cannot use his shield unless he is wearing a costume?!?!?!

Given the evidence, yes.

 

That Cap's ABILITY to use the shield comes from his costume?!?!!?

Now THIS would be silly... As I've posted, a rationale that does hold water is that the Shield Tricks require full body movement and hand protection for a human class being that requires an appropriate outfit and that has gloves.

 

Even normals have to change into the right clothing to do things at the limit of their physical abilities with objects that will flay/rip/scrape the flesh off bare hands etc under ordinary use, and they're not dealing with anywhere near the energy Cap is when using that shield in combat.

 

Throwing that shield is a full body motion involving just about every muscle in Cap's torso and hips. It's NOT a frisbee. Think it might matter that he's wearing appropriate togs to give him the range of motion he needs?

 

That shield often comes back as fast as a fastball and is metal that weighs a lot more with an _edge_ on it. Can you catch a fastball bare handed? Magnify the kinetic energy by 100x. Think gloves might be appropriate for a "human"?

 

I can certainly see the other POV, but the evidence and rationale hold up in favor of OHID.

 

...It's certainly going to make playing him more interesting.

 

And how far back did you go in your research on this? If you have them, take a look at some _Tales of Suspense_ and you might find enough reasons there not to take OHID.

Go back far enough and Cap doesn't have a Shield with EB. But for those where he does...

1) Did he ever use the Shield Tricks without wearing an appropriate fighting costume or gloves?

2) Did any other human class being?

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Hey Fox1...

 

Could you post the write-up for the Shield your character uses? I'd really like to see it!

 

I've sort of avoided this because any construction is very specific to the campaign at hand. They often don't make sense outside that.

 

Plus some items on a build have GM permission required, there's the influence of house rules on the build, etc.

 

As a result, such things often don't make sense unless you can place it in context, something difficult if you don't play in my game.

 

This is also a 'quick' conversion to 5E, I haven't seriously double, tripled, and quad check it to make sure all the points are correct. I hope I've costed the shield so the slot cost conflicts work right. So bear with errors in that respect.

 

 

So...

 

With that said, Here's the entire character sheet in PDF.

 

http://home.comcast.net/~b.gleichman/Campaigns/Superheroes/Captain%20America.pdf

 

 

Here's the Shield in a slightly unreadable format:

 

Shield: Unbreakable Focus

 

Cost

93 Multi-Power Reserve: 162 Points (OIF -1/2, OAF when thrown -1/4)

 

 

1 1) DCV +2, Lockout on Slots 5-6 (-1/4) 10U

 

1 2) +5 to Missile Deflection 10U

 

1 3) Missile Reflection; Full Concentration (-1/2), Full Phase (-1/2) 40U

Any Target

 

6 4) Armor: 30 PD, 30 ED; 2x Hardened Defenses 142U

w/15" Knb Resistance

Requires a 'Block' Action' (-1/2)

 

1 5) Strike: HA +3d6, No End Cost (+1/2) 15U

 

3 6) Edge: 1 1/2d6K HtH, AP (+1/2), No End Cost (+1/2) 50U

 

1 7) Thrown Strike: HA +3d6, Usable at Range (+1/2) 30U

1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4); Lockout (-1/2), No End Cost (+1/2)

 

2 8) Thrown Edge: 1 1/2d6K HtH, AP (+1/2), Usable @ Range (+1/2) 62U

No End Cost (+1/2)

1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4); Lockout (-1/2)

 

 

 

Slot one is the basic +2 DCV for the shield. Added to his base DCV, Combat Values and Martial Arts, it's significant. It locks out all attacking functions except Slot 3.

 

Slot 2 is a bonus to his natural Missile Deflection written on the sheet.

 

Slot 3 represent his ability to (with serious effort) reflect attacks

 

Slot 4 is the defense vs. AE/EX I've spoken of. It can also be used for other things, like vs. falling damage. In the same way we alllow bricks to 'shield' normals with their body- it also allows Cap to shield others if they are directly behind him.

 

Slot 5 is the basic hit them with the shield. The high bonus (not the typical 2d6 for a club) is due to it's special ability to in effect absorb the impact into itself and reflect it back. Used with his Martial Arts style.

 

Slot 6 may not have been mention in this thread. Cap has used the shield to slice and dice many a robot- and cut the head off of Baron Blood. This is that Kill attack. AP is due to the absorb/reflect effect again. Again used with his Used with his Martial Arts style.

 

Slot 7 & 8 are the lockout thrown versions of slots 5 & 6. They are used with his ranged Martial Arts skills. This is very important as it allows him to do many of his comic moves with the shield (trip, disarm, etc.).

 

 

 

 

 

 

The inter-relationship between fixed defensive actions, the slot costs, plus the lockout slots are tactically interesting, as is the loss of the +2 DCV if he uses it offensively.

 

Also note that he does more damage HtH then range (due to the Martial Arts effects), thus giving him another reason to close to battle- as in the comics.

 

 

Edit:

 

I have a BLAST running this character. The other one I run is Cyclops when it's a X-Men game.

 

Note- no vehicles or bases included on the sheet. I don't make individual characters note the payment for such there. Save space and we all know he has the stuff.

 

New Edit: Btw, I've only recently started converting characters to 5E. That's the primary reason I'm visiting this group. To see ideas on how things are done in HERO 5e.

 

So that write-up is rushed. I just caught a error and had to go correct it and up load it again. That will likely happen for days...

[Fox1]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Fox1,

 

Just what Dex and SPD did you give to your version of Cap? What about your version of Batman (if you have such a thing)?

 

I have a hard time believing that a "human" has a SPD greater than 5 or -maybe- 6...

 

But I'm willing to be convinced.

 

25 DEX and a 7 SPD.

 

I may view them differently than most.

 

I don't view it as just pure physical ability. I view it in large measure as to how decisive the character is in combat, i.e. how quickly he takes in the battle and determines a course of action. So it's a mix source stat for me.

 

So here's how my game breaks down on SPD values:

 

Normal humans: 1-3 SPD

 

Exceptional Combat Humans, Typical Superhero: 4 SPD

 

Superhero Martial Artist/Combat Guru: 5 SPD

 

World Class Superhero Martial Artist: 6 SPD

(Batman, Iron Fist, etc. go here)

 

Captain America (ultimate human combatant- Super Soldier): 7 SPD

 

 

Spiderman comes in at a 8, Quicksilver at a 10.

 

 

Here's DEX (for human types):

 

Normal humans: 8-16

 

Exceptional Combat Humans, Typical Superhero: 17-18

 

Superhero Martial Artist/Combat Guru: 20-23

 

World Class Superhero Martial Artist: 23

(Batman, Iron Fist, etc. go here)

 

Captain America (ultimate human combatant- Super Soldier): 25

 

 

 

In general, compared to at least old style Champions I run less DEX, SPD, CON and more Def and damage.

[Force]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Joe Schmoe normal isn't strong, fast, or skilled enough to do much with the shield. That's characteristic minimums for use cutting in, not that the abilities aren't there to use. Strong enough characters +have+ used The Shield to Missile Deflect at range. Even villains. Even villains using it >against< Cap.

 

Cool. As long as minimum stats or skills are required to use some of the abilities, then independent should work quite well.

 

I think that OIF is the best way to represent the focus in the comics. Cap never gets it shot out of his hand. Some additional limitation needs to be built in to represent the 'OAF' properties of the shield.

 

Now THIS would be silly... As I've posted, a rationale that does hold water is that the Shield Tricks require full body movement and hand protection for a human class being that requires an appropriate outfit and that has gloves.

 

You do realize that Cap has thrown his shield with his arms strapped to a table? The only mobility he had was in his wrist. And double check those Tales of Suspense, particularly when he decided to retire.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Yep. And neither can Cap's shield. The one time this happened, Cap had to go on an extensive quest that culminated in the re-creation of The Shield.

 

Sounds like an unrepairable XP sink to me...

 

It was actually repaired. ANY unbreakable focus should require an extensive quest to repair if broken.

 

Was it repaired? Yes.

 

Apparently you underestimate how limiting Focus is, and thus think it's legitimate to slap on a -2 "because my PC needs the points" limitation.

 

The Shield get's broken/stolen no more often than any other major focus.

 

Bah Humbug. If that were actually so the Independent Limitation would have to be removed from the HERO system. You're entitled to your opinion, but I can and do fairly enforce it all the time. Much to the chagrin of anyone trying to abuse it when I'm their GM

Perhaps a more accurate phrasing of your statement is...

"Independent cannot be fairly enforced by WhammeWhamme. Period."

 

It's not a limitation for superheroic PC's. It's a limitation for

a) Fantasy Games

and

Plot Devices

 

You can make it worth it's cost, easily. But what's the point? They should lose it after a few sessions and never see it again. Ooh, that's fair.

 

The onyl way to enforce it is to hose the character in question and cost them points permanently. In a game where the fundamental paradigm is that all points are created equal, having less points than someone else is inherently unfair.

 

People may accept it, but it is not fair. And giving the points (or Shield) back? Also not fair, as that's not enforcing the limitation they took.

 

And yes, Independent should be taken out of the rules (or made a -0) so people stop misusing it.