Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

[pinecone]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Not disagreein but the new 5Th has greatly increased "normal" stats. I also try to buy stats so that figured stats are at the level I want them...it's just a "style" thing....

[Force]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Not disagreein but the new 5Th has greatly increased "normal" stats. I also try to buy stats so that figured stats are at the level I want them...it's just a "style" thing....

 

I understand the 'style' thing, but it seems kinda outrageous to me that if you wanted to build a MA with 60 stun that you would give him 30str/30con/30bod to get him to 60 stun.

[pinecone]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Yeah I'm seeing your point but I'd have no problem with a Super boxer with 30 str, 30 con and 20 body and thats 50 stun and I'd likely just tough it out and stay at 50... I'd likely set Cap's Con at 30 as well as his STR, I would only give him mondo-Body if I thought he was likely to take a lot of body as body is very inefficient as a way to build up stun.....

[austenandrews]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Cap's END feats are better attributed to 0 END than outrageous END, if you go with the "does not tire" bit.

 

OTOH I have no problem with a high BODY score. I've never rated BODY strictly from physical mass. BODY is how tough you are to kill, which dramatically speaking has as much to do with willpower as body mass. I think it's pretty well established that very little stops Cap.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I guess for some reason you don't believe in buying up figured characteristics. No way cap has 25 body! Max human is supposed to be 20. If you want him to have a higher stun, simply buy it up!

 

You can always buy +'s to his con roll. You can also buy +'s to his dex via fastdraw as well.

You obviously don't belong to The Steve Goodman School of Effectiveness

 

In all seriousness, while I don't like to min-max to extremes, it's also silly to completely ignore the issue of spending CP efficiently. Nor is it reasonable to ignore the basic concept of the character.

 

Cap's Str, Dex, and Con are all best modelled as over the NCM of 20 given the source material and no one seems to mind that. Yet give him a Bod over 20, even when it fits the character concept, and some people feel bad about it? That doesn't make sense.

 

30 Str, 23-28 Dex, 35 Con, 25 Bod, 10 PD, 10 ED, 6 SPD, 13 REC, 62 END, 62 STUN

 

seems to be a "best fit" for Cap's physical characteristics given the source material.

 

Higher point versions should increase his Dex to 29 and SPD to 7 to make him competitive physical stat wise. None of his other physical stats should be increased no matter what.

 

Lower point versions should lower his non-physical stats first and then if that isn't enough lower his SPD to 5 and his Str, Dex, and Con to around 25.

 

Even lower point versions should put Cap at NCM all across the board, although that should only be in a very low point campaign.

[Force]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

30 Str, 23-28 Dex, 35 Con, 25 Bod, 10 PD, 10 ED, 6 SPD, 13 REC, 62 END, 62 STUN

 

seems to be a "best fit" for Cap's physical characteristics given the source material.

 

I would change that from 'source material' to 'your campaign'. I could see Cap having a 35 con/25bod if you would build your version of the Hulk or Thor as having 60+ con/40-50+ bod, I guess those stats would not be unreasonable.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I don't necessarily think that Hulk and Thor have much higher Con or Bod than Cap. (I can hear the flames leaping on THAT...)

 

Time and time again Cap has proven that he is as difficult to kill or permanently harm as even high-end Bricks like Hulk and Thor. He can't do the same things they can, and he gets MILDLY hurt more often than they do, but that's about the extent of it. He heals fast, but not as fast as he would if he had Regeneration or anything like that.

In short, in game terms he has a high Con and Bod. Probably solidly in the Brick class.

 

Hulk is a tough one because of that tag line of "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets!" Relatively difficult to model systems wise.

 

Thor is a god. Full stop. He's definitely a high-end Brick in every way, and then there's the rest of it: Weather control, the Uru war-hammer Mjonir, the belt of strength or prowess (Megingjardir), etc, etc.

(http://www.vikingage.com/vac/religion4.html gives a religiously accurate Thor.)

 

I can EASILY see Hulk and Thor having LARGE Con scores to match or almost match their Str scores. In any event, it would not make sense to me for either Hulk or Thor to have a Con less than 1/2 their Str.

 

If I had to guess without more research I'd say Hulk has the most Bod, followed by Thor, and then Cap; and that the difference between Hulk's and Thor's Bod scores was greater than the difference between Thor and Cap's. I could see Hulk at 40, Thor at 30, and Cap at 25. That would probably be the most extreme range between them that makes sense to me though.

 

EDIT: if we use the "+5 equals 2x as much" metric for Bod, Hulk's, Thor's and Cap's Bod scores could be much closer than the above...

[ParagonAlpha]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I'

The problem is that Cap NEVER misses his Con Roll, does Hulk and Thor-like feats of Con+END, etc etc

 

I'd have to argue on this one. Cap does and has missed his Con Roll. He's been knocked out by gas, nearly drowned, and once was under the effects of a bunch of Crack when a warehouse blew up (the 'Streets of Fire' arc).

 

If 20 is concidered Max Human (and in Champs it is), Cap has a alot of 23's. He doesn't need a high Int or Ego, he has lots of skills.

 

Now if you want Cap to be able to hang with Thor and the Hulk, you are not building a true Captain America. But hey it's your game.

 

 

Peace

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

I'd have to argue on this one. Cap does and has missed his Con Roll. He's been knocked out by gas, nearly drowned, and once was under the effects of a bunch of Crack when a warehouse blew up (the 'Streets of Fire' arc).

 

If 20 is concidered Max Human (and in Champs it is), Cap has a alot of 23's. He doesn't need a high Int or Ego, he has lots of skills.

 

Now if you want Cap to be able to hang with Thor and the Hulk, you are not building a true Captain America. But hey it's your game.

My first pass at Steve Rogers was to take NCM and multiply it by 1.25 for all stats. With 8 All Combat Levels and a simple version of The Shield, he played fairly closely to the desired concept. Then I started to more closelt examine the source material in a bid to "Get It Right"...

 

Cap's pattern seems to be that he takes SMALL amounts of damage, fails UNIMPORTANT rolls, loses BATTLES. But he doesn't get seriously injured, he makes the rolls he must make and he wins the war.

 

His offensive capabilities are relatively low, but his ability to never go down too hard or too permanently seems on par with the MU's uber-bricks. hence the low Str but high Con, Bod, etc.

 

I'm trying model that in HERO terms without resorting to too much hand waving.

[Force]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

My first pass at Steve Rogers was to take NCM and multiply it by 1.25 for all stats. With 8 All Combat Levels and a simple version of The Shield, he played fairly closely to the desired concept. Then I started to more closelt examine the source material in a bid to "Get It Right"...

 

Cap's pattern seems to be that he takes SMALL amounts of damage, fails UNIMPORTANT rolls, loses BATTLES. But he doesn't get seriously injured, he makes the rolls he must make and he wins the war.

 

His offensive capabilities are relatively low, but his ability to never go down too hard or too permanently seems on par with the MU's uber-bricks. hence the low Str but high Con, Bod, etc.

 

I'm trying model that in HERO terms without resorting to too much hand waving.

 

You know why all that happens? It's in a comic book with a writer's prerogative.

 

It is impossible to define him in hero game terms without making him 'super-human' to make him 'true' to the 'source material'.

[austenandrews]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

It sounds like you're taking a Combat Luck-type approach. Cap's not actually as tough as a brick, but the end result is kind of the same, so you build him that way numerically. I'd be comfortable with that approach only if you included Combat Luck-style Limitations. In the thick of battle he's essentially a brick, but you can still take him down with a surprise whack on the back of his head.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

You know why that happens? It's in a comic book with a writer's prerogative.

He's supposed to be the pinnacle of homo sapiens evolution. From the man on the streets POV, he IS "super human". He's just more "human" than "super" to most.

 

It is impossible to define him in hero game terms without making him 'super-human' to make him 'true' to the 'source material'.

That's a bit oversimplistic IMHO. Cap HAS a distinct niche in the MU, and most writers stay true to it.

 

1. Inspiring and fearless role model.

2. Brillant tactician and teamwork expert.

3. low level Brick/medium high level MA/low level EB combat archtype. Very flexible, very hard to play well.

4. Compared to the average MU super:

a. Lower offensive capabilities.

b. similar to slightly slower movement.

c. VERY skillfull.

d. easy to scratch, VERY hard to hurt.

e. ABSOLUTELY indomitable. Will never give up and never quit.

 

So,

25 or 30 Str.

23, 26, or 28 Dex.

Enough Con for 10 ED, 13 REC, 62 END, 63 STUN. Best fit is 35 Con.

25 Bod. This guy is hard to stop and HARD to permanently injure or kill.

5 or 6 SPD.

Everything else at 23 or 25 or the metaphorical equivalent.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

It sounds like you're taking a Combat Luck-type approach. Cap's not actually as tough as a brick' date=' but the end result is kind of the same, so you build him that way numerically. I'd be comfortable with that approach only if you included Combat Luck-style Limitations. In the thick of battle he's essentially a brick, but you can still take him down with a surprise whack on the back of his head.[/quote']

Wth the minor tweak that you can take him down TEMPORARILY or hurt him SOME when you take him by surprise, I completely agree.

 

So his offensive capabilities and passive defenses are unimpressive, The Shield only covers the 60-180 degree front arc, he has to outthink his opponents to win, etc, etc

 

But he is almost never surprised and has _enormous_ but not miraculous) recovery abilities.

 

Yep. That's what I'm trying to build.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Again I disagree that Captain America using his shield has any sort of limitation on where and from what angle an attack comes from. He can easily fli, pivot, or move to interpose the shield. So arrangement is a bogus limitation, as was bulky.

 

 

Hawksmoor

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

...I disagree that Captain America using his shield has any sort of limitation on where and from what angle an attack comes from. He can easily fli' date=' pivot, or move to interpose the shield. So arrangement is a bogus limitation...[/quote']

He can't protect himself with The Shield if attacks come in simultaneously 180' apart, PARTICULARLY if one attack is Ranged and the other is HTH. That's been shown repeatedly in the source material.

 

I want whoever is playing him to have the same issues.

[Vorsch]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Several write ups have cap at pd and ed of 10, isint that rather low?

 

I know he has the shield but in a fight with his evil clone/ onother equivalent MA hes dishing out huge damage compared to his defences.

 

This is a two guys in a gym type of fight, str 30 + M strike and a couple of DC gives 10d6 as his normal ability. he needs to be tougher than 10, 20? so he can atleast spar with himself for more than 1 turn.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield?

 

Remember he +is+ wearing 10/10 rDef Armor and/or has some Combat Luck as well. Assuming an 11-12d6 average attack campaign, he should have defenses of 22-28 (in 11d6 average) or 24-30 (in 12d6 average) iff he's average to low average easy to hit. He's VERY hard to hit, so his DEF needs to be lower for balance purposes. As the lethality of the campaign goes up, so should his DEF to keep him balanced.

 

Offense wise, in a campaign where the average attack is 11-12d6, his attack is slightly lower at 10d6 (25 Str) or average at 12d6 (30 Str). At SPD 5 or SPD 6, he'll tend to be low average to average SPD wise.

 

OTOH, =skillwise= he's WAY up there. Remember that the best model I've been able to make for his MA skills is a relatively simple (but still extensive, and therefore EXPENSIVE) set of maneuvers and 6-8 CSLs with them. On full defense, he's practically untouchable. On offense, he is almost always hitting the average super; but this is mitigated by the fact that his damage is on the low side and all his attacks are vs PD (although he has some NNDs and Grab/Throws).

 

EDIT: Agents are an utter waste of dice rolling against this character unless they grossly outnumber him and/or manage to attain a serious tactical advantage. Even at that, with a 35 Con and ~63 STUN he is very hard to Stun or Knock Out. The 25 Bod means he is very hard to permanently damage (frankly a lower Bod and Regeneration would be more point efficient, but that is not the character concept).

 

There's a very good chance that Steve will be maneuvering at some or all of your campaign CV level caps much of the time. If the player decides to Haymaker that EB, Steve may be at ALL of your CV and damage campaign caps at that time. The player's strategy and tactics are CRUCIAL to this character's effectiveness.

 

This is a "thinking player's" character.