Biggest whine about HERO

[atlascott]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

"4. HERO isn't meant to be, built to be, and wouldn't be better of trying to be a mass market broad appeal RPG."

 

 

I strongly dispute this unsupported conclusion. HERO is not appreciably more difficult than memorizing the d20 quagmire. Different marketing would marry the SK rules with some source material with pretty art and make a winner out of it. If HERO concedes that it will not do better market penetration than it has now, they should shutter their windows now.

[atlascott]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I beg to differ. Product sales are not the only revenue generation strategy' date=' and not even necessarily the best one at that since any product sale tends strongly to be a one time profit per customer without any recurring revenue.[/quote']

 

Any company that gives up trying to upsell, or foster return customers, is committing financial suicide. MOST companies ABSOLUTELY RELY on return customer and being able to upsell customers once they are 'in the store.' I would bet that most, if not all, HERO customers bought more than one book.

 

This is a tabletop game company. How do you propose that they derive revenue from anything but selling their game? They choose not to license their game system IP; they do not have a genre or game world worthy of someone paying to license it over time; they do not offer any other product or service of which I am aware that would provide a sure revenue stream over time.

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Who said anything about a drastic change to the game. I am and always have been' date=' talking about the way the game is MARKETED. Please don't put words in my, or anyone else's, mouth to sustain a non-argument.[/quote']

 

If you don't see where I get the idea that people are proposing drastic changes to the game, you're not paying enough attention to these forums. Drastic changes are proposed here every day.

 

As for putting words in your mouth, I didn't accuse you of saying anything. You asked a question, and I answered it.

 

Why do some people get so rude and angry just because we are discussing ways in which to make this great game better' date=' with a broader appeal?[/quote']

 

Also, the phrase "make this great game better" implies some kind of change to the game. So stop acting like you've been gravely wronged.

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Hey, one of our lead programmers still extols and rants about the value of flat ascii files and how bad databases are. HERo for me is a definite nostalgia hit, as it is so rare these days to find any product, any copmplex product which proudly tries to be the same as it was 20 years ago.

 

very few things in my life or the world around me are "much the same as" they were 20 years ago.

 

 

Alternative phrasing: We are playing a system with such a dogmatic core base that it studiously avoids all the RPG evolutions and advancements over two decades of development and change in the industry and its fan base.

 

One man's "lack of compromise" is perhaps another man's stagnation.

 

 

 

 

Very little. it has evolved and adapted and responded to its changing market.

 

the initial D&D and eve Ad&D 1e were RPgs built for a time when the normal RPG meant walf to the door, open the door kill the monster and take his stuff, Where equipment lists tended to be the bulk of a scifi rpg and so forth.

 

In between now and then, over the 30 years or so, games have evolved and broader scopes like stories, theme, style, and such have become more of a staple. The WW-evolution was in part so dramatic because of how it clashed with what was there at the time.

 

Sure, i guess one could just dismiss all these as "fads" and happily ignore them, but for my money (and being as i buy a lot of gaming stuff, thats more than just turn of phrase), they were growth and casually dismissing them and happily clinging to 20 year old game design as a good thing is strange.

 

or put another way... if DnD 3.0 had been "a return to tradition" and another reprint of say Ad&D or the original three books, with 95% or more being identical to the old stuff, would you be praising them for sticking to their core system or ridiculing them for having not bothered to learn any of the lessons from the last 30 years?

 

For me, DND 3.0 was radically different mechanically, still hanging on to the basic setting elements that they felt were "holy cows", but mechanically a reinvention learning from the various RPG industry evolvements.

 

thats not something i would choose to fault them for.

 

honestly, if i told most people "this is basically the same game from 20 years ago reprinted" it wouldn't be a selling point.

 

An exception for me of course were the traveller books last year where they reprinted the old black books... mine were long lost and i wanted them for nostalgia.

 

IMO, the moment a company starts making serious mechanical changes to the game at the behest of the marketing department is the moment a game has jumped the shark, and would have been better off dying gracefully.

 

As for AD&D in particular, having at least read through every edition that's been out, I really can't see where they've learned much of anything.

[tesuji]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

As for AD&D in particular, having at least read through every edition that's been out, I really can't see where they've learned much of anything.

 

thats amazing...

 

the most glaringly obvious "things they have learned" from my use are...

 

1. people want more customizable characters than the rigid classes of 20 years ago provide (feats, assigning attributes as you advance, easy multiclassing, PRCs, etc as well as rules in both PHb and DMG on customizing classes themselves show their learning.)

2. people want more than just a combat resolution system. (skills & non-combat challenges show their learning)

 

Neither of these really existed IIRC at all in AS&D 1e but are evident at a glance in 3.0.

 

i really cannot imagine what you read if you missed these, and others, entirely in your read thru?

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

It seems that you've been doing "the namecalling pool" nearly the entire time you've posted responses. Needless it is.

 

Are we reading different threads? If you've got an example of my namecalling of some individual poster on this thread, I would like to see it.

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

thats amazing...

 

the most glaringly obvious "things they have learned" from my use are...

 

1. people want more customizable characters than the rigid classes of 20 years ago provide (feats, assigning attributes as you advance, easy multiclassing, PRCs, etc as well as rules in both PHb and DMG on customizing classes themselves show their learning.)

2. people want more than just a combat resolution system. (skills & non-combat challenges show their learning)

 

Neither of these really existed IIRC at all in AS&D 1e but are evident at a glance in 3.0.

 

i really cannot imagine what you read if you missed these, and others, entirely in your read thru?

 

 

It's still level-based, still class-based, still uses the single d20 for rolls, and still has armor that makes you harder to hit instead of blunting inflicted damage.

 

In other words, they haven't learned anything important.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Has this threads half-life been reached yet? Or is there a pressing need to squeeze out some more bad feelings, bitterness, and divisiveness in the Hero Community as we yet indulge in more griping about a game most of us here still seem to enjoy?

[atlascott]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

If you don't see where I get the idea that people are proposing drastic changes to the game, you're not paying enough attention to these forums. Drastic changes are proposed here every day.

 

As for putting words in your mouth, I didn't accuse you of saying anything. You asked a question, and I answered it.

 

Also, the phrase "make this great game better" implies some kind of change to the game. So stop acting like you've been gravely wronged.

 

 

Anyone can take any comment and bend it to make it fit their criteria for extending a non-argument. It gets obnoxious when you wont let it go AFTER I clarify that I am not advocating drastic change, other than in essentially marketing, especially when you end your terse post with crap like the "gravely wronged" comment above. Like a bird that befouls a freshly waxed car, you swoop down and smear what is otherwise perfectly clear with your purposeful misunderstanding. I am not acting :gravely wronged", but you ARE acting rude and its offensive, and inappropriate to my comments. I can only guess it is to get us off topic from the fact that this is a great game that needs a different marketing approach to be successful. And, you know, let me clarify "successful" so you dont warp it to mean something completely ridiculous: in this context, it mean that more people are playing the game, and more people are buying the product, so that the company can sustain itself and make a profit for its principals.

[atlascott]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I can glean the rules of trolling from this thread (2 easy steps):

 

1. Misstate/take out of context the argument of whoever you want to flame and take it to an illlogical extreme.

 

Example:

 

Comment 1: I would like to see changes in presentation of the existing HERO rules so that more people would play, buy the books, and support the authors.

 

Comment 2: I cannot see how any of you can call yourselves HERO fans if you are advocating the wholesale revision of the entire game system and the destruction of all that is good and crunchy.

 

2. Imply characteristics to your 'opponent' that come just short of namecalling, but are offensive enough to satisy your desire to insult without getting banned from the boards.

 

Comment 1: Why do people have to get so nasty when we all want whats best for the HERO system and the principals of the company?

 

Comment 2: You must not be paying attention. Stop acting like you have been gravely wronged.

 

There may be more steps but I am still learning. I remember a few pages ago that this was a really interesting, constructive thread...

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Anyone can take any comment and bend it to make it fit their criteria for extending a non-argument. It gets obnoxious when you wont let it go AFTER I clarify that I am not advocating drastic change' date=' other than in essentially marketing, especially when you end your terse post with crap like the "gravely wronged" comment above. Like a bird that befouls a freshly waxed car, you swoop down and smear what is otherwise perfectly clear with your purposeful misunderstanding. I am not acting :gravely wronged", but you ARE acting rude and its offensive, and inappropriate to my comments. I can only guess it is to get us off topic from the fact that this is a great game that needs a different marketing approach to be successful. And, you know, let me clarify "successful" so you dont warp it to mean something completely ridiculous: in this context, it mean that more people are playing the game, and more people are buying the product, so that the company can sustain itself and make a profit for its principals.[/quote']

 

 

You don't like my answer to your question, so you accuse me of putting words in your mouth. When I explain why I gave that answer, you accuse me of purposefully misunderstanding you.

 

Get over it. This isn't about you. You're not the only person in this discussion, and the answer to your question wasn't about you, it was about the subject and why people get fed up with it. You wanted to know why people get snippy about this, and the answer to that question goes far beyond anything you may or may not have said. Deal with it.

 

People get fed up with this kind of discussion because there's always someone talking about how something needs to be changed, and many of them are talking about drastic changes to the system, not marketing changes. And no matter what you're proposing, there's always someone who seems to think that HERO will always be a failure until it overtakes d20 in the market.

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Comment 1: Why do people have to get so nasty when we all want whats best for the HERO system and the principals of the company?

 

missing steps...

 

Comment 2: You must not be paying attention. Stop acting like you have been gravely wronged.

 

 

Sure, it went that way, if you ignore everything that came between, where you showed you weren't paying attention, and were acting like you'd been wronged.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

 

Originally Posted by tesuji

 

the most glaringly obvious "things they have learned" from my use are...

 

1. people want more customizable characters than the rigid classes of 20 years ago provide (feats, assigning attributes as you advance, easy multiclassing, PRCs, etc as well as rules in both PHb and DMG on customizing classes themselves show their learning.)

2. people want more than just a combat resolution system. (skills & non-combat challenges show their learning)

 

Neither of these really existed IIRC at all in AS&D 1e but are evident at a glance in 3.0.

 

It's still level-based, still class-based, still uses the single d20 for rolls, and still has armor that makes you harder to hit instead of blunting inflicted damage.

 

In other words, they haven't learned anything important.

Here we have the perfect example of "One man's meat is another man's poison."

 

DnD started from a simple caricature based system and has evolved towards more complexity. However, the basic caricature design is difficult to modify past a certain point and things start to break.

 

OTOH, HERO started with a large amount of complexity (8 primary stats, 6 figured stats, Skills, Powers, a relatively complex combat system, etc, etc) and has ALSO increased in complexity as it evolved. The big difference is that the basic design of HERO is more "complexity-friendly". Good in that it will not groan under weight that will break the back of DnD. Bad in that it leads to cavalier attitude towards increasing complexity that represents an ever greater barrier to playability by the novice or average gamer.

 

IMHO, what threads like this SHOULD be doing is exploring how we can strike the best balance between system complexity, playability, and popularity since all three things are critical to HERO's survival.

 

Whether people like it or not, compromises will be needed if we are to find the optimum solution.

 

In particular, as much as I respect the "Inde" POV, HERO has to be as profitable as possible over the widest range of audiences it can for survival's sake. Thankfully, commercial success is measured by a very objective metric: you either make money or you don't. And the size of "make money" is ALSO an objective metric.

[Viper3220]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Dive For Cover... and it's side effects