Biggest whine about HERO

[Ki-rin]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I have to agree with Force, Fox1, and others who say we have a complexity problem.

 

A d20 game or combat can be up and running, even with inexperienced players, much faster than a HERO one can. And I say that as a d20 opponent and a HERO apologist.

 

Barring a psychological problem (or working in the Gaming Industry... ...hold it, may be the same thing ), gaming is a recreational activity. People do it to have fun, and it has to compete with everything else people might want to do to have fun with their increasingly more scarce leisure time.

 

From that POV, complexity for Complexity's Sake is A Problem by a few metrics.

 

We have to make HERO fun people, or not enough people are going buy/play HERO.

 

...and we will be back to the days of there being no HERO.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

The game is not just a 'tad' flexible. It's so flexible that you don't even know how much damage a sword does when you pick up the core rulebook!

 

Maybe you should read the book you're criticizing.

 

5th and 5ER are good books for veterans of the hero system. However, can you imagine someone brand new to it feeling a bit overwhelmed?

 

Sidekick was created specifically to address this concern. You are harping on a non-issue.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I have to agree with Force, Fox1, and others who say we have a complexity problem.

 

A d20 game or combat can be up and running, even with inexperienced players, much faster than a HERO one can. And I say that as a d20 opponent and a HERO apologist.

 

Barring a psychological problem (or working in the Gaming Industry... ...hold it, may be the same thing ), gaming is a recreational activity. People do it to have fun, and it has to compete with everything else people might want to do to have fun with their increasingly more scarce leisure time.

 

From that POV, complexity for Complexity's Sake is A Problem by a few metrics.

 

We have to make HERO fun people, or not enough people are going buy/play HERO.

 

...and we will be back to the days of there being no HERO.

 

I don't thnk the rules of actual play are much more difficult than any other game, d20 included.

 

You can summarise them all in a page or two if you try: the biggest bit is combat, and, really, that's NOT that difficult if you leave out all the optional stuff. There's a two pages combat summary in the 'Free Stuff' section and that could be trimmed considerably, both for size and clarity.

 

What definitely IS more complex is the character creation aspect. This could be solved by creating a dozen starting characters for each genre and distributing them on the web through the Herogames site. Each character should have two character sheets, a construction sheet (which could be posted elsewhere, if you like, out of sight, like ) and a play sheet. Leave out ALL the construction numbers on the play sheets. Keep the construction of the characters simple and robust, but reasonably varied. Simple, straightorward, recognisable STARTING CHARCTERS.

 

REALLY work on the layout of the play sheet so that it is easy to read, and all the important information is clearly legible and obvious. What do you really need? Characteristic rolls, OCV/DCV, Phases, attack and defence data. Even the Sidekick Character Sheet in the 'Free Stuff' section looks quite intimidating, largely becasue of all the numbers attached to the characteristics. GET RID OF ALL NUMBERS NOT ACTUALLY USED IN PLAY.

 

Powers, abilities and magics should have a few words of description and a summary of the advantages and limitations LEAVING OUT all the +1/2 and -3/4 stuff. Sod character development: this is a baited hook not a full meal they're getting. NO NUMBERS NOT ACTUALLY USED IN PLAY.

 

DO NOT add in stuff like background, description, name or even gender - the player can do that. All you need it a few words of 'concept' description - teleporting powerhouse, flying energy blaster, animal summoning wizard, Victorian Consulting Detective, barbarian scout, whatever.

 

Minor customisation (changing skills, for example) should probably be encouraged.

 

This would mean that the game can be played just as quickly as any other, cutting out that HUGE first hurdle: character creation.

 

I know there is a fine line between giving stuff away as a loss-leader and giving stuff away you'll see no return from, but internet downloads of this sort cost nothing beyond the cost of the time to create them, and, well, given that all the basic combat rules are ALREADY available from the hero website as a free pdf, and given that ANY NUMBER of characters could be trawled from the net if you wanted to, web publishing a free starter kit with characters as described above can't be giving away more than there is at present: hell, why not throw in a basic starting scenario as well: a try before you buy deal. Once people have played the game, I have little doubt they'll want to play more. It is a good game. It is just intimudating to see all those numbers sometimes - it is something you don't see with most other games bacause most other games don't use this method of character creation.

 

I am quite sure that is what most potential players find most off-putting. I'm equally sure that if we showed potential players that the construction data is something they can basically ignore if they want, they'll become actual players, then actual product purchasers.

 

Anyway. My gripe? Numbers. There: I even made it on-track. Kinda

[Ki-rin]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

(much snippage)

...What definitely IS more complex is the character creation aspect. This could be solved by creating a dozen starting characters for each genre and distributing them on the web through the Herogames site. Each character should have two character sheets, a construction sheet (which could be posted elsewhere, if you like, out of sight, like ) and a play sheet. Leave out ALL the construction numbers on the play sheets. Keep the construction of the characters simple and robust, but reasonably varied. ...

(much snippage)

Good post, and I agree on all points.

 

Additionally, IMHO RDU Neil Hit The Nail On The Head: HERO is a great way to build "cars", but it doesn't provide a "car".

 

The vast majority of newbies or casual gamer want to buy a "car", not a manufacturing plant. They don't want to be overwhelmed by the options on a particular "car" either. They want multiple easy to understand models with relatively few options per model. That's where DnD began and history proves the approach works.

 

There may be a valid analogy to computer UI design. GUI's are restrictive, but intuitive and even newbies can be productive with them reasonably quickly. Command line interfaces are much more flexible, and allow far more to be done once you know them, but are MUCH harder to learn and get productive with. Not surprisingly, the experts like CLIs and everyone else likes GUIs. ...and there are far more "everyone else" than experts. CLIs cater to a niche market. GUIs to the mass market. Guess which is worth more $$$?

 

SideKick helps, especially the "quick start" character design stuff, but IMHO it's not going to be enough.

 

"The first one is free." has a history as long as Commerce. I agree with you that HERO needs to do more of it.

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Funny, I was about 15 minutes into my D&D experience when I started wanting something less simplistic and restricting.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Powers, abilities and magics should have a few words of description and a summary of the advantages and limitations LEAVING OUT all the +1/2 and -3/4 stuff. Sod character development: this is a baited hook not a full meal they're getting. NO NUMBERS NOT ACTUALLY USED IN PLAY.

 

When working of my FH game, I wrote my spells up like this, just to see how "system invisible" I could make them. Pretty much actually. I listed the end cost, the magic roll modifier, the actual game effects (ie dice if needed) and a description.

 

Then a footnote with cost, and how it was built. Worked fairly well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Funny' date=' I was about 15 minutes into my D&D experience when I started wanting something less simplistic and restricting.[/quote']

 

Exactly. Try out the basic model on the web site, and fifteen minutes later you're parting with $50 in the shop. For those GUI lovers (good analogy, RDUNeil), there's Sidekick first and then the full user-manual later on (and they'll have spent more getting there!

[Vorsch]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I always thought that alot of DnD cantrip type spells were esentially unbuildable due to massive AP costs with lots of weird lims.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

The game is not just a 'tad' flexible. It's so flexible that you don't even know how much damage a sword does when you pick up the core rulebook!

 

did the pages with sample weapons just dissolve recently?

 

5th and 5ER are good books for veterans of the hero system. However, can you imagine someone brand new to it feeling a bit overwhelmed?

 

About as overwhelmed as anyone picking up a new game system, I would imagine.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

When working of my FH game, I wrote my spells up like this, just to see how "system invisible" I could make them. Pretty much actually. I listed the end cost, the magic roll modifier, the actual game effects (ie dice if needed) and a description.

 

Then a footnote with cost, and how it was built. Worked fairly well.

 

I build characters using a simple spreadsheet, then copy them out onto a snazzy folding character sheet with a picture on the front, descriptions of powers, and lots of chatty stuff about favourite tactics, role playing hooks and such like. On the back is a table of favourite manoeuvres with OCV and DVC and damage pre-calculated for that character. I stole this idea from a friend of mine who used it very successfully on me.

 

When I'm running a game, they get the snazzy sheet, I keep the nuts and bolts one in case they want to push or aid something, or get drained.

 

I find it really helps the players to forget they are playing Hero and get on with playing the game, which in turn means they think Hero is a nice straight forward game with low intimidation factor.

 

Some players are now asking for the utilitatian speadsheet printout too. I have no problem with this: they're hooked

[RDU Neil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Exactly. Try out the basic model on the web site' date=' and fifteen minutes later you're parting with $50 in the shop. For those GUI lovers (good analogy, RDUNeil), there's Sidekick first and then the full user-manual later on (and they'll have spent more getting there![/quote']

 

 

Wasn't me... was Ki-Rin... but it WAS a good analogy.

 

Uh... which analogy, actually? The Car one was mine... but I like the "GUI" one as well... I'm just not a computer guy.

[tesuji]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Nothing that HERO does can change this as long as it remains a constuction based system. Everyone can't master those concepts. Thus HERO at best will remain as it is, a small market share of high quality (at least for those who understand how to best used the core mechanics). To whine about this, is to ask for a completely different game.

 

Actually, i would phrase this differently...

 

no matter how much it props up the local egos, its really not a case of all, or i would suspect even "most",those who reject it being "unable" to master the system. its really not "so hard only us really smart pro hero dudes can get it."

 

Its a case of "won't" not "can't".

its a case of "i shouldn't need to do all this work to start a game." or "i wont do all this work just to start a game." as opposed to the seemingly oft preferred hero perspective of "i am not smart enough."

 

After a while, in any system, a Gm will branch out more and figure out more and be willing to do more, but for some/many people throwing them in at the ground floor with build-from-scratch isn't the most successful approach.

 

For me, the genre books did not help much. I too found Champions and Star HERo (esp Star HERO) not useful at all. I never even bothered with Fh after being told repeatedly that these were what the genre books were supposed to be, so i cannot say whether it was any different.

 

"To ask for a completely different game..." is a bit ff the mark to me. See, HERo isn't a game, its a toolkit for building games. So its more like to ask for a game in the first place".

 

but, hey, i am sure all the 'tude and the "can't master" and all that helps bring new people to hero right, left and sideways. So, keep it up you guys!

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

There may be a valid analogy to computer UI design. GUI's are restrictive, but intuitive and even newbies can be productive with them reasonably quickly. Command line interfaces are much more flexible, and allow far more to be done once you know them, but are MUCH harder to learn and get productive with. Not surprisingly, the experts like CLIs and everyone else likes GUIs. ...and there are far more "everyone else" than experts. CLIs cater to a niche market. GUIs to the mass market. Guess which is worth more $$$?

 

The analogy extends further than you'd like to think.

 

There's only one OS with any significant share of the market. Other OSs that try to compete on its terms are squeezed out or languish in obscurity. Most users will never use another OS in their lives, and have no desire to change or indication that they should change. The only OSs that survive and flourish (relatively speaking) cater to experienced users looking to do things that the dominant OS can't handle.

 

HERO will never have the RPG mass market. It isn't up for grabs any more than the OS mass market is.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

HERO will never have the RPG mass market. It isn't up for grabs any more than the OS mass market is.

You say that like it's a bad thing. I for one am perfectly happy Hero is not targeted at the least common denominator amongst RPG gamers. It may never be "the big RPG system," but that doesn't mean it's not a perfectly good system in and of itself. Those people who are unwilling to put a minimum of work into learning the system are people that are better off with "Windows" rather than "Linux."

[Ki-rin]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

The analogy extends further than you'd like to think.

 

There's only one OS with any significant share of the market. Other OSs that try to compete on its terms are squeezed out or languish in obscurity. Most users will never use another OS in their lives, and have no desire to change or indication that they should change. The only OSs that survive and flourish (relatively speaking) cater to experienced users looking to do things that the dominant OS can't handle.

 

HERO will never have the RPG mass market. It isn't up for grabs any more than the OS mass market is.

That's a bit too pessimistic IME and IMHO. Monopolies tend not to innovate and be arrogant about their place in the market. That often leads to them losing business and sometimes even their monopoly.

 

American car companies vs The Rest of The World.

IBM vs other computer companies.

Intel vs AMD.

IE vs Firefox.

M$ vs Open Source.

Etc.

 

Does the smaller player have a harder job? Absolutely. Is it an impossible job? No.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

You say that like it's a bad thing. I for one am perfectly happy Hero is not targeted at the least common denominator amongst RPG gamers. It may never be "the big RPG system' date='" but that doesn't mean it's not a perfectly good system in and of itself. Those people who are unwilling to put a minimum of work into learning the system are people that are better off with "Windows" rather than "Linux." [/quote']

 

::throws virtual chocolate bourbon-filled candy in appreciation

 

 

And yes, I'm perfectly happy with Windows.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

That's a bit too pessimistic IME and IMHO. Monopolies tend not to innovate and be arrogant about their place in the market. That often leads to them losing business and sometimes even their monopoly.

 

IE vs Firefox.

M$ vs Open Source.

No.

 

you think the last two are good examples?

 

 

sometimes, name recognition and presence beat out quality. That's why D&D continues.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

Well...I think it's unfortunate that Hero's sales aren't commensurate with the quality of the product. But no, I wouldn't want them to change their focus.

 

What I would like is for certain individuals to recognize that the RPG market isn't the ripe plum waiting for the picking they think it is, and that the legions of casual newbies looking for a game other than D&D/d20 they think DoJ should be catering to just aren't out there.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Originally Posted by Ki-rin

That's a bit too pessimistic IME and IMHO. Monopolies tend not to innovate and be arrogant about their place in the market. That often leads to them losing business and sometimes even their monopoly.

 

IE vs Firefox.

M$ vs Open Source.

you think the last two are good examples?

 

sometimes, name recognition and presence beat out quality. That's why D&D continues.

Yes, I do since they are eroding M$'s market share as we speak.

 

God Willing and for The Consumer's sake, I hope Firefox and Linux will both achieve >= 1/3 market share. That's enough for neither IE nor M$ to have a monopoly any longer. At which point M$ will have to innovate and compete of price again. Both good things.

 

As to the other, I disagree with slamming DnD's "quality". Leisure time activities like RPGs are fundamentally different as products and a market from business critical SW like browsers and Operating Systems.

 

DnD's not an inferior quality product, it's a DIFFERENT quality product. As long as TSR/WoTC/Hasbro does a better job of catering to buyers needs and wants, they will sell more product than their competitors. In the leisure market, that's a strong argument that it's a BETTER product. OTOH, it's clear that DnD is crumbling under its own weight as the band-aids get applied on top of the existing band-aids on top of the ...

 

So there's an opportunity for something to replace d20 and actually BE a decent RPG tool kit. IMHO, HERO isn't either and we need something like a d100 based system, but IME HERO and GURPS are the best approaches so far in the gaming industry.

[MitchellS]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

What I would like is for certain individuals to recognize that the RPG market isn't the ripe plum waiting for the picking they think it is' date=' and that the legions of casual newbies looking for a game other than D&D/d20 they think DoJ should be catering to just aren't out there.[/quote']

What would be even more interesting is if Hero old-timers would realize there are several hundred thousand gamers out there and that the four or so thousand who call the Hero System "home" are really just the tip of the iceberg. Hero Games can't keep producing buggy whips* forever.

 

* reference from the movie Other People's Money.

[incrdbil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

God Willing and for The Consumer's sake, I hope Firefox and Linux will both achieve >= 1/3 market share. That's enough for neither IE nor M$ to have a monopoly any longer. At which point M$ will have to innovate and compete of price again. Both good things.

 

You kow, people sadly have been tricked into thinking monopolies are always bad. Given a free market, and no artificial means, monopolies only exist as long as they outperform the competiton. But that's a whole other thread of pointless flames, whining, and angst that won't change anythign either. Let's try to keep our excercises in internet futility on individual tracks.

 

DnD's not an inferior quality product, it's a DIFFERENT quality product. As long as TSR/WoTC/Hasbro does a better job of catering to buyers needs and wants, they will sell more product than their competitors.

Oh heck, it's not like gamers even have needa and wants. Just get a a big group going, and its self sustaining at times. Gamers tend to become system fanatics that they'll often cling to a product long after the crashing reality of how crappy it is has become painfully obvious. (That's my weekly reference to Palladium games)

 

 

In the leisure market, that's a strong argument that it's a BETTER product. OTOH, it's clear that DnD is crumbling under its own weight as the band-aids get applied on top of the existing band-aids on top of the ...

 

Market cannabalism. It's amusing to watch history repeat itself in such a short span.

 

So there's an opportunity for something to replace d20 and actually BE a decent RPG tool kit.

 

Without taking on the name D&D, and maintaining its broken elements that have endured beyond reason, you just won't get that same recognition and market. I've given up ont he rationality of the gaming consumer.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

What would be even more interesting is if Hero old-timers would realize there are several hundred thousand gamers out there and that the four or so thousand who call the Hero System "home" are really just the tip of the iceberg. Hero Games can't keep producing buggy whips* forever.

 

* reference from the movie Other People's Money.

Considering there's over 3200 people registered on the official Hero board and fewer than half the people I know who play Hero post here I'd say you're underestimating Hero's numbers considerably.

 

We're not playing an obsolete system. We're playing a system solid enough in concept and execution not to have to rewrite itself every five years to follow the latest RPG fad. How much does the latest D&D iteration (3.5?) resemble the original three booklet set from 1976? Hardly at all.

[MitchellS]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Considering there's over 3200 people registered on the official Hero board and fewer than half the people I know who play Hero post here I'd say you're underestimating Hero's numbers considerably.

 

We're not playing an obsolete system. We're playing a system solid enough in concept and execution not to have to rewrite itself every five years to follow the latest RPG fad. How much does the latest D&D iteration (3.5?) resemble the original three booklet set from 1976? Hardly at all.

Darren was once asked about the 5,000 faithful purchasing books and he replied he wished it were 5,000. That leads me to believe that while there might be more than 5,000 playing the game there are not that many purchasing material. The more people playing the more people purchasing.

 

And as far as the message boards membership, the fact that you must register to post means there are several people who have joined only to ask a few questions and then never to be hard from again. I would be at least 20% of the registered members are not even active accounts, but that would just be a guess. The post bye "Sly" in the Fantasy Hero forum is a good example of that. He came, made 8 posts about the game, and has not been back for 17 months.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Reality Check Please.

 

IIRC, there was a discussion on this board where an official study was quoted as saying there are about 43.5 =MILLION= RPGer's ("...more than the population of the State of Iowa and enough to have 3 seats in Congress...").

 

1% of that is a 435,000 customer market.

 

So claims of "4,000" HERO gamers are "only" a factor of ~110 too low.

 

Let's try it another way. 4000 customers at say $50/year apiece profit is $200K/year. That's not enough to keep DOJ, or any other gaming publishing house, in business. In fact, no where near enough.

 

The 4,000 number must be a GROSS underestimate.

[atlascott]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Wasn't me... was Ki-Rin... but it WAS a good analogy.

 

Uh... which analogy, actually? The Car one was mine... but I like the "GUI" one as well... I'm just not a computer guy.

 

I think the GUI analogy was mine...but that's okay!

 

[edit] Ok, no, it WAS ki-Rin, I used the analogy on another thread![edit]

 

Why do some people get so rude and angry just because we are discussing ways in which to make this great game better, with a broader appeal?