Biggest whine about HERO

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Your character is something of a rarity' date=' having bought no fig on dex. I know of no other character that has this.[/quote']She has No Figured Characteristics only on the portion of her DEX which is Only in Hero ID. But you are correct; it's an uncommon construction.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

She has No Figured Characteristics only on the portion of her DEX which is Only in Hero ID. But you are correct; it's an uncommon construction.

 

DEX is the only stat for which "no figured" is point balanced. +10 DEX costs 30. +10 DEX no figured and +1 SPD costs 30.

 

Every other stat which produces figured loses more in figured than it gains in points taking -1/2 for No figured.

 

Oh, and when my charcater's DEX rises with xp, it starts as +1 DEX, No figured, act 11-, so I also use No figured (albeit in a very limited capacity) on DEX.

[David Blue]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Not to mention that taking BODY makes many players cautious and/or start thinking about retreating' date=' and of course each BODY done reduces the target's Stun by one as well. (It's remarkable how much their character taking a little BODY discombobulates some players, especially in Champions. Some people seem to feel "superhuman = invulnerable.")[/quote']It's not necessarily just a little BODY, and it's not just the unreasonably timid or frankly yellow that may be concerned.

 

With moderate beginning defences like 20 PD 20 ED including 10rPD and 10rED, a 2d6 HKA and 30 STR (4d6 Killing in effect) will do 4 BODY on average, and has a chance to leave Captain Reasonable dying in one hit. If you take one decent hit, the chances the next one will kill you or set you well on the road to death become excellent. This is a great advantage for Killing Attacks, among many great advantages.

 

In Hero, the points don't add up fairly. The game design is on the side of the gunsel, the fanged and clawed beast, and the shiv artist. A 3d6 RKA is superior to a 9d6 EB, for the same points. When you add advantages, like going against Flash Defence, Killing is even better. You gain benefits from using a Killing Attack compared to using a Normal Attack: doing BODY is better than doing STUN. The bias is systemic and pervasive, it is not just one unhappy oddity like the extremely obnoxious STUN multiple lottery.

 

The game is also on the side of players who complexificate their character sheets, and slow down the game for everyone. The more elaborate your power, the more adders it has, the more non-limiting limitations it piles on, the more potent it is likely to be, especially if you are trying to do something nasty and unheroic. The more number-crunching you go on with, the better. The more you obscure how your character works, the better.

 

Does a system that rewards being shifty and vicious, in and out of character, deserve to be called Hero? I would certainly agree to call it hex-map high action.

 

Of course, a strong enough gamemaster can override and overcome all these and any other vices.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

In Hero' date=' the points don't add up fairly. The game design is on the side of the gunsel, the fanged and clawed beast, and the shiv artist. A 3d6 RKA is superior to a 9d6 EB, for the same points. When you add advantages, like going against Flash Defence, Killing is even better. You gain benefits from using a Killing Attack compared to using a Normal Attack: doing BODY is better than doing STUN. The bias is systemic and pervasive, it is not just one unhappy oddity like the extremely obnoxious STUN multiple lottery.[/quote']I agree 100%. The system simulates the lethality of killing attacks quite well; but unfortunately that lethality is not part of many of the genres the system is supposedly designed to simulate.

 

OTOH, if a campaign's villain's are going to be throwing around 4d6 Killing Attacks routinely then Captain Reasonable needs to have more than 10 rPD and 10 BODY. It's all about the campaign's style. My PC survives just fine in our four color campaign with 12 PD/8 rPD, although she does get hurt fairly often. But we don't use many killing attacks except for ordinary guns, and the kind of foes that use guns seldom have enough CV to hit lightly defended characters like mine. But if I played her in most other campaigns I'd up her defenses by at least 25%.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

It's not necessarily just a little BODY, and it's not just the unreasonably timid or frankly yellow that may be concerned.

 

With moderate beginning defences like 20 PD 20 ED including 10rPD and 10rED, a 2d6 HKA and 30 STR (4d6 Killing in effect) will do 4 BODY on average, and has a chance to leave Captain Reasonable dying in one hit. If you take one decent hit, the chances the next one will kill you or set you well on the road to death become excellent. This is a great advantage for Killing Attacks, among many great advantages.

 

In Hero, the points don't add up fairly. The game design is on the side of the gunsel, the fanged and clawed beast, and the shiv artist. A 3d6 RKA is superior to a 9d6 EB, for the same points. When you add advantages, like going against Flash Defence, Killing is even better. You gain benefits from using a Killing Attack compared to using a Normal Attack: doing BODY is better than doing STUN. The bias is systemic and pervasive, it is not just one unhappy oddity like the extremely obnoxious STUN multiple lottery.

 

The game is also on the side of players who complexificate their character sheets, and slow down the game for everyone. The more elaborate your power, the more adders it has, the more non-limiting limitations it piles on, the more potent it is likely to be, especially if you are trying to do something nasty and unheroic. The more number-crunching you go on with, the better. The more you obscure how your character works, the better.

 

Does a system that rewards being shifty and vicious, in and out of character, deserve to be called Hero? I would certainly agree to call it hex-map high action.

 

Of course, a strong enough gamemaster can override and overcome all these and any other vices.

 

This is a great post, and I totally agree from a system POV. I think that is why I've seen a lot of classic Champions players become disenchanted with the system as Steve Long has produced it.

 

Steve and company have taken the route of "Because the system CAN do these things, we SHOULD do them, and canonize them in the main rules."

 

That is fine on a certain level... but it creates a very different "game" than originally existed. This is a system that supports Dark Champions much better than it does Champions, for the most part.

 

Now... IMO, this is fine in most cases. I've always played a more "gray" campaign style... a more gritty style of combat... so in general I like the options as far as supporting KAs. Hero System has created it's own "genre" more so than it has supported trying to faithfully emulate any comic/literary genre. Not so much as D&D, but this is a fact of RPGs and game design.

 

The system design supports a certain style of play.

 

I like the grittiness of Hero.

 

I do NOT like the complexification of Hero. Here also, I agree with you, that the munchkin is supported where the "reasonable" player is not. The specialist is king, and the generalist is hosed (both in play style and character concept.) This is where I feel DoJ has gone TOO far in the crunchiness department. Too much in the "If it CAN be done, it SHOULD be done" camp for me.

 

That is a play style issue, and we will always be at the mercy of who ever is at the reins of the game, that published product will support that style of play. The beauty of it is, you can easily chuck the stuff you don't like (sounds like Trebuchet's group has effectively chucked KAs for their game) and if you have the time and patience... make the style of game you wish by picking and choosing throught he book and customizing house rules.

 

That just takes time and effort and is NOT a selling point to the majority of gamers.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

That is a play style issue' date=' and we will always be at the mercy of who ever is at the reins of the game, that published product will support that style of play. The beauty of it is, you can easily chuck the stuff you don't like (sounds like Trebuchet's group has effectively chucked KAs for their game) and if you have the time and patience... make the style of game you wish by picking and choosing throught he book and customizing house rules.[/quote']I wouldn't say we've effectively chucked KA's so much as they've become less common. We're not running a street-level or even a city-based campaign; we're playing "The Avengers" of our four-color world and mooks with guns are "beneath us" for the most part. When we fight mooks at all, they're far more likely to be armed with high-tech blasters than assault rifles. That's not to say we never run into Killing Attacks; we do. But they're a lot less common than they would be in a more realistic game world. That's OK, because our campaign is much more escapism than exploring our collective angst.

 

I'm not certain the increased grittiness isn't almost an inescapable corellary of the shift towards being a "general purpose" game system from Hero's origins as a superhero game. Given that threads where we've discussed campaigns with Steve Long indicate he's very much on the same page as our group with regard to Champions, Steve may be as uncomfortable with the situation as some of are but can't see any viable way to correct the problem(if it is one) in light of the demands for increased realism by others; especially the Fantasy Hero crowd with a D&D background. Compromise never satisfies everybody.

[nexus]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I'm not certain the increased grittiness isn't almost an inescapable corellary of the shift towards being a "general purpose" game system from Hero's origins as a superhero game. Given that threads where we've discussed campaigns with Steve Long indicate he's very much on the same page as our group with regard to Champions' date=' Steve may be as uncomfortable with the situation as some of are but can't see any viable way to correct the problem(if it is one) in light of the demands for increased realism by others; especially the Fantasy Hero crowd with a D&D background. [/quote']

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here, Trebuchet. Most "genres" are deadlier than Four Color Superheroics and if the game system is going to be general purpose, its going to reflect that. Its an uneasy truce. Several people I have introduced into the system feel Hero isn't deadly enough, actually particularly at the low end. GURPS ran into a similar problem just from the opposite direction when it tried to do Supers, IMO.

 

Compromise never satisfies everybody.

 

"Compromise is the state where all parties are equally unhappy."

[atlascott]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Originally:

Great machine shop... no sports car.

 

(i.e. All system/mechanics... no real game.)

 

Currently:

Backward system design. Complexity required for playability, rather than simplicity for playability and complexity for depth/granularity ONLY IF DESIRED.

 

I second that sentiment, along with (as modified by?) the original poster's point.

[atlascott]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

For as much as I've seen that complaint' date=' I've never, ever, had it happen in any edition, all the way back to first. (Re; Stun Lottery)[/quote']

 

Well put. The use of multiple dice makes an extremely high roll MUSCH LESS STATISTICALLY LIKELY, than, for example, in a single-die damage rolling mechanic.

[atlascott]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

....Fix the Stun Multiple at 3. Even if you're using Hit locations, this is good for AEs/EXs.

 

Problem solved

 

 

KA's are too effective as written. Use the fixed 3 or, se 1/2d6 as the stun multiplier for KA (my preference).

[atlascott]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

And allow me to add my gripe. In order to play 5th Ed Champions, I have to buy the rules book, a campaign world book or two ( if I want to play in the official gamew world), and a Champions book that gives me no source info, but rather a bunch of essays about HOW to run a comic/superheroic game. (This holds true for all separate genres, too, so far--most notably, Space Hero, where they couldnt decide on ONE campaign setting, so they have different ones (Alien Wars and Terran Empire).

 

Now, I have a question. How many GM's are or ever will, in the HISTORY of ANY RPG or the industry in general, going to run a superheroic game if they have never read a comic book or been a fan of the genre? How many haters of Sci-Fi are going to run or play in a Space/Futuristic campaign?

 

Do RPG games create genres, or do books and movies and comics create genres or particular game worlds, and interest in genres, that motivate players and GM's to game in those genres?

 

WHY is Hero Games selling 300-plus books of essays teaching us such valuable knowledge as "In a superheroic campaign, players generally have superhuman powers" or "In a futuristic campaign, players travel in space, usually by use of a spacecraft."

 

The entire orientation of 5th Edition means that HERO system will remain a small, niche player.

[Phil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Oh boy. Where do we start?! I'll keep it to the main whines:

 

CHARS - No differentiation. STR. Cost. DEX. Utility. COM. Purpose?

MECHANICS - How many do we need? 9+char/3-char/3. 9+char/5. xd6 summed, minus Defence, subtracted from CHAR. xd6 summed, minus defence, compared to CHAR. xd6 summed, multiplied by d6-1, applied differently to defence.

MOVEMENT - Jumping linked to STR. Running and Swimming linked to nothing. Flight adds to STR. Pseudo-real physics applying to comic book movement.

And finally....

MEGASCALE - Nice idea, shame it's stupid

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Now' date=' I have a question. How many GM's are or ever will, in the HISTORY of ANY RPG or the industry in general, going to run a superheroic game if they have never read a comic book or been a fan of the genre? How many haters of Sci-Fi are going to run or play in a Space/Futuristic campaign?[/quote']

 

I'll have to agree.

 

I've found most the genre books completely useless. As a result I've stopped buying them.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I've found most the genre books completely useless. As a result I've stopped buying them.

I've found Star Hero to be immensely useful for my Champions campaign because we've got so much bleeding-edge technology. It really should have been titled Science Fiction Hero, but that's not as catchy.

 

Champions was good, but not as useful as I'd hoped for a group that has been running a superhero campaign for over a decade. For new players and new GMs to the genre I think it would be very useful. I know people who play Champions who are unfamiliar with comics. Two of the players in our campaign never read comics; their sole exposure to the genre has been from movies such as X-Men, Spider-Man, and The Incredibles. (You could do worse.)

 

Dark Champions is good for running action/adventure/spy stuff, but I really think it's weak for low powered supers. I'm looking forward to DC:TAS's release though to cover that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Biggest whine?

 

How every discussion about the system devolves into a bush war over killing attacks.

 

They are rubbish, but enough people like them that we ain't getting rid of 'em any time soon. Live with it.

 

To answer the question posed, in the spirit in which it was asked: the cover; it's boring. In fact the core rules book lacks excitement. I think this is partly because it is a generic system, partly because it is just presenting rules rather than concepts and genres and probably, to an extent, becasue it hasn't changed that much over the years. Consistency is good, but I recall an excitement when reading the BBB that I just don't get from FRED and 5ER. Also the sheer size is size: when the core rules are that voluminous you do need a bit of excitement to keep you going.

[Vorsch]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

All people who are at heart power gamers like killing attacks.

 

PS in champion its almost impossible to kill anything, but the stun is nice.

[atlascott]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I know people who play Champions who are unfamiliar with comics. Two of the players in our campaign never read comics; their sole exposure to the genre has been from movies such as X-Men' date=' Spider-Man, and The Incredibles. [/quote']

 

I disagree, and agree. No non-fan of superheroic comics is going to read a 300 page book of essays on coventions of the genre as an entre or motivator to play in the genre. First, it is pretty dry reading, lots of pages, that would take a person over the course of several days and lots of effort to read. In that time, they could watch the movies you are talking about, or actually READ some specially selected comics that would give them a much better feel for the genre. Second, how likely is it that a non-fan is going to invest that kind of effort into the project? No one is going to read a book like that if they are not already motivated to do so.

 

No one starts gaming in a genre by looking at a HUGE rule book and saying "Man, if I spend all weekend, I might get half way though this thing, whatever it is!"

 

They read a book, comic, or watch a movie (usually all three) and the game becomes an extension of the enjoyment the players got from other entertainment delivery systems.

 

The movies you cited are much more entertaining and fun and useful to getting a sense of the genre than the Champions book, and they can be watched, twice, in less time nad with less effort than reading Champions.

 

Want SCi-fi/future genre understanding? Alien movies, Firefly tv series boxed set, Bladerunner, Matrix trilogy, Starship Troopers. Forget Starhero for motivating anyone to do anything.

 

Using its current strategy, HERO system will die (or the current principals will sell), because we are not getting our proportionate share of new gamers, and the current strategy is effectively keeping older non-HERO system gamers away. Because we do NOT have a "race car" facade to compliment the best game system going. We have tinkerers and hobbyists completely missing the point and misleading HERO into making the gamer more esoteric, more details driven, larger, with more voluminous rules. Thinking like that in the PC industry would have meant no Apple, no Mac, and ergo, no Windows. The current Linux crowd would be the only ones using any computers--likely using command line os'es. They would have protected their mental investment in learning the rules of the programming laguage and their position as l33t, but the rest of the world would not be using computers as they do today, and Bill Gates would be selling used cars or something.

[DangerousDan]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

That's my big issue with the Stun Lottery/Multiple: Too many players (and GMs) see Killing Attacks as a more efficient way to end the combat with a big Stun Multiplier than a big normal attack. They may not be as efficient on average, but as a fight stopper they look a whole lot more attractive. And of course the fact that most character's resistant defenses are lower than their normal ones merely makes KA's more attactive, particularly with an Increased Stun Multiplier. Not to mention that taking BODY makes many players cautious and/or start thinking about retreating, and of course each BODY done reduces the target's Stun by one as well. (It's remarkable how much their character taking a little BODY discombobulates some players, especially in Champions. Some people seem to feel "superhuman = invulnerable.")

 

And as you pointed out, it's 100,776,696 times more likely you'll max out a 2d6 RKA attack than a 12d6 normal one. Some players may have figured this out by now.

 

Ayup!

 

OTOH, some players see the Killing Attack with a big stun multiplier as a way of having a chance at having an impact on a GM's creation that is otherwise impervious (0 BODY, 0 STUN) to the character's biggest attack. The One-Hex-Accurate advantage is similarly a method for a character to have a chance at hurting the GM's "Invulnerable due to much higher CV" monster.

 

Some GMs (and I do not mean Trebuchet or Mentor) deserve players with One-Hex-Accurate (Large) Killing Attacks.

[Force]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Using its current strategy' date=' HERO system will die (or the current principals will sell), because we are not getting our proportionate share of new gamers, and the current strategy is effectively keeping older non-HERO system gamers away. Because we do NOT have a "race car" facade to compliment the best game system going. We have tinkerers and hobbyists completely missing the point and misleading HERO into making the gamer more esoteric, more details driven, larger, with more voluminous rules. Thinking like that in the PC industry would have meant no Apple, no Mac, and ergo, no Windows. The current Linux crowd would be the only ones using any computers--likely using command line os'es. They would have protected their mental investment in learning the rules of the programming laguage and their position as l33t, but the rest of the world would not be using computers as they do today, and Bill Gates would be selling used cars or something.[/quote']

 

A comment first. I think it's possible that nothing can be done to save table top gaming, but that's another discussion and we can assume that we can try to 'save' the game. Now onto my opinion...

 

I agree with this sentiment. The game has become bloated. However, most table top games are bloated to begin with. D20 anyone? To much of the limited resources are being diverted into different genre's and trying to make a system a 'core system' instead of improving the system for the genre it was created for.

 

My two cents...

[DangerousDan]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Am I the only one who adds normal PD/ED to his armor on top of the resistant kind? You do realize normal PD and ED applies to the Stun of KAs as long as you have some resistant defenses, right?

 

Agreed. Even 25% DR can be a beautiful thing....

 

You are not the only one. I've got a character with between 8 and 16 PD, only 3 of which is resistant, plus 50% RDR. It isn't very hard to make him bleed, but it is kind of hard to stun him. And, since he's a Lycanthrope with 3 regeneration per turn, the bleeding isn't much of a problem. The only reason he has any resistant PD/ED at all is to allow his PD and ED to work against the stun of Killing Attacks.

 

Bleeding is not something to be avoided at all costs--it is merely part of the job.

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Because HERO is a system that lets you do almost anything, the GM of a Champions game has to be the one to put limits on what is allowed in a game. Yes, technically, someone can build that AVLD Does Body Killing Attack that is lethal to anyone who didn't happen to buy Resistant for their Power Defense or Mental Defense or whatever.

 

Does that mean that the GM is obligated to allow it? No. Not at all.

 

 

A lot of the criticism of HERO seems to come down to an assumption that the GM and the players will exercise absolutely no restraint or sense.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

A lot of the criticism of HERO seems to come down to an assumption that the GM and the players will exercise absolutely no restraint or sense.

It's the same kind of argument used against guns: "Because some people carry guns, we'll have absolute chaos in the streets! It'll be like Dodge City! Murders will skyrocket!" And of course, the reality is that most gun owners don't walk around gunning down everyone who cuts them off in traffic. Most of them mind their own business and are solid citizens. But a fewe bad apples (often using stolen guns) give everyone a bad name.

 

Abuse is always possible with any tool; be it fire, guns, or Hero. The difference is that Hero abuse can be prevented by the GM 100% of the time. With guns and fire, the authorities have to pick up the pieces after the fact. "Just say no" really works in role playing.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

A lot of the criticism of HERO seems to come down to an assumption that the GM and the players will exercise absolutely no restraint or sense.

 

Actually, a lot of the criticism of Hero (especially in it's current bloated form) is that it takes a rather long and steep learning curve for GMs and players before they can EFFECTIVELY exercise restraint and sense.

 

It is not easy or intuitive, and the gut reaction of "If it's in the rules, then it must be ok" should not be overlooked.

 

The fact that, as written, the system requires a whole bunch of ugly trial and error... collapsed games... unf-fun sessions... inadvertant munchkinism... etc., BEFORE you can eventually tweak and refine things into a playable form FOR ONE PLAY GROUP ONLY (a form which, by the way, is largely incompatible with any OTHER Hero game which has gone through the process and mutated into what THAT gaming group wants)

 

These are all really, REALLY negative bit to overcome for any game.

[MitchellS]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Because HERO is a system that lets you do almost anything, the GM of a Champions game has to be the one to put limits on what is allowed in a game. Yes, technically, someone can build that AVLD Does Body Killing Attack that is lethal to anyone who didn't happen to buy Resistant for their Power Defense or Mental Defense or whatever.

 

Does that mean that the GM is obligated to allow it? No. Not at all.

 

 

A lot of the criticism of HERO seems to come down to an assumption that the GM and the players will exercise absolutely no restraint or sense.

I think the criticism stems from the fact that there is no way of knowing that a 4d6 killing attack can have a far more dramatic impact on a game than a 12d6 eb has. The problem with Hero is that there are no firm guidelines. In Hero each GM must learn through experience how to bend the universal system to make it more genre like.

 

As Neil said every player, every game, every campaign is different. People in California aren't playing the same Champions game that people in New York are playing. Each person is playing a Hybrid Hero. I can go anywhere and play the same D&D game because it has real rules and guidelines. That's seldom the case with Hero, IMO.

[Fox1]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I can go anywhere and play the same D&D game because it has real rules and guidelines. That's seldom the case with Hero' date=' IMO.[/quote']

 

Nature of the beast.

 

HERO is a construction based system. That right there means that no two groups are going to be playing the same actual game for the simple reason that the system allows them to create the same item in completely different ways.

 

Heck, there are people like Ki-rin who thinks Captain America's shield needs the bulky, restrainable, OAF and Independant limits. With things like that going on- why would anyone think that they are playing the same game as another HERO using group.

 

This is only a problem however if you let it be a problem. I'm not playing in Ki-rin's group, what he does is completely unimportant to me. I only have to worry about what happens in my games.

 

For example, Killing Attacks and the stun lotto- not a problem for me. Never has been. A huge part of this thread has no relationship to what I do. And that's GOOD.

 

HERO is a complex game with a high learning curve. Again for me, this is GOOD. I've over and done with simple games like D&D. HERO is the only published system that holds my interest, in part due to it's complex construction and balance issues.

 

I'm all for a 'beginner's set' and setting for HERO, that would make a good intro to the game and help with the learning curve.

 

But as for the rest- let HERO be HERO. The system is designed for you to create your own campaign from the ground up- constructing everyone and everything within it to taste, that power also allows you to correct any problems you see in doing so. Do it.